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Dark web dealers voluntarily ban deadly fentanyl
- mschuster91 8y agoMakes sense. Can't make money when customers are ending up dead. Selling pot is one thing, can't die from an overdose, but if I were a drug dealer I'd leave my paws off of heroin, fenta and friends.
- 14 8y agoUnfortunately it just creates another opportunity for someone who figures they can make a buck as long as there is someone willing to buy fentanyl.
- tptacek 8y agoAccording the article, it has little to do with intrinsic concern over the well-being of customers, and more to do with the sellers getting caught up in legal reprisals.
- cpncrunch 8y ago"There are also drug users on the dark web who say on forums that they don’t think it’s right that people are selling fentanyl because it is dangerous and kills a lot of people.”
- ransom1538 8y agoYes. When someone dies of fyntanyl (especially if they have relatives in law enforcement) there is a good chance they open the victims laptop. The tor session might still be sitting there. There could be notes in text files on the desktop. This is where it gets bad for a dealer. Because now law enforcement can pretend to be victim and trick dealers into unveiling their id. [drop site setups etc]
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- michaelcampbell 8y agoIt always confuses me when I hear of kids dying to OD'ing on this stuff; why cut your product with so much of something that would kill your customers?
- imsofuture 8y agoIt's accidental. The problem with fentanyl is that it's so ridiculously strong. So you're selling heroin and figure "hey, I'll cut it and make more money". You add something inert and then add a tiny bit of a fentanyl and oops you added too much, now it's poisonous for users to take a "normal" dose.
- cronix 8y agoJust wait until Dsuvia hits the black market. Reportedly 10x stronger than Fentanyl. https://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm624968.htm https://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/u...
- refurb 8y agoSufentanil is already available on the black market. It’s been seized in Canada a few times. It is ridiculously potent. We’re talking a normal dose of 10’s of micrograms. However. I would argue diversion of Dsuvia will likely reduce overdoses as the quality control means you know exactly how much you’re taking.
- castratikron 8y agoIt's much stronger than meth. Current meth users try fentanyl without knowing what they're getting themselves into and they can easily take too much and OD. It has been a huge problem in the region I grew up in (rural midwest US).
- jnbiche 8y agoAs a general rule, it's relatively unusual for methamphetamine users to get into fentanyl/heroin and vice versa. Two different scenes. Now, there are always a few "garbagehead" addicts that'll use whatever you got, but that's not common in my experience, since opiate addicts chase calm, sleepy euphoria and meth/cocaine addicts chase stimulating, energetic euphoria. Different scenes, different personality types. Probably different genetics as well.
- jwally 8y agoWhy would an addict use heroin over fentanyl if they both produce the same euphoric effects but fentanyl is cheaper / stronger? I almost always hear about fentanyl in the context of "...the heroin was cut with with fentanyl". I read that statement like "...the heroin was cut with ultra-pure-super-heroin". Why wouldn't the addict cut out the "middle-man" and just use fentanyl? Legitimately trying to understand.
- tptacek 8y agoPossibly: it's extremely strong, which means physical dependency kicks in extremely fast and hard. Just because you're addicted to opioids doesn't mean you don't care about modulating your intake.
- refurb 8y agoJust because it’s more potent on a weigh basis doesn’t mean it’s easier to get addicted. That’s a property of the drug that is distinct from the dose.
- guitarbill 8y agoBecause it's hard to dose correctly, and has a very slim error margin?
- pas 8y ago
- agumonkey 8y agoWhen pirates react faster than government you should think.
- LaikaF 8y agoI remember when this happened on Hansa because the dutch feds took it over.
- YouKnowBetter 8y agoDuring their time as black market administrators, the Dutch police only banned one product on Hansa: the highly dangerous opioid Fentanyl. https://www.wired.com/story/hansa-dutch-police-sting-operation/ https://www.wired.com/story/hansa-dutch-police-sting-operati...
