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Airbnb Backyard will sell houses in 2019

139 points by prostoalex 8y ago

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wdewind 8y ago
I'm pretty sick of celebrating AirBnB. They create so many classic externalities problems and are doing basically nothing to address them despite simple solutions being available, like allowing people to look up addresses and file complaints without being a customer (ie: neighbors of AirBnB owners that are adversely affected). It's obvious why they don't do this: they know there are tons of illegal listings that would immediately be identified and pulled down, and they know that's a significant amount of their business. This doesn't even begin to address the legalities of subleasing, the negative real estate market effects for residents, etc. all of which AirBnB chooses to paper over with ads about how they are helping poor people get additional sources of income. We should be careful trusting them in having a significant role in our real estate system. As a company they behave irrationally and their values, outside of growth at all costs, are shallow, and as a country real estate provides a huge amount of our economic backbone. We're all still really mad at the bankers about the last economic recession, do we want to blame the next one on the tech companies? AirBnB: fix your existing marketplace and show that you can run a proper, legal business before expanding.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  Celebrating? HN is extremely anti-Airbnb.
  - bronson 8y ago
    wdewind was presumably talking about Fast Company, who are most certainly celebrating them.
  - wdewind 8y ago
    Maybe, but AirBnB has also been held up as a positive story of tenacity and disruption in this community as well. It's probably gone on so long it's become a parody of itself, but people keep writing these articles because people keep reading them.
  - throwaway5752 8y ago
    Not really clear on your tone, but HN exists as a tech forum because it is developed and hosted by Y Combinator, which funded Airbnb in a seed round (which I believe they still have, and assume is substantially valuable). So there is the probably more of a complicated community dynamic than "HN is extremely anti-Airbnb"
    - orky56 8y ago
      To that same point, Airbnb investors include pretty much everyone who have also invested in other startup darlings: Sequoia, A16Z, Crunchfund, Google, Founders Fund, Greylock, SV Angel, General Catalyst, KPCB
  - dbspin 8y ago
    Clearly, based on the comments on this article, that isn't remotely true. As someone who lives in a city with one of the most severe rental crisis in the world, with a 3:1 ratio of Airbnb properties to rental properties: I earnestly hope they go bankrupt tomorrow and their founders are tried as accomplices to the violations of local law they facilitate. * https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-...
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  like allowing people to look up addresses and file complaints without being a customer Complain to who, and for what purpose? If your neighbor is breaking the law or violating the terms of their lease, complain to the city or to the property owner. Why are you dragging this platform into it? I don't really want to live in a world where anyone on the internet can destroy my income via anonymous complaint. That seems really ripe for abuse.
  - wdewind 8y ago
    For the same reason we drag YouTube into copyright complaints. You're correct in identifying that there needs to be some kind of fair balance here, but AirBnB makes a lot of business facilitating illegal transactions. I don't really think there are apartments in New York City in which running AirBnB is legal, for instance, and yet NYC is one of their biggest markets. But yes, they also have legitimate, legal business. The trick is it is very difficult for landlords to monitor their properties for this kind of behavior, and also difficult to enforce action against it (getting proof can be extremely difficult, for instance). Because much of AirBnB's business is flat out illegal due to zoning, property laws, HoAs and leases, I think requiring them to provide a better system for accepting accountability for the negative externalities they create is reasonable. > I don't really want to live in a world where anyone on the internet can destroy my income via anonymous complaint. That's not at all what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting an easy way for landlords and others to determine if a property they own or one near them is being listed on AirBnB. After that there are a ton of avenues for justice one could take, and it would probably include, along with government/HoA response, a procedure for forcing AirBnB to take down the listing given proof of ownership or something, similar to DMCA, but this is not an unsolvable problem by any means. It's one AirBnB is choosing not to solve because it would destroy their business.
    - RandallBrown 8y ago
      There is a really easy way for landlords to find out if their property is available on AirBnB or similar services. Just search for the address.
- mullingitover 8y ago
  > ...as a country real estate provides a huge amount of our economic backbone. I could do without the economy depending on real estate being a good investment.
  - wdewind 8y ago
    Well, real estate is a very close proxy for "this place is worth living" which is a very close proxy for absolute population which isn't a direct proxy but is certainly a deeply contributing factor to all around economic growth/success. So while there are tons of policies we can tweak, and I'm sure there are horrible ones that create artificial bubbles, it's not really fully divorceable for the economy.
    - mullingitover 8y ago
      > Well, real estate is a very close proxy for "this place is worth living" which is a very close proxy for absolute population which isn't a direct proxy but is certainly a deeply contributing factor to all around economic growth/success. When the government is primarily working on the numbers (real estate values, tax revenues from real estate) there's a perverse incentive to maximize the numbers rather than serving the needs of the entire population. SF is a great example of this--the real estate market is a disaster for the middle class, but it's fantastic for the landowners and the city. Indeed, it's in the interests of both of those aforementioned parties to drive out the middle class from the region and replace them with more wealthy buyers. The whole system depends on this happening or it risks collapse.
