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Everyone... I mean EVERYONE needs to master the laws of debt collection. Even if we think we are "responsible." Because all of us are a "situation" away from lo

Everyone... I mean EVERYONE needs to master the laws of debt collection. Even if we think we are "responsible." Because all of us are a "situation" away from losing it all. Here in the USA, there is a "statute of limitations on debt". If we fall onto bad times, the laws protect us from aggressive debt collectors. We simply stop paying all debts... and the law cleans our slate fresh after x amount of years (depending on each state). No bankruptcy needed.

olivermarks 8y ago
Unfortunately US 'aggressive debt collectors' can leverage legal loop holes and corrupt officials to take your possessions by force. The 2008 housing repossession stats from lenders such as wells fargo are a good example. in some cases they were repoing houses that had no late payment or mortgage issues whatsoever.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  They are aggressive only when they smell blood. Ignore them and you can settle for 20%. They probably bought the debt for 5% so they are still ahead. "Ignore them" is also easier said than done since they will ruing your credit report and maybe sue you.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    There are different types of debt. I don't know for a fact if it is still true, but medical debt on your credit score wasn't even considered for a mortgage for the most part. If you had 20 past due copays that was worse than owing 20k
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      > If you had 20 past due copays that was worse than owing 20k Copays are typically (though not always) paid at time of service, not billed after-the-fact. In any case, it takes a long time for a bill to become overdue and get sent to collections; before that, it won't show up on your report at all. Having 20 different overdue bills (of any sort) in collections is definitely an objectively worse sign of creditworthiness than having a single active loan of 20k of any nature.
  - mrstatute 8y ago
    Exactly. Some blogs and other websites are offering bad advice. Performing overt actions such as: checking one's credit, sending debt validation letters, paying small amounts, maintaining other debt at the expense of another, seeking jobs which check credit, and others can empower debt collectors to pursue that individual vigorously. On the other hand, a completely destroyed credit report (100% charge offs) with no known mortgage or vehicle with a hard-to-find debtor is unlikely to be pursued since they are more likely to be collection/judgment proof. What many people do not realize is that most charged-off debt is uncollectible. Only a small fraction actually gets paid. Most debtors cannot be located by their collectors, and that's the primary reason why debt collectors will normally settle for less than what is owed.
    - learc83 8y ago
      >checking one's credit, Checking your own credit doesn't show up on the credit report collectors pull, so they would have no idea you did this. It also costs them money each time they pull a credit report, so they're unlikely to do it very often (or at all) by the time the debt is old enough that it's unlikely collectible.
      - mrstatute 8y ago
        Actually, the latest credit product systems from Experian and TransUnion (not sure about Equifax) allow creditors to see inquiry data as a list of dates. This array may include pre-approved offer checks and third-party pulls (such as those from Credit Karma). I believe you can even see this date list on Credit Karma as well. In the same way that a debt validation letter is a "smell" to the debt collector that the debtor is concerned about their debt (and potential credit status), any indicator that the debtor is evaluating their own credit can also potentially raise the debtor's file with the collector to high-attention (or litigation) status (versus being sold off to another collector).
        chimeracoder 8y ago
        > Actually, the latest credit product systems from Experian and TransUnion (not sure about Equifax) allow creditors to see inquiry data as a list of dates. This array may include pre-approved offer checks and third-party pulls (such as those from Credit Karma). I believe you can even see this date list on Credit Karma as well. This is not the same thing as checking your own credit, which is not visible on reports that creditors see.
Scoundreller 8y ago
Master the laws in all 50 states? And perhaps a few territories too? I think the safest thing in this case is to only bank with an organization that has no presence outside your home state, like that credit union with 6 branches that my friends make fun of me for using.
mrstatute 8y ago
It's much more complicated than that. The law doesn't wipe the slate clean. Rather, it gives the debtor an affirmative defense against a lawsuit after X years. It does not stop a debt collector from trying to collect on otherwise uncollectible debt (phone calls, letters, calls to friends, family, and employers if the debtor doesn't respond). Additionally, debts barred by the statute of limitations can sometimes still crop up as "zombie debt" years or decades later. Collectors can (and will) put a new records on a person's credit report, preventing most debtors from rebuilding their credit. When a debtor stops paying debts entirely, it can start a whirlwind of problems. They can be barred from finding housing, certain types of employment, their actual current jobs (certain professional licensing require financial responsibility). Additionally, most debts end up in the hands of collection attorneys (CA) who will sue en masse to obtain judgments. This effectively stops the statute of limitations and gives the CA 10 years, 20 years, or a lifetime to collect the debt. In these cases, a well-timed bankruptcy is (and should be) an option for people. In some cases of debt -- student loans for example -- the debt is presumed non-dischargeable and can create a lifetime of hardship for the debtor.
- danesparza 8y ago
  Also: Tacking on fees allows a debt collector to effectively 're-up' the debt, which resets the clock on the statute of limitations.
  - mrstatute 8y ago
    That tactic has been shot down by the courts, but there are some big loopholes to it. Any acknowledgement of the debt (normally in writing) or any token payment by the debtor can reset the clock. Sometimes, debt collectors employ shady practices to get the statute reset, such as telling the debtor, "If you pay us $10, we'll stop calling you for three months." This token payment will reset the clock.
  - wahern 8y ago
    Once upon a time (40+ years ago?) accepting partial payment for a debt using an instrument that declared something to the effect of, "for the satisfaction of all debt", was enforceable. This became a problem when automated payment processing systems became prevalent. Savvy debtors--presumably mostly lawyers--could write a check for $10 that extinguished a $10,000 medical bill once cashed. Needless to say, the law was quickly changed before it became too prevalent--much more quickly than laws designed to protect consumers. Unlike the loophole regarding debt acknowledgment you mention, this loophole was an artifact of mercantile law. Terms on negotiable instruments are typically strictly enforced as compared to regular contracts, to ensure maximum efficiency of payment systems. (Or at least the rules for what's enforceable are very brightline, and aren't particularly concerned with fairness. Magical phrases are still very much important.)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

