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The weird thing is most people will call you a misogynist for bringing this up. I would argue that in most major US cities there is already a large "harem" dyna

The weird thing is most people will call you a misogynist for bringing this up. I would argue that in most major US cities there is already a large "harem" dynamic. It's mostly invisible to the general population, but quite obvious if you're friends with men in the top 1 to 2% of dating potential.

J-dawg 8y ago
You’re right, and it’s happening throughout the western world. As someone who is definitely not in the top 2%, there are some difficult truths to confront. It will be a strange time when & if it starts happening out in the open.
- 0db532a0 8y ago
  It already is: https://www.instagram.com/danbilzerian/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/danbilzerian/?hl=en.
- alphabetslurry 8y ago
  Is this /r/incels?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
JimboOmega 8y ago
It is misogynist in its worldview; the woman's value is her attractiveness (which declines with age), and a man's attractiveness (which may be a function of money as well as just looks) is all she cares about. Just because it is misogynist does not mean that women don't participate in it. But whenever you reduce human relationships to something "simple", you're likely doing something offensive.
- J-dawg 8y ago
  Just because somebody finds something offensive doesn’t stop it being true.
  - JimboOmega 8y ago
    The implication that all people of a certain group behave and desire a certain thing is obviously false, especially when the group is as large as half the population. Furthermore, even if it is true for a wide swath of the group, that does not mean it should not be criticized and torn apart for the assumptions that it rests on. A lot of people of both genders internalize negative messages about themselves and operate as though they are more fundamental truths. Often, seeing them successfully challenged is what allows a person to grow and live a happier life. The person in the original article believes, at least on some level, that her value as a person is tied to her attractiveness and thus her age. Clearly a lot of others in society believe that too. It's still harmful to her and often them as well and it is a misogynist belief. Simply because a lot of people believe it and operate on that assumption does not mean everyone does, and it does not mean that doing so is beneficial.
    - J-dawg 8y ago
      Your argument seems to be along the same lines as “my grandad smoked 2 packs a day and lived until he was 95”. On average, smoking is harmful. On average, women’s perceived attractiveness is highly tied to their beauty and youthfulness. It’s a shame if the woman in the article believes her value as a person is tied to her attractiveness and age. Given that “value as a person” is an entirely subjective concept, there’s no reason for this to be true. However, her value in the “dating market place” is tied to her attractiveness and age. That’s a fact, it’s objectively measurable and it’s as cold and uncaring as natural selection. It certainly doesn’t care how offensive you find it.
      - JimboOmega 8y ago
        > It’s a shame if the woman in the article believes her value as a person is tied to her attractiveness and age This is exactly my point (and that's why I used that phrase). The letter writer feels that her value in the world is diminished by her age; with her most fertile years squandered she hasn't much else to give it. The response author goes to pains to illustrate that even someone well into her 90s still has value - that she values her interactions with the older woman. The letter writer's is a misogynist worldview. To get there, you have to assume that women aren't really contributing anything to the world beyond reproduction. Men's lives have meaning without a woman and children, perhaps, but women's don't. Separately, I think saying that someone's value as a romantic partner is primarily in their physical attractiveness is obnoxiously reductionist. I went off on quite the drunken rant about that last night in another thread (not my best work, tbh). But basically, I argue optimizing for the most attractive partner I can find for someone at my level of attractiveness and then locking that down (via marriage or similar monogamous institution) is a poor strategy, even if it is the most common one and one implied by genetics. My genes would also love me to sit in bed eating sugar all day, and that won't make me happy. Ultimately: I accept that people approach dating (especially app dating) primarily by looking at attractiveness, aiming for someone in their "league" or a bit higher as evaluated visually. However, I don't think it's the best approach for your overall happiness, nor is it one that everyone employs. I mean, can you imagine dating a teenager? They're at peak fertility. But not only is it illegal depending on the exact age and where you live, it sounds like a nightmare. Like just talking to them gives me a headache. Me? I'm a transwoman and a lesbian so I'm a bit of an evo-psych nightmare. Despite having no real fertility to speak of and a noticeable lack of childbearing hips, I do quite alright. I'm doing much better dating women as a 36yo transwoman than I did as a 31yo cis male. I've been trying to figure out why, and the only explanation I have is that me being more authentic is, in fact, valuable to the people I date.
- thwy12321 8y ago
  "It is misogynist in its worldview" How can something that's an accurate description of reality be misogynist? Unless you are claiming what I said to be false.
MRD85 8y ago
One of my friends at work is like this. He just keeps tripping over and finding women. He's been at work just this year and has been involved with nearly every available woman (and some that aren't), he plays football on the weekends and has the women involved in the club throwing themselves at him, etc. In any one week, he is courting literally 5-8 women despite the fact he does nothing to go out and meet them. It's like every woman in his social circles gravitates towards him. This year he's had 3 women break up with their boyfriends to chase him! It's crazy.