  - nostromo 8y ago
    That day will never come - at least not without blood in the streets - because we've painted ourselves into a corner. Money is created via bank loans. The largest bucket of loans in the US is mortgage debt -- and it's worth trillions more than any other type. Should this source of newly minted dollars dry up, the US could very quickly fall into a liquidity crisis. So, yeah, it's easy to shake our fists at high housing costs -- but what most people don't realize is that almost every dollar you've ever touched or earned was born in some other person's mortgage.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  I also noticed they're talking about these new dwellings being smart/connected. I told my roommate if he ever got an Amazon Echo/Google Home device, I'd shatter it with a hammer and throw it in the trash. Sears sold kit homes at the turn of the century (which arrived in train box cars and took 3 ~ 6 months to assemble), some which are still around today. I'd rather have something like that, which people can put together, without AirBNB doing a Google/Facebook style collection operation (I'm pretty sure they'll collect data they can sell to reduce the costs and gain a long tail profit).
- gowld 8y ago
  Occasional reminder that AirBnB was originally "growth-hacked" with a campaign of deceiptful and TOS-violating Craiglist spam, and your forum host and YC founder specifically looks to fund for founders who break rules (including laws) "that don't matter" (to the rulebreaker), on the advice of YC's current president.
  - lifeisstillgood 8y ago
    I would be interested in collating a list of these sort of issues (Which laws were broken by which branch of Uber etc?) has anyone made a start?
    - dvtrn 8y ago
      I actually started to do something similar to this when Uber was Lobbying the state legislature of Texas[1] to preempt Austin's goals of regulating background checks and fingerprinting drivers, but never really kept up with it. --- [1] https://www.theregreview.org/2018/06/28/schriever-uber-lyft-lobby-deregulation-preemption/ https://www.theregreview.org/2018/06/28/schriever-uber-lyft-...
  - rchaud 8y ago
    If you succeeded, your underhanded tactics suddenly get re-framed in the press as fearless audacity and keen business acumen. If you failed, your underhanded tactics become a cautionary tale, and a reminder of why it<s important to remain ethical in business.
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vidoc 8y ago
It'll be a lot of fun if they charge the kind of outrageous fee they collect for their regular service.
24gttghh 8y ago
Well at least they're more likely to have to follow local housing/zoning laws if they're going to be outright constructing new buildings, right? Right??
- djsumdog 8y ago
  Just like Uber does right?
mikeryan 8y ago
It's interesting to note that California has some incentives in place to help increase housing and Accessory Dwellings are one that frequently are easy to get permission to build. I know here in Berkeley we have new laws in place making this process way easier. https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/03/20/new-laws-make-even-easier-build-backyard-cottages-berkeley https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/03/20/new-laws-make-even-e...
- yonran 8y ago
  While the state of California and some cities have been making it legal to construct accessory dwelling units, cities commonly prohibit short-term rentals in these accessory dwelling units. (Reference: Berkeley’s BMC 23C.22.020.D [1], and San Francisco’s Planning Code 207(c)(4)(D) [2]). In such cities, it seems that the law discourages you from adding an ADU with kitchen if you want to rent it out on Airbnb (or if you want to rent it out long-term, for that matter, if rent control would apply). It’s less restrictive to add bedrooms without the kitchen. I don’t think Airbnb will be able to build test homes in these restrictive cities either. [1]: https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/html/Berkeley23C/Berkeley23C22/Berkeley23C22020.html#23C.22.020 https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/html/Berkeley23C/... [2]: http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/planning/article2usedistricts?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca$anc=JD_207 http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/planni...
- organsnyder 8y ago
  That's good to hear. In my town (Grand Rapids, MI) they've been on the radar for a few years, but some NIMBY neighborhood organizations keep killing reform. While the Grand Rapids housing market is far from the craziness of much of California, we are experiencing a significant housing crunch, and costs are rising rapidly—especially relative to wages. We're actually in the process of building one right now (detached garage with ADU above), and we had to go through the Special Land Use process, which entailed paying a $2000 fee and presenting at a Planning Commission meeting. Most of the other items on the agenda were for things like a nonprofit building office space in a residential neighborhood, a large proposed housing development, and the like. Our little $185k project required the same paperwork and fee as those multi-million dollar endeavors. IMHO, ADUs have a ton of upsides for communities with few downsides: they increase density with minimal impact to the character of the neighborhood (while we demolished a 80-year-old garage, our 102-year-old house is being left alone), enable small-scale upper-middle-class landlords, and activate underutilized space (such as replacing old functionally obsolete detached garages). I wonder if there's a market for investors to fund ADU projects, similar to how Solar City and the like sell PV installations: the investor pays for the construction of an ADU, under the condition that they are entitled (via a deed rider) to the majority of rental earnings until the loan is paid off. This would be more complicated (and probably more risky) than the PV business—with PV you don't have to worry about vacancies, managing tenants, and the like—but I think it could work in certain markets, as long as enlightened municipalities remove unnecessary roadblocks.
dougmwne 8y ago
Attempting a summary since this article was dripping with SV BS. As far as I can tell, they plan to launch some kind of modular prefab home that could scale from adding a backyard cottage to your home, all the way to a multi-family dwelling. There's an indirect hint that they may be considering including some level of space saving furnishing or some other kind of batteries included prefab home.
