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These and other incidents with the UAE recently highlight the troubling willingness with which western states and businesses still jump into bed with the author

by jnty 8y ago

These and other incidents with the UAE recently highlight the troubling willingness with which western states and businesses still jump into bed with the authoritarian dictatorship du jour (usually on the proviso that it has a lot of oil) only to 'discover' years later that they're actually quite unpleasant.

number6 8y ago
UAE is a kingdom. This means it isn't a dictatorship. Sounds fishy? Not for officials...
- mtgx 8y ago
  And China isn't a dictatorship, despite now having a "permanent president" and permanent party in power that aims to fully serve this president (otherwise they wouldn't have made him president virtually unanimously -- except for two token "opposition guys", because you know, otherwise it may have looked weird from the outside). We're playing semantics here, aren't we? Of course it's a dictatorship.
  - corndoge 8y ago
    Parent meant that officials can simply refer to the fact that it's officially a kingdom when questioned about such deals
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    China at least has a ruling class, power isn’t completely concentrated in one person (Xi still has to negotiate between the few ruling red families and factions). I guess from that perspective, one could say there are no true dictatorships, only countries that register less or more in the dictatorship scale.
    - wavefunction 8y ago
      That's true of many of these arab regimes as well. Hence MBS' consolidation of power recently, for example. A monarchy is meaningless if you can blow off the power of the monarch. I am deeply sympathetic to the plight of their peoples.
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Sure. But all these authoritarian regimes are authoritarian in their own ways. Dictatorship specifically means power concentrated in one individual, and that is almost an impossible bar to pass these days; power is necessarily diffused into a few or more power brokers, but the result is the same to the people.
at-fates-hands 8y ago
> highlight the troubling willingness with which western states and businesses still jump into bed with the authoritarian dictatorship du jour (usually on the proviso that it has a lot of oil) This point is still a mystery to me. If it's always been about oil, then the US is currently the largest oil producer. Why are we still relying on these countries for anything?? Is it leveraging their wealth for other investments?
- Nursie 8y ago
  Massive concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, a few who are willing to spend it lavishly on western goods and services? Might be something to do with it. Their economies are not amongst the world's largest, but they have disproportionate power to spend for these reasons, AFAICT
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Many people in the US government are also interested in selling weapons, as well as making sure the kings of those countries are investing a good portion of their money back in the US.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - wavefunction 8y ago
    Many people in Silicon Valley are interested in making sure the kings of those countries are investing a good portion of their money back into their tech ventures.
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  The answer to this is 'geopolitics' which is basically unknowable to schmucks like us, but you can read the conjecture of people who follow it and see if it makes sense to you: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/11/if-saudi-oil-no-longer-matters-why-is-trump-still-supporting-them.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/11/if-saudi-oil-no-longer...
- 8y ago
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> the troubling willingness with which western states and businesses still jump into bed with the authoritarian dictatorship du jour The Dictator's Handbook [1] covers this in their chapter on foreign aid. TL; DR Democratically-elected leaders like dictatorships because it's easy to buy off dictators to achieve the electorate's foreign policy goals. Qatar lets us base with them for little compared to the diplomatic, economic and other concessions democracies require from the U.S. for such privileges. (Even near-moribund democracies like Pakistan's.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook
girvo 8y ago
I’m trying not to come across as flippant, but in more than one western democracy, we’ve voted in parties that continue to pass draconian authoritarian laws eroding away our civil liberties and rights as humans. I don’t think it’s particularly surprising they said governments aren’t all that upset about doing business with other more open authoritarian states...
geff82 8y ago
The UAE is a sheikhdom. While that does not come with all the goods from a democracy, it is much better than your average dictatorship. In theory it is similar, yet in practice a sheikh needs the support of the majority of his people. Also, a sheikh kidnapping his own daughter is really bad, yet it is a far cry from invading other nations, as America, England and Russia do all the time.

by jnty 8y ago

number6 8y ago

UAE is a kingdom. This means it isn't a dictatorship. Sounds fishy? Not for officials...

mtgx 8y ago
And China isn't a dictatorship, despite now having a "permanent president" and permanent party in power that aims to fully serve this president (otherwise they wouldn't have made him president virtually unanimously -- except for two token "opposition guys", because you know, otherwise it may have looked weird from the outside). We're playing semantics here, aren't we? Of course it's a dictatorship.
- corndoge 8y ago
  Parent meant that officials can simply refer to the fact that it's officially a kingdom when questioned about such deals
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  China at least has a ruling class, power isn’t completely concentrated in one person (Xi still has to negotiate between the few ruling red families and factions). I guess from that perspective, one could say there are no true dictatorships, only countries that register less or more in the dictatorship scale.
  - wavefunction 8y ago
    That's true of many of these arab regimes as well. Hence MBS' consolidation of power recently, for example. A monarchy is meaningless if you can blow off the power of the monarch. I am deeply sympathetic to the plight of their peoples.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Sure. But all these authoritarian regimes are authoritarian in their own ways. Dictatorship specifically means power concentrated in one individual, and that is almost an impossible bar to pass these days; power is necessarily diffused into a few or more power brokers, but the result is the same to the people.

at-fates-hands 8y ago

> highlight the troubling willingness with which western states and businesses still jump into bed with the authoritarian dictatorship du jour (usually on the proviso that it has a lot of oil) This point is still a mystery to me. If it's always been about oil, then the US is currently the largest oil producer. Why are we still relying on these countries for anything?? Is it leveraging their wealth for other investments?

Nursie 8y ago
Massive concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, a few who are willing to spend it lavishly on western goods and services? Might be something to do with it. Their economies are not amongst the world's largest, but they have disproportionate power to spend for these reasons, AFAICT
lotsofpulp 8y ago
Many people in the US government are also interested in selling weapons, as well as making sure the kings of those countries are investing a good portion of their money back in the US.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wavefunction 8y ago
  Many people in Silicon Valley are interested in making sure the kings of those countries are investing a good portion of their money back into their tech ventures.
awakeasleep 8y ago
The answer to this is 'geopolitics' which is basically unknowable to schmucks like us, but you can read the conjecture of people who follow it and see if it makes sense to you: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/11/if-saudi-oil-no-longer-matters-why-is-trump-still-supporting-them.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/11/if-saudi-oil-no-longer...
8y ago

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> the troubling willingness with which western states and businesses still jump into bed with the authoritarian dictatorship du jour The Dictator's Handbook [1] covers this in their chapter on foreign aid. TL; DR Democratically-elected leaders like dictatorships because it's easy to buy off dictators to achieve the electorate's foreign policy goals. Qatar lets us base with them for little compared to the diplomatic, economic and other concessions democracies require from the U.S. for such privileges. (Even near-moribund democracies like Pakistan's.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook

girvo 8y ago

I’m trying not to come across as flippant, but in more than one western democracy, we’ve voted in parties that continue to pass draconian authoritarian laws eroding away our civil liberties and rights as humans. I don’t think it’s particularly surprising they said governments aren’t all that upset about doing business with other more open authoritarian states...

geff82 8y ago

The UAE is a sheikhdom. While that does not come with all the goods from a democracy, it is much better than your average dictatorship. In theory it is similar, yet in practice a sheikh needs the support of the majority of his people. Also, a sheikh kidnapping his own daughter is really bad, yet it is a far cry from invading other nations, as America, England and Russia do all the time.