11 ms·

Gabe from Microsoft here. Happy to answer any questions. A few links to help you explore the spec and tooling: - https://cnab.io https://cnab.io - https://du

by gabrtv 8y ago

Gabe from Microsoft here. Happy to answer any questions. A few links to help you explore the spec and tooling: - https://cnab.io https://cnab.io - https://duffle.sh/ https://duffle.sh/ - https://open.microsoft.com/2018/12/04/announcing-cnab-cloud-agnostic-format-packaging-running-distributed-applications/ https://open.microsoft.com/2018/12/04/announcing-cnab-cloud-...

politician 8y ago
Are there plans to work with CNCF on this spec to gain a broader consensus? EDIT: As a cloud systems architect, I view participation in CNCF as a positive signal.
- gabrtv 8y ago
  Yes. The intention has always been to put CNAB and related tooling into a foundation that offers vendor-neutral IP ownership. That could be CNCF, OCI, or something else.
donmcronald 8y ago
I wonder if I'm misunderstanding. Why would I want install, uninstall, etc. type actions running in a Docker container? Isn't that going to encourage people to spin up production environments that aren't reproducible? I'm not very familiar with Ansible, etc., so maybe tools like that have strategies for building deterministic environments, but I can see a lot of people putting `apt-get` or `yum` commands in an install script.
- mnoorali 8y ago
  The goal with CNAB is to be able to version your application with all of its components and then ship that as one logical unit making it reproducible. The package format is flexible enough to let you use the tooling that you're already using.
- gabrtv 8y ago
  CNAB makes reproducibility possible by providing unified lifecycle management, packaging, and distribution. Of course if bundle authors don't take care to work around problems with imperative logic, that's a risk. In practice, we see declarative models for building bundles offer more reproducibility. For example, see how you can build a CNAB using a Terraform base image: https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/terraform https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/terraform
  - donmcronald 8y ago
    Yeah. I read through some of those existing configs and I see how it works now. My first instinct when I see `cnab/app/run install` is to think it's for installing the app, but now I see it's for provisioning / deploying to the environment. As soon as I think of install, uninstall as deploy, undeploy then it clicks for me.
    - bacongobbler 8y ago
      We may want to discuss changing the keywords from install/uninstall to be deploy/uninstall if that helps signal to the user the intent behind those actions. That's great feedback, thank you!
politician 8y ago
Do CNAB bundles support the ability to specify where parameter and credential details might be fetched from? Currently, we provide developers with lab environments that wire together a small subset of containers under Docker compose for local development because running the full system is impractical. However, most of our lab environments may have important external dependencies (i.e. Slack, SMTP gateways, etc) that require configuration and often secrets. One challenge of maintaining these lab environments is keeping these external configuration details up to date, so it would be helpful if the CNAB spec allowed configuration of this sort to be provided by an external provider similar to how Docker images themselves are expected to be provided by a container registry. Have you anticipated this use case? If so, does CNAB have this type of support?
- gabrtv 8y ago
  Yes. See credential sets in the specification. https://github.com/deislabs/cnab-spec/blob/master/802-credential-sets.md https://github.com/deislabs/cnab-spec/blob/master/802-creden...
  - politician 8y ago
    Thanks Gabe, this looks promising.
throwaway981298 8y ago
When are you going to buy Docker Inc?
ravedave5 8y ago
I am one of those people who learn through examples. Do you have an example of using duffle for defining some sort of application? I work with this stuff and the websites are so abstract as to what it does and the spec is so low level...
- mnoorali 8y ago
  Absolutely! You can find some example bundles here: https://aka.ms/example-bundles https://aka.ms/example-bundles
  - mnoorali 8y ago
    Here is also a video of us running through some examples to give you a high level walkthrough of CNAB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26e5-UK4YRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26e5-UK4YRA
    - outside1234 8y ago
      I'm even more confused after watching this video. Is the right way to think about this that it is a common specification that enables helm and compose to interoperate?
    - chanezon 8y ago
      You can find some preview binaries of docker-app with CNAB support as well as a few simple examples at https://github.com/docker/app#cnab-support-preview https://github.com/docker/app#cnab-support-preview
polskibus 8y ago
Does it work with Windows Server and Windows 10 the same way that docker does? Can it be utilized without docker?
mcny 8y ago
Thank you for being here and answering questions. Is there any way you can (internally) push to remove roadblocks for the insanity of Windows Home vs Pro for Docker/Hyper-V? I know this isn't possible in the short run but I think it prevents a lot of children from getting started with Docker. Based on what Scott Guttrie's team has been able to accomplish, I am cautiously optimistic that this is possible if there is enough push for it from within Microsoft. Thank you once again for your support!
- beavis2 8y ago