- moflome 8y ago
  Thanks for posting this if nothing else as an counterpoint to the vitriol in other comments... perhaps the best example of their current work is a joint effort with a small city in Western Japan [0] which, from having visited this region of Japan, seems like a great benefit to the local community - economic and social. I hope this is the direction Joe Gebbia and team are heading. [0]: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/14378543?s=51 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/14378543?s=51
  - dougmwne 8y ago
    I usually try to be a bit more constructive than an article summary, but the discussion here was seriously off the rails. Whatever their failings as a company, prefab homes at AirBnB scale could be very interesting, especially since there're ongoing housing crises all over the USA.
    - Balgair 8y ago
      > housing crises all over the USA. If they can really get the economics of scale going, this has broader implications for long term disaster relief, poverty (not extreme poverty unfortunately), refugees, and climate change migrations. Cheap, robust, and easy housing has long been a goal for architects. Bauhaus has it's roots in German communist housing for the masses, after-all.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        Isn’t a lot of cost of housing in local labour (building the houses or building the bulk materials like brick or planks locally) Would prefab housing really help with poverty when the production is suddenly offshored?
pingec 8y ago
I guess they need to pivot a bit. Since they jacked up fees to booking.com levels they are just a booking.com equivalent in my eyes, the prices are not cheaper anymore.
- dazc 8y ago
  I like paying hotel level prices on airbnb yet, at the same time, be expected to put up with stuff as if I'm staying over at a friend's house for free. And, if I don't give a 5 star review, I'm a jerk?
  - ralusek 8y ago
    If you don't like it, don't use it. If enough people don't like it, they will change or go out of business. My experiences have been awesome, personally.
vthallam 8y ago
Well, guess this is a way to add small units to extra space people have which could then be served as Airbnb's. Overall, Airbnb experience is not the same. The prices are equivalent or in certain cases more than what Hotels charge. And in most cases, you don't get the same kind of privacy/facilities that hotels provide. I stopped even looking for Airbnb unless it's a really nice place which offers some kind of experience which hotels doesn't.
- mrgordon 8y ago
  "The prices are equivalent or in certain cases more than what Hotels charge" You conveniently ignore the huge number of cases where its cheaper than a hotel (especially a suite for a family) and the fact that it contains a kitchen and many other time/money saving amenities
cbhl 8y ago
At some point does Airbnb just turn into the Hyatt, except with hotels in the shape of a gated community instead of in the shape of a big boxy hotel?
- setr 8y ago
  Tbh that still constitutes a significant ahift in societal norms primarily executed by a single company; if they accomplish just that much, they’ve accomplished quite a bit (ofc, it's also a naturally goes hand-in-hand with things like uber). In a hundred years, architects/urban planners will easily point to this decade as the age of... something (particularly because with any change in societal values will come changes elsewhere; if this sticks, we’ll inevitably start seeing changes in house design and city planning to support it)
DarkContinent 8y ago
How does AirBnB plan to ensure compliance with local construction regulations? That seems like it could be rather expensive for this endeavor.
- psychometry 8y ago
  It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission.
- 706f6f70 8y ago
  Move fast and break things™️.
- interesthrow2 8y ago
  Just disrupt compliance with local construction regulations! it worked with illegal hotels before...
- icebraining 8y ago
  Probably the same way any other prefab homes building company does.
codezero 8y ago
I'm banned from AirBnB, not that I would buy a house from them, but I wonder if I would be banned from buying a house from them too :P
- chelmzy 8y ago
  Why were you banned?
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    They probably violated the TOS.
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      Not necessarily, have a friend IRL who was accused of damaging a room he stayed in, he didn't, he was threatened to be banned from their site if he did anything like that again and they fined him for it without proof. Uber has a similar problem of drivers scamming riders for "spills".
      - eric_h 8y ago
        > Uber has a similar problem of drivers scamming riders for "spills". Can confirm a driver attempted to do this to me. He splashed a little water on his (plastic) floor mat and shredded a tiny piece of paper that had fallen out of my pocket, then reported me and attempted to charge me $45 for the cleaning. I was furious and after a little back and forth with Uber support (which included them sending me photos the driver took of the 'spill') got my money back. He also pulled this scam before I had left a rating - he's the only Uber driver for whom I've given a 1 star rating.
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        > he's the only Uber driver for whom I've given a 1 star rating Why would you give that interaction any stars at all?
ryanmarsh 8y ago
Will they also tell me if the property will cashflow on AirBnb at that price?
sethbannon 8y ago
There's a startup called Cover that's already making homes and ADUs exactly as Airbnb says they hope to make them. Their vision is to build homes like Tesla builds cars. If you live in the LA area, you can order one online and get it delivered in 6 months. https://www.cover.build https://www.cover.build
- yellowapple 8y ago
  "Their vision is to build homes like Tesla builds cars." So... with severe delays and rising costs?
  - cma 8y ago
    Never hit the entry-level price target, but sell a few of the higher-end ones software locked to emulate the lower-end and say you did (then quickly discontinue).
  - sethbannon 8y ago
    Maybe the goal should be to build homes like Toyota builds cars? :D
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      That's what I'm thinking. Sayonara, housing crisis!