J-dawg 8y ago

You’re right, and it’s happening throughout the western world. As someone who is definitely not in the top 2%, there are some difficult truths to confront. It will be a strange time when & if it starts happening out in the open.

0db532a0 8y ago
It already is: https://www.instagram.com/danbilzerian/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/danbilzerian/?hl=en.
alphabetslurry 8y ago
Is this /r/incels?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

JimboOmega 8y ago

It is misogynist in its worldview; the woman's value is her attractiveness (which declines with age), and a man's attractiveness (which may be a function of money as well as just looks) is all she cares about. Just because it is misogynist does not mean that women don't participate in it. But whenever you reduce human relationships to something "simple", you're likely doing something offensive.

J-dawg 8y ago
Just because somebody finds something offensive doesn’t stop it being true.
- JimboOmega 8y ago
  The implication that all people of a certain group behave and desire a certain thing is obviously false, especially when the group is as large as half the population. Furthermore, even if it is true for a wide swath of the group, that does not mean it should not be criticized and torn apart for the assumptions that it rests on. A lot of people of both genders internalize negative messages about themselves and operate as though they are more fundamental truths. Often, seeing them successfully challenged is what allows a person to grow and live a happier life. The person in the original article believes, at least on some level, that her value as a person is tied to her attractiveness and thus her age. Clearly a lot of others in society believe that too. It's still harmful to her and often them as well and it is a misogynist belief. Simply because a lot of people believe it and operate on that assumption does not mean everyone does, and it does not mean that doing so is beneficial.
  - J-dawg 8y ago
    Your argument seems to be along the same lines as “my grandad smoked 2 packs a day and lived until he was 95”. On average, smoking is harmful. On average, women’s perceived attractiveness is highly tied to their beauty and youthfulness. It’s a shame if the woman in the article believes her value as a person is tied to her attractiveness and age. Given that “value as a person” is an entirely subjective concept, there’s no reason for this to be true. However, her value in the “dating market place” is tied to her attractiveness and age. That’s a fact, it’s objectively measurable and it’s as cold and uncaring as natural selection. It certainly doesn’t care how offensive you find it.
    - JimboOmega 8y ago
      > It’s a shame if the woman in the article believes her value as a person is tied to her attractiveness and age This is exactly my point (and that's why I used that phrase). The letter writer feels that her value in the world is diminished by her age; with her most fertile years squandered she hasn't much else to give it. The response author goes to pains to illustrate that even someone well into her 90s still has value - that she values her interactions with the older woman. The letter writer's is a misogynist worldview. To get there, you have to assume that women aren't really contributing anything to the world beyond reproduction. Men's lives have meaning without a woman and children, perhaps, but women's don't. Separately, I think saying that someone's value as a romantic partner is primarily in their physical attractiveness is obnoxiously reductionist. I went off on quite the drunken rant about that last night in another thread (not my best work, tbh). But basically, I argue optimizing for the most attractive partner I can find for someone at my level of attractiveness and then locking that down (via marriage or similar monogamous institution) is a poor strategy, even if it is the most common one and one implied by genetics. My genes would also love me to sit in bed eating sugar all day, and that won't make me happy. Ultimately: I accept that people approach dating (especially app dating) primarily by looking at attractiveness, aiming for someone in their "league" or a bit higher as evaluated visually. However, I don't think it's the best approach for your overall happiness, nor is it one that everyone employs. I mean, can you imagine dating a teenager? They're at peak fertility. But not only is it illegal depending on the exact age and where you live, it sounds like a nightmare. Like just talking to them gives me a headache. Me? I'm a transwoman and a lesbian so I'm a bit of an evo-psych nightmare. Despite having no real fertility to speak of and a noticeable lack of childbearing hips, I do quite alright. I'm doing much better dating women as a 36yo transwoman than I did as a 31yo cis male. I've been trying to figure out why, and the only explanation I have is that me being more authentic is, in fact, valuable to the people I date.
thwy12321 8y ago
"It is misogynist in its worldview" How can something that's an accurate description of reality be misogynist? Unless you are claiming what I said to be false.

MRD85 8y ago

One of my friends at work is like this. He just keeps tripping over and finding women. He's been at work just this year and has been involved with nearly every available woman (and some that aren't), he plays football on the weekends and has the women involved in the club throwing themselves at him, etc. In any one week, he is courting literally 5-8 women despite the fact he does nothing to go out and meet them. It's like every woman in his social circles gravitates towards him. This year he's had 3 women break up with their boyfriends to chase him! It's crazy.