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If Reddit and other similar sites want to make a point, a banner won't be enough. They need to do the unthinkable: Block all access from the EU. If the legisla
by mabbo 8y ago
If Reddit and other similar sites want to make a point, a banner won't be enough. They need to do the unthinkable: Block all access from the EU.
If the legislation as written is going to make it impossible to do business in the region, then that's what these companies are facing eventually anyways. This sucks for them, sucks for users, sucks for everyone. So let's have a taste of what that looks like. A preview.
Reddit, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Wikipedia, Instagram, TwitchTV, etc. All the websites where the content is made by users. As a group, shut down for 24 hours within the EU, instead displaying a simple page explaining the problem and what can do done about it.
Until they're willing to do that, the users don't know or care what they're talking about. Legislators are relying on a population who is too distracted to care what they're doing. Well, fine, let's take away the distractions.
- 0db532a0 8y agoI really don’t think we’d be missing much if these websites were shut down. In fact, it might be a good thing.
- Barrin92 8y agoIt might even spur new European based social media companies that aren't full of American politics 90% of the time. To make Reddit useable I essentially have to filter out most of the website. Also for a long time I've been frustrated with the content policing that American companies enforce on European users. As a German user I have always been confused by the fact that a topless woman is going to get her account closed while some guy with a burning cross in his backyard and a swastika on his forehead can post merrily. Maybe the result of this is social media in Europe more closely aligned with people's values over here. I've never been a fan of Zuckerberg's 'connect the world' mentality.
- jstanley 8y ago> They need to do the unthinkable: Block all access from the EU. This is not a solution. This is just allowing beauracrats the power to make us voluntarily erect borders in cyberspace where none are required. Blocking entire geographic regions is the worst possible response.
- Zak 8y agoA one day blackout was very helpful in stopping the US SOPA proposal. I can imagine the same thing being useful in raising public awareness in Europe.
- emidln 8y agoReddit replacing all of Reddit for EU users with a page explaining how to contact their government officials is the only thing that will work. Users won't be bothered for anything less.
- kodablah 8y ago> Blocking entire geographic regions is the worst possible response. I agree when it's only on principles (not everyone there is guilty). However, blocking entire geographic regions is entirely reasonable for small businesses unwilling to comply with those rules. I'm glad that governments haven't completely disallowed companies the freedom to choose their regions. I have no doubt this will be attempted at some point via treaty.
- gambiting 8y agoI live in the EU and I fully support this. Youtube should block all access from EU, as well as Reddit and others. The legislation is insane.
- avian 8y agoAn honest question: Did you read the relevant text of the directive or is your opinion based only on the second-hand interpretations?
- xhruso00 8y agoI second this. Most people did not even dare to read it.
- TomasSedovic 8y agoTo be fair, it is a really difficult thing to read and comprehend. I've read the whole proposal around May this year, and it is tough. When I did get to the articles 11 and 13, a lot of the stuff people were really warning against wasn't even there. It was in a reference to another law, already passed years ago and only referenced by its number. So you had to look that up and any references it had, too. And at the end of it, you're still left with a deep unease that you've probably missed a lot of data and meaning because these things don't seem to be written in a way non-layers can understand.
- Reason077 8y agoThis is actually a significant problem with the way many EU directives are written. Wording is often loose, sometimes vague, and subject to considerable interpretation. Perhaps deliberately so.
- sarcasmic 8y agoI doubt most of those people who've bought into the notion that small businesses like Reddit and nonprofit services like Wikipedia would be affected have read the relevant text, considering the text specifically says nonprofits and small businesses are exempt [1] from the rules of Article 13 (the takedown one). I'm also puzzled by the people saying it's difficult to comprehend. The hardest part is mentally joining the diffs in amendments to the static copy before a document is updated. EU legislation is not nearly as weasely as US, and likes to use precise terms it defines earlier in the document. Such is the case with the terms 'information society service' and 'online content sharing service provider' [2], whose exact definitions are relevant. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18488844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18488844 [2] search for 'Amendment 150' in http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&language=EN&reference=P8-TA-2018-0337 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&langua...
- jMyles 8y ago> They need to do the unthinkable: Block all access from the EU. This seems like a deeply cowardly move. The courageous and virtuous move is to simply ignore the law and continue as usual - to challenge the state to do what, if we all unite in support of each other and our basic freedoms, it will be unable to do.
- mcguire 8y agoAre you volunteering to pay for the lawyers and any fines?
- lettergram 8y agoOne thing I don't understand is how you prove your from the EU. I route most of my internet traffic through various VPNs. I'm in the U.S., but am increasingly more often hit with EU specific guidence. Prove I'm from the EU (or US) - you can't.
- icebraining 8y agoWhy would they need to prove that?
- gjs278 8y agothe EU says I owe them 10 trillion dollars. I have no assets in the EU. what next?
- jhasse 8y agoYou won't be able to enter the EU.
- kodablah 8y agoI completely agree if they can reasonably risk it. However for those that feel similarly about the expanse, overreach, and unjustness of the GDPR, are they similarly courageous in ignoring the law? If their motives are the exact same as here (i.e. about internet freedom from egregious oversight, not bottom line)? I'd say so in the interest of consistency, many would say not just because they like one imposition on the internet and not the other.
- bdz 8y agoThe actually did that but it disappeared after a few hours https://np.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/9yrbgb/so_this_happened_on_my_reddit_today_and_it/ https://np.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/9yrbgb/so_this_happe...