- blcArmadillo 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing. These look pretty nice but I just can't get over the price of a lot of these prefab and tiny homes. From Cover's FAQ page (https://www.cover.build/faq https://www.cover.build/faq): How much do Cover structures cost? Most of our structures cost between $300-400 per square foot, all inclusive. Seems expensive to me. Isn't part of the promise of prefab lower costs?
  - why_only_15 8y ago
    Huh that is really expensive. According to Fixr, average cost per square foot is $117 [0], so Cover is ~3x as expensive. The benefits of going prefab would have to be pretty extreme to be willing to do that [0]: https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-single-family-house https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-single-family-house
danielor 8y ago
They are planning on getting growth from that?!?! They should have IPO'd a long time ago to get their exit.
resters 8y ago
For Airbnb this is a very smart move. Airbnb knows demand and supply extremely well and is poised to be able to offer some very highly leveraged financial products to fund the buildout. This is in my opinion the most significant initiative being done by any SV or YC company. By significant I mean that it promises to end a lot of market failures and disrupt a lot of big players. At the risk of making this comment too long for casual readers, I'll elaborate: Consider the incentives for developers. They buy and develop plots of land or existing distressed properties with the goal of bundling as many profitable sales into the same heavily subsidized financing event. When the developer sells a property for $500K there may be $250K in the land, $100K in the structure, and another $150K in things like appliances, furnishing, HVAC, etc. The sale is largely emotional and is driven by the way it is legal to bundle all those add-ons into the subsidized financing. This fact alone explains much about the housing bubble. The $150K worth of bundled items are worth $75K after they have been used for a week. The buyer consents to this because it's the cheapest way to finance a luxurious lifestyle, even though it's marked up significantly. As long as the market keeps going up, the buyer doesn't get bitten by it. Airbnb knows which parts of the financing bundle make sense for long term value and which can be most profitably leveraged when the unit is used as an Airbnb listing. If you think of a rental property simply as an asset, you want the kitchen renovated periodically to maximize the market value of the listing. Landlords with 12 month leases, mortgage companies with 30 year mortgages, and most notably real estate brokers with <30 day commissions have no incentive to maximize any of those elements, and have plenty of incentive simply to maximize the amount financed. Airbnb's interests align perfectly with home buyers on this, in a way that the incumbents' do not. If this takes off at scale it will reduce profits for realtors, builders, developers, and interior decorators/furniture sellers. It's a pretty amazing opportunity that uniquely maximizes the value of Airbnb's data. Wow.
ninjakeyboard 8y ago
"Sell Houses" does not mean "A Service to Put your house on the market" in this case. Title on HN is a bit misleading.
Tiktaalik 8y ago
Such an ADU would already be banned by Vancouver's recent Airbnb regulations.
matchbok 8y ago
I wonder what regulations they'll skirt to further extract money out of our communities like they have been doing so far.
danenania 8y ago
This is cool, but selfishly speaking, the area I'd really like to see Airbnb sink their teeth into is the apartment rental market. I've rented a few long-term (~3 month) sublets on Airbnb, and the process was light years better than dealing with landlords. For example--I've avoided credit cards and loans in the past because I've been lucky enough to have sufficient savings and wanted to keep things simple. This means I have a sparse credit history. I've always had a steady income though, and have rented for many years without ever being so much as a single day late on a payment. Despite this, I get treated like I'm from outer space just because I haven't needed to put myself into debt. It's just such an utterly stupid evaluation criteria. I'm provably a great tenant, but can easily get passed over in favor of someone who has a much worse record, but keeps their credit score high. With Airbnb, I am judged by my actual relevant track record--a lessor can see that again and again I fulfill my obligations and make a good impression. And of course, there's more accountability on the other side too since tenants can leave reviews. There's just so much inefficiency they could clean up here.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I would recommend to get a few credit cards so you have a credit rating. Just don't use them for credit. Make a few purchases, pay them off and life is much easier.
  - danenania 8y ago
    I know--everyone tells me this, but at this point I kind of like taking a stand against a system/culture that I consider unfair and designed to benefit banks and cc companies. While it's been inconvenient at times, I'm always able to manage. Also, as a founder, I like to minimize the things I need to keep track of, and I prefer the simple financial discipline of only spending money I have in the bank. I do use a corporate credit card (Brex), but it's one that is specifically designed to be hands-off so that in practice it works more like a debit card. Sidenote/plug: Brex is an awesome credit card for startups, and they have a far more enlightened approach to credit history than other cards, being started by two immigrant founders who couldn't get approved for anything despite having plenty of investment money in the bank. I was able to sign up and have a functioning card with decent limits in ~5 minutes. Pretty amazing. I have no connection to them btw (is that why I'm getting downvoted?), just a happy user.
thoughtstheseus 8y ago
Airbnb is getting people to buy houses, a high priced asset for most, while they run an asset-light business that devalues physical assets. Crazy
xivzgrev 8y ago
I’m not entirely clear what they are proposing. They want to reimagine housing, and something about more energy efficient.
simonebrunozzi 8y ago
My humble opinion on what this means for AirBnB and the market: https://medium.com/@simon/airbnb-wants-to-reinvent-the-city-one-house-at-the-time-4f9a9312bd9c https://medium.com/@simon/airbnb-wants-to-reinvent-the-city-...
calvertdw 8y ago
Website does not display on Firefox mobile.

