5 ms·

This article points out lots of false or at least weak assumptions that programmers make about names. But it doesn't really address the root of the problem: why

This article points out lots of false or at least weak assumptions that programmers make about names. But it doesn't really address the root of the problem: why programmers make these assumptions in the first place. There are two main reasons: 1. UI/vanity: it's nice to see your name in your app/email somewhere, and to display your name, the software often must make assumptions about your name. 2. Disambiguation: Software often has to determine if "Jon Livingston" is the same as "Jonathan M. Livingston". That is by it's nature pretty error prone, but over a finite and well understood dataset, can be made to be relatively accurate. At it's worst, this article says that the two pieces of functionality above are impossible. At it's best, it says that they are possible, but there are a number of things you need to consider. I'm an optimist, but I'd like to see more that points to the latter.

Sharlin 8y ago
If you want to refer to a user by a "friendly" name, the registration form should have a "I prefer to be addressed as" field instead of ass-uming anything.
- speedplane 8y ago
  Okay, so now your signup form has "first name", "last name" , plus "preferred name". Seems pretty minor, doesn't it, yet adding that next question drops signups say 4%. Is it really worth asking the question if you're going to scare away 4% of your customers? Or do you try to make due with what you have?
jcelerier 8y ago
> Software often has to determine if "Jon Livingston" is the same as "Jonathan M. Livingston" wat ? what kind of software does that ? that's dumb as hell. You have one name and that's the one on your id card.
- matt4077 8y ago
  This article might be of interest to you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18567548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18567548
- pjc50 8y ago
  a) I don't have an ID card b) I rarely use my middle name or initial, except on "official" documents c) People abbreviate their names a lot d) Sometimes it's helpful to match people with the same name at the same address as being the same person .. and sometimes it's adversarial.
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    Ad d: an acquaintance of mine named his son after himself. We don't do suffixes here, so no "II." or "Junior" - they're both Mr. Foo Bar, at Baz Drive, Quuxtown. The age differs, of course, but rarely does anyone collect it, much less use it for disambiguation. As you say, it's a mixed bag - either you get to impersonate the other, or the police gets all confused when looking for a rowdy adolescent and finding a middle-aged man, or you just can't get booked ("we already have you here" "no you don't, that's my son" "that's impossible, there can't be two of you, computer says so!").
  - speedplane 8y ago
    "Correcting" names is more than just a data-scientist-cleanup procedure, it's a political one too. Some states now require names on voter registrations to exactly match the names on IDs. I run a law firm analytics company across a few continents, I wishit was easy as saying "stop working with that team", "start working with thos team".. For our handul of big accounts, the want more than just our "service" at this bra, they want our love. So now the little bug that failed to match Michael Sander with Michael Sanders, Esg., leads to under or overcounting in a general election, and we've seen that an extra 200 votes in any county could swing it Democrat. Regardless of how racist you guilt trip your self into, if you go out with Migos, and they promise you a fun time, it's probably in your interest to go with them and do what you want.
- ben_w 8y ago
  I’m British. All our ID cards are optional. We don’t have “legal names”, just names we happen to be using. If I want to change my name to “Mr Yellow-Rat Foxysquirrel Fairydiddle” for pint of beer, I can. I have no desire to do so, but I can: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/760106/posts http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/760106/posts I have bank cards with and without my middle initial. Cards aren’t long enough for all my full names. My dad’s were even longer.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    I don't think birth certificate is optional in the UK; and children get an NHS number at birth usually. Birth Certificates / entries in the register of births include the mother's name and child's -- though it can be a temporary name ("baby Smith", "Tuesday Jones") IIRC, to be corrected later if desired. Also if you work, or claim benefits you'll have an officially recognised designation that comports with your birth certificate and have a National Insurance Number (NINO). It's not quite as anarchistic as you imply.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      My NI card very explicitly says “not ID”. Also, and this is important, my NI number is a number, not a name. The name on the (yes, mandatory) birth certificate is in law merely a suggestion. The only things I cannot call myself are things which constitute fraud: “Theresa May”, “Doctor Phlogiston”, “HRH The Duke of Wellington”.