  If you want to play the "think of the children" card, then let's start by discouraging development on Windows.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I would discourage development for Windows but not necessarily on Windows. I develop on Windows and deploy to Linux all of the time. I also have started using the Linux subsystem for Windows. I’ve been developing for and on Windows for over 20 years. The “Windows Tax” didn’t become a concern of mine until I started using cloud providers. The cost of Microsoft’s licenses was someone else’s problem. But, when every resource you use is tagged and it’s very clear how much you’re spending on an implementation, the double hit of Windows becomes real. First you pay more for Windows VMs than the same size Linux VMs and then you need more resources. I can do a lot with a 256Mb-512Mb RAM Linux VM. I at least need 4GB of RAM for Windows and that’s stretching it. On the other hand, I still love .Net Core but it’s not getting the uptake that Node is or even Java - yes that makes me sad.
    - nikanj 8y ago
      Why do you need 8x more memory for Windows? The NT kernel isn’t 8x worse than Linux, not even close.
sytse 8y ago
The announcement talks about "reliably provision application resources in different environments". Does that mean multiple clouds? I'm asking because in the Ansible example in https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/blob/master/ansiblebase/bundle.json https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/blob/master/ansiblebase/... I see AZURE_TENANT AZURE_CLIENT_ID AZURE_SECRET AZURE_SUBSCRIPTION_ID but nothing for other clouds. Would you have to add configuration for every cloud you have to support?
- mnoorali 8y ago
  The format is cloud agnostic. Here is an example of a bundle that Bitnami built that provisions wordpress and Amazon RDS https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpress-k8s-rds https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpres...
  - sytse 8y ago
    Thanks! In https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/blob/master/wordpress-k8s-rds/bundle.cnab https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/blob/master/wordpres... I see AWS but not Azure. It seems that in this context cloud agnostic means any cloud can be supported. I'm interested in application portability [0]. To do this with CNAB you need to add every cloud to the bundle. This is contrast to something like Crossplane [1] that intents to support multi-cloud with a single specification. 0. https://medium.com/gitlab-magazine/multi-cloud-maturity-model-2de185c01dd7 https://medium.com/gitlab-magazine/multi-cloud-maturity-mode... 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18600603#18601961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18600603#18601961
    - bdburns 8y ago
      You can build a kubernetes based bundle that is cloud agnostic.
  - amouat 8y ago
    I'm a little confused by this. I get the specification is cloud agnostic. But it looks like the developer needs to write the underlying code to provision and maintain the application on the various clouds. It feels like a too thin abstraction. And it seems pretty leaky currently; the examples all have hard and specific requirements e.g. Azure, k8s etc. What am I missing? Is the idea that we will create tooling to automatically create the provisioning and maintenance code?
ilaksh 8y ago
How is this not just an alternative to normal Docker tools? Does it run on Linux?
- bGl2YW5j 8y ago
  > How is this not just an alternative to normal Docker tools? From my understanding, you've got Docker for defining your app's services, you've got Kubernetes for orchestrating them, you've got Terraform et al. for defining/configuring your infrastructure, and now you've got CNAB/Duffle to bring all these tools and configs together under one umbrella. > Does it run on Linux? From the article[1] posted above: > By design, it is cloud agnostic. It works with everything from Azure to on-prem OpenStack, from Kubernetes to Swarm, and from Ansible to Terraform. It can execute on a workstation, a public cloud, an air-gapped network, or a constrained IoT environment. [1] https://open.microsoft.com/2018/12/04/announcing-cnab-cloud-agnostic-format-packaging-running-distributed-applications/ https://open.microsoft.com/2018/12/04/announcing-cnab-cloud-...
patrickaljord 8y ago
Is it possible to run duffle bundles on my kubernetes cluster right now? Couldn't find any docs. Thanks!
- mnoorali 8y ago
  Yea absolutely. Check out the hellohelm bundle for a simple example: https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/hellohelm https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/hellohelm and the Bitnami Wordpress + Amazon RDS bundle for one with multiple components: https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpress-k8s-rds https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpres...
  - patrickaljord 8y ago
    What would be the advantage over just using helm directly? (not a criticism, I'm not a big helm user for now, just kubectl but would like to know the difference for future project). Do you plan to integrate CNAB into kubernetes directly so we can bypass helm in the future?
    - gabrtv 8y ago
      If you're only using Kubernetes, straight Helm might be a better fit. But imagine you need to run your Helm chart on Kubernetes environment that doesn't have access to your container images. You could build a thick bundle from your Helm chart, put it on USB stick, sneaker-net it over to a disconnected Kubernetes cluster, hydrate a container registry and run the Helm chart with full fidelity in the new environment. This is just one thing CNAB enables..