139 points by prostoalex 8y ago

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wdewind 8y ago

I'm pretty sick of celebrating AirBnB. They create so many classic externalities problems and are doing basically nothing to address them despite simple solutions being available, like allowing people to look up addresses and file complaints without being a customer (ie: neighbors of AirBnB owners that are adversely affected). It's obvious why they don't do this: they know there are tons of illegal listings that would immediately be identified and pulled down, and they know that's a significant amount of their business. This doesn't even begin to address the legalities of subleasing, the negative real estate market effects for residents, etc. all of which AirBnB chooses to paper over with ads about how they are helping poor people get additional sources of income. We should be careful trusting them in having a significant role in our real estate system. As a company they behave irrationally and their values, outside of growth at all costs, are shallow, and as a country real estate provides a huge amount of our economic backbone. We're all still really mad at the bankers about the last economic recession, do we want to blame the next one on the tech companies? AirBnB: fix your existing marketplace and show that you can run a proper, legal business before expanding.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
Celebrating? HN is extremely anti-Airbnb.
- bronson 8y ago
  wdewind was presumably talking about Fast Company, who are most certainly celebrating them.
- wdewind 8y ago
  Maybe, but AirBnB has also been held up as a positive story of tenacity and disruption in this community as well. It's probably gone on so long it's become a parody of itself, but people keep writing these articles because people keep reading them.
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  Not really clear on your tone, but HN exists as a tech forum because it is developed and hosted by Y Combinator, which funded Airbnb in a seed round (which I believe they still have, and assume is substantially valuable). So there is the probably more of a complicated community dynamic than "HN is extremely anti-Airbnb"
  - orky56 8y ago
    To that same point, Airbnb investors include pretty much everyone who have also invested in other startup darlings: Sequoia, A16Z, Crunchfund, Google, Founders Fund, Greylock, SV Angel, General Catalyst, KPCB
- dbspin 8y ago
  Clearly, based on the comments on this article, that isn't remotely true. As someone who lives in a city with one of the most severe rental crisis in the world, with a 3:1 ratio of Airbnb properties to rental properties: I earnestly hope they go bankrupt tomorrow and their founders are tried as accomplices to the violations of local law they facilitate. * https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-...
ryanwaggoner 8y ago
like allowing people to look up addresses and file complaints without being a customer Complain to who, and for what purpose? If your neighbor is breaking the law or violating the terms of their lease, complain to the city or to the property owner. Why are you dragging this platform into it? I don't really want to live in a world where anyone on the internet can destroy my income via anonymous complaint. That seems really ripe for abuse.
- wdewind 8y ago
  For the same reason we drag YouTube into copyright complaints. You're correct in identifying that there needs to be some kind of fair balance here, but AirBnB makes a lot of business facilitating illegal transactions. I don't really think there are apartments in New York City in which running AirBnB is legal, for instance, and yet NYC is one of their biggest markets. But yes, they also have legitimate, legal business. The trick is it is very difficult for landlords to monitor their properties for this kind of behavior, and also difficult to enforce action against it (getting proof can be extremely difficult, for instance). Because much of AirBnB's business is flat out illegal due to zoning, property laws, HoAs and leases, I think requiring them to provide a better system for accepting accountability for the negative externalities they create is reasonable. > I don't really want to live in a world where anyone on the internet can destroy my income via anonymous complaint. That's not at all what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting an easy way for landlords and others to determine if a property they own or one near them is being listed on AirBnB. After that there are a ton of avenues for justice one could take, and it would probably include, along with government/HoA response, a procedure for forcing AirBnB to take down the listing given proof of ownership or something, similar to DMCA, but this is not an unsolvable problem by any means. It's one AirBnB is choosing not to solve because it would destroy their business.
  - RandallBrown 8y ago
    There is a really easy way for landlords to find out if their property is available on AirBnB or similar services. Just search for the address.
mullingitover 8y ago
> ...as a country real estate provides a huge amount of our economic backbone. I could do without the economy depending on real estate being a good investment.
- wdewind 8y ago
  Well, real estate is a very close proxy for "this place is worth living" which is a very close proxy for absolute population which isn't a direct proxy but is certainly a deeply contributing factor to all around economic growth/success. So while there are tons of policies we can tweak, and I'm sure there are horrible ones that create artificial bubbles, it's not really fully divorceable for the economy.
  - mullingitover 8y ago
    > Well, real estate is a very close proxy for "this place is worth living" which is a very close proxy for absolute population which isn't a direct proxy but is certainly a deeply contributing factor to all around economic growth/success. When the government is primarily working on the numbers (real estate values, tax revenues from real estate) there's a perverse incentive to maximize the numbers rather than serving the needs of the entire population. SF is a great example of this--the real estate market is a disaster for the middle class, but it's fantastic for the landowners and the city. Indeed, it's in the interests of both of those aforementioned parties to drive out the middle class from the region and replace them with more wealthy buyers. The whole system depends on this happening or it risks collapse.
- nostromo 8y ago
  That day will never come - at least not without blood in the streets - because we've painted ourselves into a corner. Money is created via bank loans. The largest bucket of loans in the US is mortgage debt -- and it's worth trillions more than any other type. Should this source of newly minted dollars dry up, the US could very quickly fall into a liquidity crisis. So, yeah, it's easy to shake our fists at high housing costs -- but what most people don't realize is that almost every dollar you've ever touched or earned was born in some other person's mortgage.
djsumdog 8y ago
I also noticed they're talking about these new dwellings being smart/connected. I told my roommate if he ever got an Amazon Echo/Google Home device, I'd shatter it with a hammer and throw it in the trash. Sears sold kit homes at the turn of the century (which arrived in train box cars and took 3 ~ 6 months to assemble), some which are still around today. I'd rather have something like that, which people can put together, without AirBNB doing a Google/Facebook style collection operation (I'm pretty sure they'll collect data they can sell to reduce the costs and gain a long tail profit).
gowld 8y ago
Occasional reminder that AirBnB was originally "growth-hacked" with a campaign of deceiptful and TOS-violating Craiglist spam, and your forum host and YC founder specifically looks to fund for founders who break rules (including laws) "that don't matter" (to the rulebreaker), on the advice of YC's current president.
- lifeisstillgood 8y ago
  I would be interested in collating a list of these sort of issues (Which laws were broken by which branch of Uber etc?) has anyone made a start?
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    I actually started to do something similar to this when Uber was Lobbying the state legislature of Texas[1] to preempt Austin's goals of regulating background checks and fingerprinting drivers, but never really kept up with it. --- [1] https://www.theregreview.org/2018/06/28/schriever-uber-lyft-lobby-deregulation-preemption/ https://www.theregreview.org/2018/06/28/schriever-uber-lyft-...
- rchaud 8y ago
  If you succeeded, your underhanded tactics suddenly get re-framed in the press as fearless audacity and keen business acumen. If you failed, your underhanded tactics become a cautionary tale, and a reminder of why it<s important to remain ethical in business.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

