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Contrast this with the fact that paris has had the worst riots in half a century due to a new carbon tax. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/france-anti-tax-pro

Contrast this with the fact that paris has had the worst riots in half a century due to a new carbon tax. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/france-anti-tax-protests-leave-gas-stations-running-dry-n942871 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/france-anti-tax-protests-...

vkou 8y ago
The protest is due to a high cost of living, of which gas taxes are just a small portion. They are, however, a portion that is very convenient to shed crocodile tears over. Nobody notices when your employer's profit per employee increased by $5,000 year-over-year, without any increase in your take-home, or blames the government when their landlord raised rent again, but increase the cost of gas by 10 cents/litre, and everyone loses their minds.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Yet they aren't paying noticeably more for fuel than others in Europe. The proportion of pump price paid as tax has fallen under Macron. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/03/are-the-french-hit-especially-hard-by-fuel-taxes-protests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/03/are-the-french...
- petermcneeley 8y ago
  I am going by the article linked: "Macron says the increased fuel taxes are part of his effort to combat climate change, wanting to persuade French drivers to exchange diesel-fueled cars for less polluting models."
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
war1025 8y ago
Given the lifestyle choices I've seen people make who are also very publicly worried about climate change, it seems as much as anything to be virtue / social status signaling. You worry about climate change if all your other basic needs are met and you want to signal that to your friends and neighbors.
- vkou 8y ago
  Is these virtue signalers changing their lifestyle choices going to solve the problem of climate change? Boycotts only work, when they are done collectively. Choosing to opt out of carbon generation, is like choosing to opt out of politics. It's going to happen, regardless of whether or not you participate... Unless you act in solidarity.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    They should lead by example if they expect others to make drastic changes in their lifestyle. When they continue to live lifestyles that emit far more than the average amount of CO2, people question whether they really believe what they claim.
    - vkou 8y ago
      Taxing carbon-emitting sources of electricity, by 100%, to make renewables more competitive will not produce a drastic change in your lifestyle. For me, it will mean that my power bill will be $60/month, instead of $30/month. Me opting out of using electricity will, unfortunately, not have the same effect to my life as an increase in my power bill. Large reductions in our carbon emissions are possible without large changes to our lifestyles. Utility-level power generation is a huge low-hanging fruit. My consumption choices aren't going to do shit to drive it. The attitude of "Live what you preach, or shut up" is, unfortunately, not going to convince my utility to stop burning coal, or my city to expand its transit coverage. Coal, and oil becoming uneconomical, compared to the alternatives, preferably through carbon taxes, will, however.
      - leereeves 8y ago
        Renewables are already competitive, thanks to natural progress in technology. Investment driven by artificial incentives would only have led to excessive, wasteful investment in technologies that weren't ready yet.
      - war1025 8y ago
agumonkey 8y ago
It was painful at first. But do remember that this riot is complex, if not totally fuzzy, the carbon tax was mostly the straw that broke the camel’s back, this is more about a long drift in sociopolitical tissue (more taxes, worse services) than carbon tax itself. Still, painful to see when surrounded by climate change emergency warnings.
- sebazzz 8y ago
  I found the fact that Poland said that coal is not a major contributor to climate change even more painful - as being the hosting country.
breatheoften 8y ago
I believe there were about 3000 - 5000 participants in the “massive” Paris riots. Contrast that to the 500,000 plus numbers that showed up for the women’s march in Washington DC. My impression is that the rioters in Paris are primarily right wing extremists and terrorist groups using violence for visibility and messaging amplification.
- leereeves 8y ago
  > Around 280,000 protested in the streets across the country that day [Nov. 17], with 106,000 people attending rallies on Saturday [Nov. 24], according to French Interior Minister Christophe Castaner. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/who-are-france-s-yellow-jacket-protesters-what-do-they-n940016 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/who-are-france-s-yellow-j...
  - breatheoften 8y ago
    That’s country wide not Paris — and notice the spread between protesters in the streets and those attending rallies. It’s way overcounting people just trying to transit past the protestors who are causing all sorts of havoc by blocking traffic.
    - leereeves 8y ago
      The numbers aren't spread between "those in the streets and those attending rallies"; they're for two different days, Nov 17 and 24. And why would the Interior Minister be overcounting? If anything, his incentive is to minimize the numbers.
- zilian 8y ago
  Terrorism ? What ?
  - breatheoften 8y ago
    It’s a supposedly leaderless s mob self-organized on the internet, promoting violent actions of their loosely affiliated political supporters. How is that different from terrorism?