- solotronics 8y agoFentanyl only exists on the dark web because of the Chinese labs pumping it out. Wake up! The Chinese government policy is to look the other way if you aren't selling the drugs inside China. They see this as just revenge for the British selling opium in China. This is directly responsible for thousands of deaths in the US. Execute the scum bringing this into our countries! What can we do about this? Direct trade punishments for allowing this to happen. Hit them the only place they care, in the bank account and this would stop Quickly!
- 8note 8y agoThe next step would be for china to invade and force a change in US laws to allow fentanyl
- api 8y ago... which would be exactly what we did right?
- solotronics 8y agoWhat does anything we do today have to do with the actions of people two hundred years ago? Grow up!
- _iyig 8y agoWho is “we?” People who look like me, a white person, who did mean things two centuries before I was born? Speak for yourself.
- forkLding 8y agoA lot of fearmongering here, drug manufacturing & trafficking in small amounts is punishable by death in China, if you are making narcotics in China, you don't fear the Chinese govt or the Chinese army and you basically have nothing to lose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade_in_China It's like saying you're gonna stop all the drug dealers in US to stop selling drugs, its very hard for China to stop all narcotics. Heres an official report by the US-China Economic & Security Review Commission on Chinese Fentanyl Production: https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Research/USCC%20Staff%20Report_Fentanyl-China%E2%80%99s%20Deadly%20Export%20to%20the%20United%20States020117.pdf https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Research/USCC%20Sta... and I quote: "China is a global source of illicit fentanyl and other NPS because the country’s vast chemical and pharmaceutical industries are weakly regulated and poorly monitored...Chinese law enforcement and drug investigators are unable to effectively regulate the high volume of drugs and chemicals the country produces.In many cases, the chemicals used to produce fentanyl and fentanyl-like products are illegally diverted from legitimate pharmaceutical uses, with criminals taking advantage of inadequate enforcement protocols to produce unregulated chemicals and NPS. Until 2014, a regulatory loophole allowed Chinese chemical companies to operate in a gray area of oversight, freeing them from inspection requirements and other certification systems. That loophole was closed in 2014 when China’s State Administration of Work Safety implemented new regulations on chemical production to improve management of nonpharmaceutical businesses, including enforcing stricter licensing requirements. Even under the new regulations, Chinese pharmaceutical and chemical companies continue to divert chemicals from legitimate pharmaceutical uses and adulterate legitimate pharmaceuticals during production.This makes drug enforcement within China difficult, as many manufacturers of fentanyl and other NPS are legitimate companies legally producing chemicals. Although some of these chemical manufacturers knowingly ship their products to the United States for illicit purposes, Chinese chemical and pharmaceutical exporters continue to operate with little oversight" Do not get me wrong, I've seen the impact of Fentanyl and I want China to step up on crushing its production.
- stevenjohns 8y agoIt's closer to outright jingoistic hatred than fearmongering. People have managed to convince themselves that it's a Chinese government plot with conspiracy theories being upvoted left and right. It's actually a pretty good example of situations where the fringe right and fringe left come together and hold hands.
- janhle 8y agoI'm seeing a lot of nonsense in this thread and I'd just like to point out a few things that seem to be commonly misunderstood and misrepresented by the media: - Fentanyl is only more dangerous than heroin because it is not properly prepared. This means the dilution is not homogeneous, and users unexpectedly come across a stronger dose or batch. - If properly prepared, fentanyl is safer than heroin. Its therapeutic index is 400 vs 70 for heroin (this measures the ratio between active dose and toxic dose). Proper preparation means diluting it so that users can take a dose similar to heroin for the same effects. With correctly diluted fentanyl, users have a wider margin of error before an overdose. Dilution is never done as a last step by the user, it's done in labs that prepare large amounts of the drug. - For addicts, the ritual is the same for both drugs. The feeling is mostly the same, but lasts a little shorter for fentanyl. The addiction potential being higher for one or the other is disputable. - Once again, it having a lower active dose ("stronger") does not make it inherently more dangerous. It just makes dilution more technical, and this is where the problem comes from. Edit: Of course, I am in no way defending recreational use of the drug. Like all opioids, it's very addictive and can easily lead to a self-destructive habit. And with recreational users, overdoses will probably happen even with a perfectly diluted batch.