vidoc 8y ago

It'll be a lot of fun if they charge the kind of outrageous fee they collect for their regular service.

24gttghh 8y ago

Well at least they're more likely to have to follow local housing/zoning laws if they're going to be outright constructing new buildings, right? Right??

djsumdog 8y ago
Just like Uber does right?

mikeryan 8y ago

It's interesting to note that California has some incentives in place to help increase housing and Accessory Dwellings are one that frequently are easy to get permission to build. I know here in Berkeley we have new laws in place making this process way easier. https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/03/20/new-laws-make-even-easier-build-backyard-cottages-berkeley https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/03/20/new-laws-make-even-e...

yonran 8y ago
While the state of California and some cities have been making it legal to construct accessory dwelling units, cities commonly prohibit short-term rentals in these accessory dwelling units. (Reference: Berkeley’s BMC 23C.22.020.D [1], and San Francisco’s Planning Code 207(c)(4)(D) [2]). In such cities, it seems that the law discourages you from adding an ADU with kitchen if you want to rent it out on Airbnb (or if you want to rent it out long-term, for that matter, if rent control would apply). It’s less restrictive to add bedrooms without the kitchen. I don’t think Airbnb will be able to build test homes in these restrictive cities either. [1]: https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/html/Berkeley23C/Berkeley23C22/Berkeley23C22020.html#23C.22.020 https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/html/Berkeley23C/... [2]: http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/planning/article2usedistricts?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca$anc=JD_207 http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/planni...
organsnyder 8y ago
That's good to hear. In my town (Grand Rapids, MI) they've been on the radar for a few years, but some NIMBY neighborhood organizations keep killing reform. While the Grand Rapids housing market is far from the craziness of much of California, we are experiencing a significant housing crunch, and costs are rising rapidly—especially relative to wages. We're actually in the process of building one right now (detached garage with ADU above), and we had to go through the Special Land Use process, which entailed paying a $2000 fee and presenting at a Planning Commission meeting. Most of the other items on the agenda were for things like a nonprofit building office space in a residential neighborhood, a large proposed housing development, and the like. Our little $185k project required the same paperwork and fee as those multi-million dollar endeavors. IMHO, ADUs have a ton of upsides for communities with few downsides: they increase density with minimal impact to the character of the neighborhood (while we demolished a 80-year-old garage, our 102-year-old house is being left alone), enable small-scale upper-middle-class landlords, and activate underutilized space (such as replacing old functionally obsolete detached garages). I wonder if there's a market for investors to fund ADU projects, similar to how Solar City and the like sell PV installations: the investor pays for the construction of an ADU, under the condition that they are entitled (via a deed rider) to the majority of rental earnings until the loan is paid off. This would be more complicated (and probably more risky) than the PV business—with PV you don't have to worry about vacancies, managing tenants, and the like—but I think it could work in certain markets, as long as enlightened municipalities remove unnecessary roadblocks.

dougmwne 8y ago

Attempting a summary since this article was dripping with SV BS. As far as I can tell, they plan to launch some kind of modular prefab home that could scale from adding a backyard cottage to your home, all the way to a multi-family dwelling. There's an indirect hint that they may be considering including some level of space saving furnishing or some other kind of batteries included prefab home.

