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Can you imagine being a software engineer and being okay with getting rich by developing technology to out dissidents and have them murdered by some of the most
by mikeyouse 8y ago
Can you imagine being a software engineer and being okay with getting rich by developing technology to out dissidents and have them murdered by some of the most oppressive governments on earth? Like, that's what you choose to spend your time on.
- cronix 8y agoShould car engineers feel bad because a few people have used the cars they designed improperly and intentionally killed people with them?
- sj3k 8y agoThe context is not the same for the car engineers compared to engineer knowingly working on something with the explicit purpose to harm people
- cronix 8y agoRight, and the context of the software is to catch terrorists and cybercriminals, and it was misused, as all tech can be. "The explicit purpose to harm people" is not an accurate description of the softwares primary purpose.
- mindslight 8y agoThe terms "terrorists" and "cybercriminals" are basically euphemisms for political enemies.
- mikeyouse 8y agoExactly -- and there's no veneer of legitimacy. NSO has been caught red-handed multiple times selling to atrocious governments. Every single person connected to that company is okay helping despots murder political rivals and dissidents. Just awful.
- abalone 8y agoThe correct analogy would be a software engineer who crafts hacks for autonomous cars that tracks drivers to their locations, then sells them to oppressive regimes that go murder them. Yes, those engineers are scum of the earth.
- netcan 8y agonot necessarily an analogy.
- flyinglizard 8y agoVery unlikely that it’s presented this way. People working in NSO feel they are doing a public service by helping catch bad guys. Given the Israeli sensitivity around terrorism, it’s an easy sell, and I’m sure NSO has success stories around such use.
- abalone 8y agoGiven that Israel regularly employs deadly force against civilians, this does not absolve NSO's software engineers from moral culpability. That is like saying the backroom boys at Dow who developed napalm thought it was just being used against "bad guys".
- flyinglizard 8y agoMoral culpability depends on perspective. It’s not absolute. In some societies it’s immoral to consume alcohol, in others it’s immoral to get a divorce or use electricity on Saturdays. From the perspective of NSO developers, they are helping prevent the next attack against civilians somewhere. I can’t fault them for that.
- objektif 8y agoKilling people is immoral in any society. If you have an average IQ you understand eventually what your product will be used for.
- javagram 8y ago> Killing people is immoral in any society Most societies make an exception for killing enemies of the state. Soldiers are seen as heroes fighting for their country not as immoral killers.
- airstrike 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_ad_bellum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_ad_bellum
- 8y ago
- gammateam 8y agothats pretty much why I left the DC area, thats what they all do in the defense sector. and the technologies generally weren't trendy, PRIORITIES
- dboreham 8y agoThis isn't a new situation either: I can remember colleagues in the '80s refusing to work on products that were used to simulate nuclear weapons (by agencies building them).
- forapurpose 8y ago> Can you imagine being a software engineer and being okay with getting rich by developing technology to out dissidents and have them murdered by some of the most oppressive governments on earth? It's a great question. Sadly, people have been making money on such things since the first tools were invented. Think about all the weapons manufacturers, for example. Think of the oppressors, killer, and torturers that rule and that serve the regimes - are they a different species than software engineers? But the question is, why? What leads people to do it? I don't buy simplistic answers such as, 'they don't care'.
- oh-kumudo 8y agoWell. Technology is technology, how would the developer predict how their code is being used? Also the developer owns NO rights of their written code, the right to license it to the Saudis here is from Israel government.
- mikeyouse 8y agoIt's a private company who explicitly exist to develop and deploy exploits against private citizens priced at rates that are only affordable to Nation States... I'm pretty sure that the ex-IDF developers know exactly what they're doing.
- InGodsName 8y agoOne possible way is to judge the party based on their previous action who you are selling code.
- fit2rule 8y agoBeing a software engineer doesn't preclude one from also being a fascist, or a totalitarian, or a nationalist, or a racist. There are no doubt people out there, software engineers just like you and me, who are nevertheless proud of what they've done to the world in these kinds of actions. Certain types of software engineering attract these kinds of mindsets, in fact. Totalitarian-authoritarianism is a big problem in the technology world; its subtle effects all too easy to ignore, subjectively, when the mindset starts to take hold ..
- isoskeles 8y agoCan you imagine being a software engineer and being okay with getting rich by developing technology that wastes some aggregated hundreds of thousands if not millions of man-hours per day on completely pointless trash like Candy Crush or refreshing the Facebook feed repeatedly? Sure there's no physical harm, but the reach seems to be further than a dissident here or there.
- zaidf 8y agoI don't hear this argument against other forms of entertainment. No one says "Lebron James makes millions by wasting billions of hours of ppl's time watching him play on TV."
- expathacker 8y agoYou just described what it's like to work for all global arms contractors, not to mention Palantir. Cash Rules Everything Around Me -- Wu-Tang.