- refurb 8y agoIndeed. Fentanyl is used thousands of times per day in the medical setting because it is a safe drug. I do agree that the potency makes preparation difficult. Few dealers have the equipment to either accurately weigh it out or dilute it such that the product is homogenous. When you move up to even more potent opioids like carfentanyl or sufentanyl, the risk is even higher. Who has the ability to accurately weigh out 0.030 mg? That said, dying of a “hot dose” of heroin is not exactly uncommon either. Interestingly, opioids are toxic at high doses as they depress the breathing response to blood CO2 levels. If someone overdosed and you breath for them (CPR or ventilator), you can just wait for the effects to wear off and they’ll be none the worse for wear. I’ve read case reports where a users friends maintain CPR for an hour plus until they started breathing on their own.
- VectorLock 8y ago
- yholio 8y ago> Vince O’Brien, one of the NCA’s leads on drugs, told the Observer that dark web marketplace operators appeared to have made a commercial decision, because selling a drug that could lead to fatalities was more likely to prompt attention from police. Way to save face Vince, so the good old police still works to the benefit of society, but in a convoluted fashion where the underworld avoids making the public too angry and force the police to do it's job. How about the idea that, like high explosives, nukes and child porn, the people involved recolonize them as inherently immoral and refuse to partake? Unlike, say, the ban on recreational drugs itself - which is the whole reason poisons like fentanyl became available.
- meowface 8y agoBoth you and the journalist are just speculating. Who knows their real reasons? Many darknet markets do allow listings for firearms and explosives, and a few even allow child porn. Ross Ulbricht had no issue with murdering people, and attempted to do so.
- woah 8y agoThe idea that Ross Ulbricht attempted to kill anyone is entirely based on the word of an agent who was charged with embezzling money, and never entered into his trial. The prosecution decided to hide the fact that the agent was on the take during the investigation until Ulbricht’s trial was over. It helped them to have a cloud of shaky and unprovable allegations of murder floating around. It would have been too risky to their case to put the accusations of murder under the scrutiny of a trial.
- qwerty456127 8y agoSee! Whatever is actually deadly (even if it's not by its nature but because of too people doing it wrong like in this particular case) people will stop it themselves. People buy and sell psychedelics because these are, unlike strong opioids, not deadly and there is little if any reason to ban them yet governments all over the world do and insist it is more important than education, violent crime prevention and everything (in many countries possession of some doses of LSD is enough to put you in prison for much longer than a murder).
- zippzom 8y ago1000s of people dying every year from drug overdoses in the US would disagree with you. In fact heroin and meth, both deadly and dangerous drugs, are used far more often than psychedelics I would bet.
- qwerty456127 8y agoI have tried taking meth for about a couple of weeks a couple of times in my life and had no problems with it, I didn't even have to "quit" as the "addiction" is purely psychological (so it totally depends on a person if they are going to be affected by it or not, I wasn't, but perhaps it could be harder for me if I had no love in my life and didn't do meth solely for working efficiency so I could write code much faster and better than I usually can being handicapped by ADHD so severe that ordinary aphetamine won't help much (and you can't get either legally at my location)) if you do it right (take a really lot of piracetam, antioxidants, vitamins, eat fruits and drink a huge lot of water with electrolytes all the way, try to relax regularly, don't drink any alcohol, don't (!) take dopa/tyrosine supplements while on meth etc.) and it itself can hardly kill you. Heroin can indeed kill (unless you really know how exactly pure it is and control the dosage very seriously) but it's usually a risk the people choose to take (and you can even eliminate both the risk and the addictivity if you get substance of precisely known purity and take it in sufficiently small doses) while with poorly diluted fentanyl the risk is like a "russian roulette". Also note that what I've meant was essentially about treating psychedelics the same way as opiates, not much about meth (which can be deadly in an indirect way (it doesn't kill by itself but given some time can easily screw a weak mind to the point of madness) for many people) nor about heroin (which can kill you quite literally). Nevertheless in both cases there always is a choice people are given many chances to make and in case of black market fentanyl there almost isn't.