moflome 8y ago
Thanks for posting this if nothing else as an counterpoint to the vitriol in other comments... perhaps the best example of their current work is a joint effort with a small city in Western Japan [0] which, from having visited this region of Japan, seems like a great benefit to the local community - economic and social. I hope this is the direction Joe Gebbia and team are heading. [0]: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/14378543?s=51 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/14378543?s=51
- dougmwne 8y ago
  I usually try to be a bit more constructive than an article summary, but the discussion here was seriously off the rails. Whatever their failings as a company, prefab homes at AirBnB scale could be very interesting, especially since there're ongoing housing crises all over the USA.
  - Balgair 8y ago
    > housing crises all over the USA. If they can really get the economics of scale going, this has broader implications for long term disaster relief, poverty (not extreme poverty unfortunately), refugees, and climate change migrations. Cheap, robust, and easy housing has long been a goal for architects. Bauhaus has it's roots in German communist housing for the masses, after-all.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      Isn’t a lot of cost of housing in local labour (building the houses or building the bulk materials like brick or planks locally) Would prefab housing really help with poverty when the production is suddenly offshored?

pingec 8y ago

I guess they need to pivot a bit. Since they jacked up fees to booking.com levels they are just a booking.com equivalent in my eyes, the prices are not cheaper anymore.

dazc 8y ago
I like paying hotel level prices on airbnb yet, at the same time, be expected to put up with stuff as if I'm staying over at a friend's house for free. And, if I don't give a 5 star review, I'm a jerk?
- ralusek 8y ago
  If you don't like it, don't use it. If enough people don't like it, they will change or go out of business. My experiences have been awesome, personally.

vthallam 8y ago

Well, guess this is a way to add small units to extra space people have which could then be served as Airbnb's. Overall, Airbnb experience is not the same. The prices are equivalent or in certain cases more than what Hotels charge. And in most cases, you don't get the same kind of privacy/facilities that hotels provide. I stopped even looking for Airbnb unless it's a really nice place which offers some kind of experience which hotels doesn't.

mrgordon 8y ago
"The prices are equivalent or in certain cases more than what Hotels charge" You conveniently ignore the huge number of cases where its cheaper than a hotel (especially a suite for a family) and the fact that it contains a kitchen and many other time/money saving amenities

cbhl 8y ago

At some point does Airbnb just turn into the Hyatt, except with hotels in the shape of a gated community instead of in the shape of a big boxy hotel?

setr 8y ago
Tbh that still constitutes a significant ahift in societal norms primarily executed by a single company; if they accomplish just that much, they’ve accomplished quite a bit (ofc, it's also a naturally goes hand-in-hand with things like uber). In a hundred years, architects/urban planners will easily point to this decade as the age of... something (particularly because with any change in societal values will come changes elsewhere; if this sticks, we’ll inevitably start seeing changes in house design and city planning to support it)

DarkContinent 8y ago

How does AirBnB plan to ensure compliance with local construction regulations? That seems like it could be rather expensive for this endeavor.

psychometry 8y ago
It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission.
706f6f70 8y ago
Move fast and break things™️.
interesthrow2 8y ago
Just disrupt compliance with local construction regulations! it worked with illegal hotels before...
icebraining 8y ago
Probably the same way any other prefab homes building company does.

codezero 8y ago

I'm banned from AirBnB, not that I would buy a house from them, but I wonder if I would be banned from buying a house from them too :P

chelmzy 8y ago
Why were you banned?
- craftyguy 8y ago
  They probably violated the TOS.
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    Not necessarily, have a friend IRL who was accused of damaging a room he stayed in, he didn't, he was threatened to be banned from their site if he did anything like that again and they fined him for it without proof. Uber has a similar problem of drivers scamming riders for "spills".
    - eric_h 8y ago
      > Uber has a similar problem of drivers scamming riders for "spills". Can confirm a driver attempted to do this to me. He splashed a little water on his (plastic) floor mat and shredded a tiny piece of paper that had fallen out of my pocket, then reported me and attempted to charge me $45 for the cleaning. I was furious and after a little back and forth with Uber support (which included them sending me photos the driver took of the 'spill') got my money back. He also pulled this scam before I had left a rating - he's the only Uber driver for whom I've given a 1 star rating.
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        > he's the only Uber driver for whom I've given a 1 star rating Why would you give that interaction any stars at all?

ryanmarsh 8y ago

Will they also tell me if the property will cashflow on AirBnb at that price?

sethbannon 8y ago

There's a startup called Cover that's already making homes and ADUs exactly as Airbnb says they hope to make them. Their vision is to build homes like Tesla builds cars. If you live in the LA area, you can order one online and get it delivered in 6 months. https://www.cover.build https://www.cover.build

yellowapple 8y ago
"Their vision is to build homes like Tesla builds cars." So... with severe delays and rising costs?
- cma 8y ago
  Never hit the entry-level price target, but sell a few of the higher-end ones software locked to emulate the lower-end and say you did (then quickly discontinue).
- sethbannon 8y ago
  Maybe the goal should be to build homes like Toyota builds cars? :D
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    That's what I'm thinking. Sayonara, housing crisis!
blcArmadillo 8y ago
Thanks for sharing. These look pretty nice but I just can't get over the price of a lot of these prefab and tiny homes. From Cover's FAQ page (https://www.cover.build/faq https://www.cover.build/faq): How much do Cover structures cost? Most of our structures cost between $300-400 per square foot, all inclusive. Seems expensive to me. Isn't part of the promise of prefab lower costs?
- why_only_15 8y ago
  Huh that is really expensive. According to Fixr, average cost per square foot is $117 [0], so Cover is ~3x as expensive. The benefits of going prefab would have to be pretty extreme to be willing to do that [0]: https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-single-family-house https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-single-family-house

danielor 8y ago

They are planning on getting growth from that?!?! They should have IPO'd a long time ago to get their exit.