by gabrtv 8y ago

politician 8y ago

Are there plans to work with CNCF on this spec to gain a broader consensus? EDIT: As a cloud systems architect, I view participation in CNCF as a positive signal.

gabrtv 8y ago
Yes. The intention has always been to put CNAB and related tooling into a foundation that offers vendor-neutral IP ownership. That could be CNCF, OCI, or something else.

donmcronald 8y ago

I wonder if I'm misunderstanding. Why would I want install, uninstall, etc. type actions running in a Docker container? Isn't that going to encourage people to spin up production environments that aren't reproducible? I'm not very familiar with Ansible, etc., so maybe tools like that have strategies for building deterministic environments, but I can see a lot of people putting `apt-get` or `yum` commands in an install script.

mnoorali 8y ago
The goal with CNAB is to be able to version your application with all of its components and then ship that as one logical unit making it reproducible. The package format is flexible enough to let you use the tooling that you're already using.
gabrtv 8y ago
CNAB makes reproducibility possible by providing unified lifecycle management, packaging, and distribution. Of course if bundle authors don't take care to work around problems with imperative logic, that's a risk. In practice, we see declarative models for building bundles offer more reproducibility. For example, see how you can build a CNAB using a Terraform base image: https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/terraform https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/terraform
- donmcronald 8y ago
  Yeah. I read through some of those existing configs and I see how it works now. My first instinct when I see `cnab/app/run install` is to think it's for installing the app, but now I see it's for provisioning / deploying to the environment. As soon as I think of install, uninstall as deploy, undeploy then it clicks for me.
  - bacongobbler 8y ago
    We may want to discuss changing the keywords from install/uninstall to be deploy/uninstall if that helps signal to the user the intent behind those actions. That's great feedback, thank you!

politician 8y ago

Do CNAB bundles support the ability to specify where parameter and credential details might be fetched from? Currently, we provide developers with lab environments that wire together a small subset of containers under Docker compose for local development because running the full system is impractical. However, most of our lab environments may have important external dependencies (i.e. Slack, SMTP gateways, etc) that require configuration and often secrets. One challenge of maintaining these lab environments is keeping these external configuration details up to date, so it would be helpful if the CNAB spec allowed configuration of this sort to be provided by an external provider similar to how Docker images themselves are expected to be provided by a container registry. Have you anticipated this use case? If so, does CNAB have this type of support?

gabrtv 8y ago
Yes. See credential sets in the specification. https://github.com/deislabs/cnab-spec/blob/master/802-credential-sets.md https://github.com/deislabs/cnab-spec/blob/master/802-creden...
- politician 8y ago
  Thanks Gabe, this looks promising.

throwaway981298 8y ago

When are you going to buy Docker Inc?

ravedave5 8y ago

I am one of those people who learn through examples. Do you have an example of using duffle for defining some sort of application? I work with this stuff and the websites are so abstract as to what it does and the spec is so low level...

mnoorali 8y ago
Absolutely! You can find some example bundles here: https://aka.ms/example-bundles https://aka.ms/example-bundles
- mnoorali 8y ago
  Here is also a video of us running through some examples to give you a high level walkthrough of CNAB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26e5-UK4YRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26e5-UK4YRA
  - outside1234 8y ago
    I'm even more confused after watching this video. Is the right way to think about this that it is a common specification that enables helm and compose to interoperate?
  - chanezon 8y ago
    You can find some preview binaries of docker-app with CNAB support as well as a few simple examples at https://github.com/docker/app#cnab-support-preview https://github.com/docker/app#cnab-support-preview

polskibus 8y ago

Does it work with Windows Server and Windows 10 the same way that docker does? Can it be utilized without docker?

mcny 8y ago

Thank you for being here and answering questions. Is there any way you can (internally) push to remove roadblocks for the insanity of Windows Home vs Pro for Docker/Hyper-V? I know this isn't possible in the short run but I think it prevents a lot of children from getting started with Docker. Based on what Scott Guttrie's team has been able to accomplish, I am cautiously optimistic that this is possible if there is enough push for it from within Microsoft. Thank you once again for your support!