- newname2018 8y agoDid anyone read the article where the cops were contacting the customers to make alleged welfare checks and to tell them it was dangerous. If you are using the dark web you are pwned . Use the clear web instead or voluntarily visit your local methadone clinic. It will save you from a lot of legal issues
- solidsnack9000 8y agoSuppliers, fearing police crackdown, decide opioid is too high-risk to trade No evidence is offered to support this byline -- no interviews with suppliers, no surveys, no web forum transcripts.
- cududa 8y agoAround the time of your comment China announced a massive crackdown on fentynal production as a gesture of good will towards the US. I suspect that has something to do with this
- dglass 8y agoThe US-China trade deal has 100% to do with this. It's too big of a coincidence that just as China agrees to designate fentanyl as a controlled substance, the dealers voluntarily (as a whole) decide it's too risky to trade.
- siruncledrew 8y agoIt's a win-win for China beyond the trade war. China gets: 1. Positive sentiment from US. 2. Crackdown on drug producers in China (which furthers the objective of having strict control on drugs with steep penalties, and making examples out of drugs dealers for CCTV). 3. To hand a blow to Chinese Triads exporting drugs and laundering money outside of China (e.g. bringing cash out of China): https://globalnews.ca/news/4149818/vancouver-cautionary-tale-money-laundering-drugs/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4149818/vancouver-cautionary-tale... 4. Tighter government oversight/control on the prescription pharmaceuticals market.
- maa5444 8y agodamn
- cududa 8y agoThe timing of this is interesting, particularly that minutes ago China announced, as a gesture of good will towards the US, illegal fentanyl production/ distribution would carry the highest punishment (death)
- yesforwhat 8y ago> as a gesture of good will towards the US "Let me remove this gun from your temple. Thank me, now."
- csense 8y agoIf dealers pull drugs that cause deaths, could we make progress in the War on Drugs by having government agents sneak poison into the illegal drug supply? The idea here is that dealers would stop selling drug after drug as the death toll mounts. If they chose to keep selling, the deaths would presumably make the drugs easier to trace. I'm not sure if it would be legal or ethical for the government to do this. But they did it to alcohol during Prohibition.
- tfha 8y ago"could we make progress in the way on drugs by killing drug users?" No, that would not be progress
- slavik81 8y agoThe point of making opiods illegal in the first place was to protect drug users from themselves. From that perspective, it seems counter-productive to murder them.
- _Nat_ 8y agoIn general, you can write off pretty much any idea that involves poisoning children as unethical. That death tolls from the [opioid crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic) have been rising is a problem that people've been trying to mitigate, not further. It is a bit strange to consider that we still do poison alcohol to prevent, say, people from drinking mouthwash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol): > Denatured alcohol, also called methylated spirit (in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and the United Kingdom) or denatured rectified spirit, is ethanol that has additives to make it poisonous, bad-tasting, foul-smelling, or nauseating to discourage recreational consumption. Unfortunately, despite a widespread cultural understanding that it's dangerous to consume denatured alcohols like mouthwash, some folks still do (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogate_alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogate_alcohol): > Surrogate alcohol is a term for any substance containing ethanol that is intentionally consumed by humans but is not meant for human consumption. [...] Most people turn to these as a last resort either out of desperation, being underaged or being unable to afford consumable alcoholic beverages (with homeless alcoholics) or due to lack of access to drinking ethanol (for example with prison inmates and individuals in psychiatric wards).
- EGreg 8y agoIf people move to end-to-end encrypted communication, how would third parties know what to ban? Wouldn’t any kind of information be possible - including marketplaces?
- bfuller 8y agoI assume because markets offer escrow and direct sales do not