resters 8y ago

For Airbnb this is a very smart move. Airbnb knows demand and supply extremely well and is poised to be able to offer some very highly leveraged financial products to fund the buildout. This is in my opinion the most significant initiative being done by any SV or YC company. By significant I mean that it promises to end a lot of market failures and disrupt a lot of big players. At the risk of making this comment too long for casual readers, I'll elaborate: Consider the incentives for developers. They buy and develop plots of land or existing distressed properties with the goal of bundling as many profitable sales into the same heavily subsidized financing event. When the developer sells a property for $500K there may be $250K in the land, $100K in the structure, and another $150K in things like appliances, furnishing, HVAC, etc. The sale is largely emotional and is driven by the way it is legal to bundle all those add-ons into the subsidized financing. This fact alone explains much about the housing bubble. The $150K worth of bundled items are worth $75K after they have been used for a week. The buyer consents to this because it's the cheapest way to finance a luxurious lifestyle, even though it's marked up significantly. As long as the market keeps going up, the buyer doesn't get bitten by it. Airbnb knows which parts of the financing bundle make sense for long term value and which can be most profitably leveraged when the unit is used as an Airbnb listing. If you think of a rental property simply as an asset, you want the kitchen renovated periodically to maximize the market value of the listing. Landlords with 12 month leases, mortgage companies with 30 year mortgages, and most notably real estate brokers with <30 day commissions have no incentive to maximize any of those elements, and have plenty of incentive simply to maximize the amount financed. Airbnb's interests align perfectly with home buyers on this, in a way that the incumbents' do not. If this takes off at scale it will reduce profits for realtors, builders, developers, and interior decorators/furniture sellers. It's a pretty amazing opportunity that uniquely maximizes the value of Airbnb's data. Wow.

ninjakeyboard 8y ago

"Sell Houses" does not mean "A Service to Put your house on the market" in this case. Title on HN is a bit misleading.

Tiktaalik 8y ago

Such an ADU would already be banned by Vancouver's recent Airbnb regulations.

matchbok 8y ago

I wonder what regulations they'll skirt to further extract money out of our communities like they have been doing so far.

danenania 8y ago

This is cool, but selfishly speaking, the area I'd really like to see Airbnb sink their teeth into is the apartment rental market. I've rented a few long-term (~3 month) sublets on Airbnb, and the process was light years better than dealing with landlords. For example--I've avoided credit cards and loans in the past because I've been lucky enough to have sufficient savings and wanted to keep things simple. This means I have a sparse credit history. I've always had a steady income though, and have rented for many years without ever being so much as a single day late on a payment. Despite this, I get treated like I'm from outer space just because I haven't needed to put myself into debt. It's just such an utterly stupid evaluation criteria. I'm provably a great tenant, but can easily get passed over in favor of someone who has a much worse record, but keeps their credit score high. With Airbnb, I am judged by my actual relevant track record--a lessor can see that again and again I fulfill my obligations and make a good impression. And of course, there's more accountability on the other side too since tenants can leave reviews. There's just so much inefficiency they could clean up here.

maxxxxx 8y ago
I would recommend to get a few credit cards so you have a credit rating. Just don't use them for credit. Make a few purchases, pay them off and life is much easier.
- danenania 8y ago
  I know--everyone tells me this, but at this point I kind of like taking a stand against a system/culture that I consider unfair and designed to benefit banks and cc companies. While it's been inconvenient at times, I'm always able to manage. Also, as a founder, I like to minimize the things I need to keep track of, and I prefer the simple financial discipline of only spending money I have in the bank. I do use a corporate credit card (Brex), but it's one that is specifically designed to be hands-off so that in practice it works more like a debit card. Sidenote/plug: Brex is an awesome credit card for startups, and they have a far more enlightened approach to credit history than other cards, being started by two immigrant founders who couldn't get approved for anything despite having plenty of investment money in the bank. I was able to sign up and have a functioning card with decent limits in ~5 minutes. Pretty amazing. I have no connection to them btw (is that why I'm getting downvoted?), just a happy user.

thoughtstheseus 8y ago

Airbnb is getting people to buy houses, a high priced asset for most, while they run an asset-light business that devalues physical assets. Crazy

xivzgrev 8y ago

I’m not entirely clear what they are proposing. They want to reimagine housing, and something about more energy efficient.

simonebrunozzi 8y ago

My humble opinion on what this means for AirBnB and the market: https://medium.com/@simon/airbnb-wants-to-reinvent-the-city-one-house-at-the-time-4f9a9312bd9c https://medium.com/@simon/airbnb-wants-to-reinvent-the-city-...

calvertdw 8y ago

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