vkou 8y ago

The protest is due to a high cost of living, of which gas taxes are just a small portion. They are, however, a portion that is very convenient to shed crocodile tears over. Nobody notices when your employer's profit per employee increased by $5,000 year-over-year, without any increase in your take-home, or blames the government when their landlord raised rent again, but increase the cost of gas by 10 cents/litre, and everyone loses their minds.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Yet they aren't paying noticeably more for fuel than others in Europe. The proportion of pump price paid as tax has fallen under Macron. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/03/are-the-french-hit-especially-hard-by-fuel-taxes-protests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/03/are-the-french...

petermcneeley 8y ago
I am going by the article linked: "Macron says the increased fuel taxes are part of his effort to combat climate change, wanting to persuade French drivers to exchange diesel-fueled cars for less polluting models."

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

war1025 8y ago

Given the lifestyle choices I've seen people make who are also very publicly worried about climate change, it seems as much as anything to be virtue / social status signaling. You worry about climate change if all your other basic needs are met and you want to signal that to your friends and neighbors.

vkou 8y ago
Is these virtue signalers changing their lifestyle choices going to solve the problem of climate change? Boycotts only work, when they are done collectively. Choosing to opt out of carbon generation, is like choosing to opt out of politics. It's going to happen, regardless of whether or not you participate... Unless you act in solidarity.
- leereeves 8y ago
  They should lead by example if they expect others to make drastic changes in their lifestyle. When they continue to live lifestyles that emit far more than the average amount of CO2, people question whether they really believe what they claim.
  - vkou 8y ago
    Taxing carbon-emitting sources of electricity, by 100%, to make renewables more competitive will not produce a drastic change in your lifestyle. For me, it will mean that my power bill will be $60/month, instead of $30/month. Me opting out of using electricity will, unfortunately, not have the same effect to my life as an increase in my power bill. Large reductions in our carbon emissions are possible without large changes to our lifestyles. Utility-level power generation is a huge low-hanging fruit. My consumption choices aren't going to do shit to drive it. The attitude of "Live what you preach, or shut up" is, unfortunately, not going to convince my utility to stop burning coal, or my city to expand its transit coverage. Coal, and oil becoming uneconomical, compared to the alternatives, preferably through carbon taxes, will, however.
    - leereeves 8y ago
      Renewables are already competitive, thanks to natural progress in technology. Investment driven by artificial incentives would only have led to excessive, wasteful investment in technologies that weren't ready yet.
    - war1025 8y ago

agumonkey 8y ago

It was painful at first. But do remember that this riot is complex, if not totally fuzzy, the carbon tax was mostly the straw that broke the camel’s back, this is more about a long drift in sociopolitical tissue (more taxes, worse services) than carbon tax itself. Still, painful to see when surrounded by climate change emergency warnings.

sebazzz 8y ago
I found the fact that Poland said that coal is not a major contributor to climate change even more painful - as being the hosting country.

breatheoften 8y ago

I believe there were about 3000 - 5000 participants in the “massive” Paris riots. Contrast that to the 500,000 plus numbers that showed up for the women’s march in Washington DC. My impression is that the rioters in Paris are primarily right wing extremists and terrorist groups using violence for visibility and messaging amplification.

leereeves 8y ago
> Around 280,000 protested in the streets across the country that day [Nov. 17], with 106,000 people attending rallies on Saturday [Nov. 24], according to French Interior Minister Christophe Castaner. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/who-are-france-s-yellow-jacket-protesters-what-do-they-n940016 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/who-are-france-s-yellow-j...
- breatheoften 8y ago
  That’s country wide not Paris — and notice the spread between protesters in the streets and those attending rallies. It’s way overcounting people just trying to transit past the protestors who are causing all sorts of havoc by blocking traffic.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    The numbers aren't spread between "those in the streets and those attending rallies"; they're for two different days, Nov 17 and 24. And why would the Interior Minister be overcounting? If anything, his incentive is to minimize the numbers.
zilian 8y ago
Terrorism ? What ?
- breatheoften 8y ago
  It’s a supposedly leaderless s mob self-organized on the internet, promoting violent actions of their loosely affiliated political supporters. How is that different from terrorism?