beavis2 8y ago
If you want to play the "think of the children" card, then let's start by discouraging development on Windows.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- scarface74 8y ago
  I would discourage development for Windows but not necessarily on Windows. I develop on Windows and deploy to Linux all of the time. I also have started using the Linux subsystem for Windows. I’ve been developing for and on Windows for over 20 years. The “Windows Tax” didn’t become a concern of mine until I started using cloud providers. The cost of Microsoft’s licenses was someone else’s problem. But, when every resource you use is tagged and it’s very clear how much you’re spending on an implementation, the double hit of Windows becomes real. First you pay more for Windows VMs than the same size Linux VMs and then you need more resources. I can do a lot with a 256Mb-512Mb RAM Linux VM. I at least need 4GB of RAM for Windows and that’s stretching it. On the other hand, I still love .Net Core but it’s not getting the uptake that Node is or even Java - yes that makes me sad.
  - nikanj 8y ago
    Why do you need 8x more memory for Windows? The NT kernel isn’t 8x worse than Linux, not even close.

sytse 8y ago

The announcement talks about "reliably provision application resources in different environments". Does that mean multiple clouds? I'm asking because in the Ansible example in https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/blob/master/ansiblebase/bundle.json https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/blob/master/ansiblebase/... I see AZURE_TENANT AZURE_CLIENT_ID AZURE_SECRET AZURE_SUBSCRIPTION_ID but nothing for other clouds. Would you have to add configuration for every cloud you have to support?

mnoorali 8y ago
The format is cloud agnostic. Here is an example of a bundle that Bitnami built that provisions wordpress and Amazon RDS https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpress-k8s-rds https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpres...
- sytse 8y ago
  Thanks! In https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/blob/master/wordpress-k8s-rds/bundle.cnab https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/blob/master/wordpres... I see AWS but not Azure. It seems that in this context cloud agnostic means any cloud can be supported. I'm interested in application portability [0]. To do this with CNAB you need to add every cloud to the bundle. This is contrast to something like Crossplane [1] that intents to support multi-cloud with a single specification. 0. https://medium.com/gitlab-magazine/multi-cloud-maturity-model-2de185c01dd7 https://medium.com/gitlab-magazine/multi-cloud-maturity-mode... 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18600603#18601961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18600603#18601961
  - bdburns 8y ago
    You can build a kubernetes based bundle that is cloud agnostic.
- amouat 8y ago
  I'm a little confused by this. I get the specification is cloud agnostic. But it looks like the developer needs to write the underlying code to provision and maintain the application on the various clouds. It feels like a too thin abstraction. And it seems pretty leaky currently; the examples all have hard and specific requirements e.g. Azure, k8s etc. What am I missing? Is the idea that we will create tooling to automatically create the provisioning and maintenance code?

ilaksh 8y ago

How is this not just an alternative to normal Docker tools? Does it run on Linux?

bGl2YW5j 8y ago
> How is this not just an alternative to normal Docker tools? From my understanding, you've got Docker for defining your app's services, you've got Kubernetes for orchestrating them, you've got Terraform et al. for defining/configuring your infrastructure, and now you've got CNAB/Duffle to bring all these tools and configs together under one umbrella. > Does it run on Linux? From the article[1] posted above: > By design, it is cloud agnostic. It works with everything from Azure to on-prem OpenStack, from Kubernetes to Swarm, and from Ansible to Terraform. It can execute on a workstation, a public cloud, an air-gapped network, or a constrained IoT environment. [1] https://open.microsoft.com/2018/12/04/announcing-cnab-cloud-agnostic-format-packaging-running-distributed-applications/ https://open.microsoft.com/2018/12/04/announcing-cnab-cloud-...

patrickaljord 8y ago

Is it possible to run duffle bundles on my kubernetes cluster right now? Couldn't find any docs. Thanks!

mnoorali 8y ago
Yea absolutely. Check out the hellohelm bundle for a simple example: https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/hellohelm https://github.com/deislabs/bundles/tree/master/hellohelm and the Bitnami Wordpress + Amazon RDS bundle for one with multiple components: https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpress-k8s-rds https://github.com/bitnami/cnab-bundles/tree/master/wordpres...
- patrickaljord 8y ago
  What would be the advantage over just using helm directly? (not a criticism, I'm not a big helm user for now, just kubectl but would like to know the difference for future project). Do you plan to integrate CNAB into kubernetes directly so we can bypass helm in the future?
  - gabrtv 8y ago
    If you're only using Kubernetes, straight Helm might be a better fit. But imagine you need to run your Helm chart on Kubernetes environment that doesn't have access to your container images. You could build a thick bundle from your Helm chart, put it on USB stick, sneaker-net it over to a disconnected Kubernetes cluster, hydrate a container registry and run the Helm chart with full fidelity in the new environment. This is just one thing CNAB enables..