- mabbo 8y agoPoorly worded. And shouldn't have backed down. If it were me, I'd say something like: > We're sorry. Due to pending legislation in the European Union Parliament, we will soon be unable to maintain this website for European users. Today, we are testing our block and giving a users a preview of what it's going to look like. We're sorry that this is interrupting your usage- we don't want that to happen either. > There is still time to prevent this from becoming permanent. Click here to learn more about why this is happening, and click here to contact your MEP to ask them to please help prevent this from happening. > Again, we are so sorry that we've had to block you today. We hope you'll help us fight to keep the internet open. But then, I'm Canadian so most of my sentences start with "Sorry".
- Bayart 8y agoThe only effect it would have would be polarizing European users against those companies.
- mabbo 8y agoWould it? Some, maybe. But it really depends how it's implemented. Take the Canadian approach of starting with "We're Sorry", and explain that this is a test of how things will soon be given pending legislation.
- Buttons840 8y agoEven better might be to force all the EU into a single thread about the legislation. Then Reddit users can whip other Reddit users into a frenzy, as Reddit does best. Or it might devolve into political debate with an unhealthy mix of bot generated content and trolls.
- paulie_a 8y agoOr for some websites, simply ignore the EU regulations. You can ignore other countries laws. You don't have to bow down to the EU. Edit I don't get why people hate this, but it is a reality.
- narag 8y agoI didn't downvote you, but I guess the problem they see is that it's not practical for any company that sells products or ads to EU countries.
- paulie_a 8y agoFor most websites outside of the EU that is of no concern. For some reason every website that will never do business there seems to be concerned about the EU regulations. A large portion of the internet will never have to comply.
- raverbashing 8y ago> A large portion of the internet will never have to comply. Most sites are out of the scope of the regulation
- paulie_a 8y agoEven if those that are in scope of the regulation they are not in the jurisdiction, so the regulations can be ignored.
- jhasse 8y agoNot if they want to target Europeans.
- paulie_a 8y agoAgain that is my point, most companies don't. The small amount that do will have to. There is a huge amount of companies that will never target Europe. They will never do business or have a presence there. The regulations are irrelevant for them. I've noticed this persistent attitude that somehow eu regulations are globally applicable, in reality they are not.
- liftbigweights 8y ago> If Reddit and other similar sites want to make a point, a banner won't be enough. They need to do the unthinkable: Block all access from the EU. What they need to do is work together in a unified manner like the media and the politicians have done. Instead, they are bickering and fighting against each other while the journalists and politicians form a unified front against freedom and free speech. > Legislators are relying on a population who is too distracted to care what they're doing. Exactly. They rely on a lazy populace and of course relentless anti-tech propaganda from news organizations.
- Moru 8y agoSo what do we do about big countries that does military and political pressure on smaller countries enforcing their copyright laws? The Pirate Bay comes to mind, as does Kim Dotcom. I'm sure there are more but I'm not that interested in the movie garbage from Hollywood to keep up. That the EU starts doing copyright law like this is due to pressure and lobbying mainly from USA.
- raverbashing 8y agoActually most of the lobbying pressure is coming from big copyright companies inside the EU like record companies and associated groups, "Big Content" companies. They have already "militarized" copyright enforcement in Germany with GEMA (though not in the Kim DotCom way)
- Moru 8y agoLearning by watching the other big companies.
- BlackFly 8y ago> Reddit ... the websites where the content is made by users. Except for /r/WorldNews or /r/news or /r/programming or ... The phenomenon certainly exists where hundreds of people will debate an article without ever reading more than the title and maybe seeing a picture. Sometimes the entire article will be copied into the discussion, even. Whether this phenomenon causes harm and requires correction is unclear.
- yummybear 8y ago"Sometimes". Yes, as opposed to "Never". I won't deny that it have happened, but it's certainly nowhere even close to the norm.
- BlackFly 8y agoYes, and take a look at the norm: link to external content. Debate about that content. Reddit's whole business model requires that other people create and host the content. There's nothing wrong with that. Bars hire bands to come play, lots of business models revolve around using other people's works. But at what level should royalties come into play? Certainly never isn't the answer. Only the most unhinged reading of the EU legislation thinks it applies immediately at linking.
- ndnxhs 8y agoThe norm is to link to external content but I doubt the norm is to click on it. Most people vote based on the title so absolute garbage articles make it to the top that aren't worth clicking and then the new reddit UI makes it much harder to get to the external link and very easy to just jump to the comments. Arguably the external content is next to worthless to reddit because they could just make the website text and image posts only and nothing would be lost.
- BlackFly 8y agoYou should have replied to my upper level comment, where I was pointing out this phenomenon. At the level you commented, I was agreeing with the other person that this phenomenon, while lamentable, is not the norm. While I have no data to back that up, at the very least it is not the intended or canonical reddit experience. More to point, I think the phenomenon is somewhat irrelevant to what the EU is trying to achieve, which is what I was alluding to. Even the intended experience of Reddit is to profit off the creations of others without paying royalties. There is obviously arguments to be made on whether that is good or not. The EU seems to believe that it is not just and probably does not believe that moving to a more just approach will not destroy Reddit.
- buboard 8y agothat would be a rash decision. But i would like to see twitter move in that direction: make all tweets copyrighted, and require a fee every time they appear in newspapers.
- pasxizeis 8y agoYeah, that's not going to happen.
- jfoster 8y agoIs there actually an alternative to sites like Reddit blocking EU users if the new law is passed? Best I can think of based on what I know about the law is that perhaps links can't be active for EU users until the domain they go to has an agreement with the site and goes onto the whitelist. This would need to apply to both comments and stories, based on my what I know. Would that work?
- YetAnotherNick 8y agoOr better, get the IPs of EU parliaments and block them.