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Maybe de jure the name is "merely a suggestion" but de facto it's pretty solid. When you make a claim for child benefit, say, or other action then you have to enter the name as shown on the birth certificate; you can't just vary it at will. This then is established as part of your identity as held in government records. You can make your own deed poll, but you need an enrolled deed poll to change your name on official documents like a passport. https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll
- vidarh 8y ago
  My ex is known by three first names and two last names. Two of those combinations are in use on valid passports, issued before and after we were married respectively, by different countries. Neither of those two combinations are the ones she is known as, and she usually would not use either in a situation where she is not required to use the government recognised version of her name. So, yes, it's dumb as hell to assume you can link two records relating to the same person by name. But it's also dumb as hell to assume the name on any one given id is the only valid official name. It's not even safe to assume it's the only valid official name recognised by a single government - often someone changing their name will for a long time have valid government id documents with different names, for example.
  - vharuck 8y ago
    I use my full name for all government documents, unless it'll be checked against my driver's license. That has my nickname. It's never caused a problem, as most people have the sense to know I'm the same person. The computer's dumb, but people are flexible.
    - speedplane 8y ago
      I think your story proves the point. As long as humans analyze your name and see it in context, no problem. But once a computer sees your name, and potentially mistakes your nickname for your last name, it can't be terribly good.
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  The following clip is fictional, but the exact same thing does happen in data entry IRL, even as you are reading this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIFxgamZ-M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIFxgamZ-M Bam, you now have a government-assigned name. How come you didn't use it before? ( For a very brief period, I was known to the US authorities under a slightly different name than what was on my other ID cards, just because a data entry clerk has decided that my family name is a typo of a similar, Spanish-sounding name, and "corrected" it for me. Fortunately I noticed and had a fix applied before the error propagated; I was well aware that sooner or later someone would use your line, i.e. "that's dumb as hell. You have one name and that's the one on your id card"; that assumption would have been false, and would have me gotten deported on the account of invalid visa. Same thing, global corporation a few years later: "yeah, the surname matches in first five characters, let's link this schmuck's ID card with an old account of somebody who previously worked for us in a completely different country and capacity." A few hours later: "What exactly are you trying to access here, your credentials are for Marketing in Ireland, not IT here!!!" In other words: which ID card? )
- nkrisc 8y ago
  That's just how the government (or issuing authority) knows you. Culturally, one might have other names. Government does not define culture (though try, they might).
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 8y ago
    Case in point - in Lithuania your ID has to use your name translated to Lithuanian. So if Bill Clinton wanted to get a Lithuanian passport, it would state his name as "Bills Klintons". His wife would be called "Hilarija Klintonine". By the way a hilarius percentage of genealogy software assumes that names written differently are different, even though in a ton of language they depend on the sex of the person.
    - nkrisc 8y ago
      > By the way a hilarius percentage of genealogy software assumes that names written differently are different, even though in a ton of language they depend on the sex of the person. I had never even considered that. That doesn't sound like it would be fun to code for. I know some other languages do that as well, and I assume they're not all quite the same, probably?
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 8y ago
        Not at all fun or easy, but having some option for defining equivalence groups of names solves the problem. This also solves the issues of weird spelling (the same name written 200 years ago looks different). A simple solution, covers a ton of use cases.

Sharlin 8y ago

If you want to refer to a user by a "friendly" name, the registration form should have a "I prefer to be addressed as" field instead of ass-uming anything.

speedplane 8y ago
Okay, so now your signup form has "first name", "last name" , plus "preferred name". Seems pretty minor, doesn't it, yet adding that next question drops signups say 4%. Is it really worth asking the question if you're going to scare away 4% of your customers? Or do you try to make due with what you have?

jcelerier 8y ago

> Software often has to determine if "Jon Livingston" is the same as "Jonathan M. Livingston" wat ? what kind of software does that ? that's dumb as hell. You have one name and that's the one on your id card.

matt4077 8y ago
This article might be of interest to you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18567548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18567548
pjc50 8y ago
a) I don't have an ID card b) I rarely use my middle name or initial, except on "official" documents c) People abbreviate their names a lot d) Sometimes it's helpful to match people with the same name at the same address as being the same person .. and sometimes it's adversarial.
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  Ad d: an acquaintance of mine named his son after himself. We don't do suffixes here, so no "II." or "Junior" - they're both Mr. Foo Bar, at Baz Drive, Quuxtown. The age differs, of course, but rarely does anyone collect it, much less use it for disambiguation. As you say, it's a mixed bag - either you get to impersonate the other, or the police gets all confused when looking for a rowdy adolescent and finding a middle-aged man, or you just can't get booked ("we already have you here" "no you don't, that's my son" "that's impossible, there can't be two of you, computer says so!").
- speedplane 8y ago
  "Correcting" names is more than just a data-scientist-cleanup procedure, it's a political one too. Some states now require names on voter registrations to exactly match the names on IDs. I run a law firm analytics company across a few continents, I wishit was easy as saying "stop working with that team", "start working with thos team".. For our handul of big accounts, the want more than just our "service" at this bra, they want our love. So now the little bug that failed to match Michael Sander with Michael Sanders, Esg., leads to under or overcounting in a general election, and we've seen that an extra 200 votes in any county could swing it Democrat. Regardless of how racist you guilt trip your self into, if you go out with Migos, and they promise you a fun time, it's probably in your interest to go with them and do what you want.
ben_w 8y ago
I’m British. All our ID cards are optional. We don’t have “legal names”, just names we happen to be using. If I want to change my name to “Mr Yellow-Rat Foxysquirrel Fairydiddle” for pint of beer, I can. I have no desire to do so, but I can: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/760106/posts http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/760106/posts I have bank cards with and without my middle initial. Cards aren’t long enough for all my full names. My dad’s were even longer.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  I don't think birth certificate is optional in the UK; and children get an NHS number at birth usually. Birth Certificates / entries in the register of births include the mother's name and child's -- though it can be a temporary name ("baby Smith", "Tuesday Jones") IIRC, to be corrected later if desired. Also if you work, or claim benefits you'll have an officially recognised designation that comports with your birth certificate and have a National Insurance Number (NINO). It's not quite as anarchistic as you imply.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    My NI card very explicitly says “not ID”. Also, and this is important, my NI number is a number, not a name. The name on the (yes, mandatory) birth certificate is in law merely a suggestion. The only things I cannot call myself are things which constitute fraud: “Theresa May”, “Doctor Phlogiston”, “HRH The Duke of Wellington”.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Maybe de jure the name is "merely a suggestion" but de facto it's pretty solid. When you make a claim for child benefit, say, or other action then you have to enter the name as shown on the birth certificate; you can't just vary it at will. This then is established as part of your identity as held in government records. You can make your own deed poll, but you need an enrolled deed poll to change your name on official documents like a passport. https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll
vidarh 8y ago
My ex is known by three first names and two last names. Two of those combinations are in use on valid passports, issued before and after we were married respectively, by different countries. Neither of those two combinations are the ones she is known as, and she usually would not use either in a situation where she is not required to use the government recognised version of her name. So, yes, it's dumb as hell to assume you can link two records relating to the same person by name. But it's also dumb as hell to assume the name on any one given id is the only valid official name. It's not even safe to assume it's the only valid official name recognised by a single government - often someone changing their name will for a long time have valid government id documents with different names, for example.
- vharuck 8y ago
  I use my full name for all government documents, unless it'll be checked against my driver's license. That has my nickname. It's never caused a problem, as most people have the sense to know I'm the same person. The computer's dumb, but people are flexible.
  - speedplane 8y ago
    I think your story proves the point. As long as humans analyze your name and see it in context, no problem. But once a computer sees your name, and potentially mistakes your nickname for your last name, it can't be terribly good.
Piskvorrr 8y ago
The following clip is fictional, but the exact same thing does happen in data entry IRL, even as you are reading this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIFxgamZ-M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIFxgamZ-M Bam, you now have a government-assigned name. How come you didn't use it before? ( For a very brief period, I was known to the US authorities under a slightly different name than what was on my other ID cards, just because a data entry clerk has decided that my family name is a typo of a similar, Spanish-sounding name, and "corrected" it for me. Fortunately I noticed and had a fix applied before the error propagated; I was well aware that sooner or later someone would use your line, i.e. "that's dumb as hell. You have one name and that's the one on your id card"; that assumption would have been false, and would have me gotten deported on the account of invalid visa. Same thing, global corporation a few years later: "yeah, the surname matches in first five characters, let's link this schmuck's ID card with an old account of somebody who previously worked for us in a completely different country and capacity." A few hours later: "What exactly are you trying to access here, your credentials are for Marketing in Ireland, not IT here!!!" In other words: which ID card? )
nkrisc 8y ago
That's just how the government (or issuing authority) knows you. Culturally, one might have other names. Government does not define culture (though try, they might).
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 8y ago
  Case in point - in Lithuania your ID has to use your name translated to Lithuanian. So if Bill Clinton wanted to get a Lithuanian passport, it would state his name as "Bills Klintons". His wife would be called "Hilarija Klintonine". By the way a hilarius percentage of genealogy software assumes that names written differently are different, even though in a ton of language they depend on the sex of the person.
  - nkrisc 8y ago
    > By the way a hilarius percentage of genealogy software assumes that names written differently are different, even though in a ton of language they depend on the sex of the person. I had never even considered that. That doesn't sound like it would be fun to code for. I know some other languages do that as well, and I assume they're not all quite the same, probably?
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 8y ago
      Not at all fun or easy, but having some option for defining equivalence groups of names solves the problem. This also solves the issues of weird spelling (the same name written 200 years ago looks different). A simple solution, covers a ton of use cases.