olivermarks 8y ago

Unfortunately US 'aggressive debt collectors' can leverage legal loop holes and corrupt officials to take your possessions by force. The 2008 housing repossession stats from lenders such as wells fargo are a good example. in some cases they were repoing houses that had no late payment or mortgage issues whatsoever.

onetimemanytime 8y ago
They are aggressive only when they smell blood. Ignore them and you can settle for 20%. They probably bought the debt for 5% so they are still ahead. "Ignore them" is also easier said than done since they will ruing your credit report and maybe sue you.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  There are different types of debt. I don't know for a fact if it is still true, but medical debt on your credit score wasn't even considered for a mortgage for the most part. If you had 20 past due copays that was worse than owing 20k
  - chimeracoder 8y ago
    > If you had 20 past due copays that was worse than owing 20k Copays are typically (though not always) paid at time of service, not billed after-the-fact. In any case, it takes a long time for a bill to become overdue and get sent to collections; before that, it won't show up on your report at all. Having 20 different overdue bills (of any sort) in collections is definitely an objectively worse sign of creditworthiness than having a single active loan of 20k of any nature.
- mrstatute 8y ago
  Exactly. Some blogs and other websites are offering bad advice. Performing overt actions such as: checking one's credit, sending debt validation letters, paying small amounts, maintaining other debt at the expense of another, seeking jobs which check credit, and others can empower debt collectors to pursue that individual vigorously. On the other hand, a completely destroyed credit report (100% charge offs) with no known mortgage or vehicle with a hard-to-find debtor is unlikely to be pursued since they are more likely to be collection/judgment proof. What many people do not realize is that most charged-off debt is uncollectible. Only a small fraction actually gets paid. Most debtors cannot be located by their collectors, and that's the primary reason why debt collectors will normally settle for less than what is owed.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >checking one's credit, Checking your own credit doesn't show up on the credit report collectors pull, so they would have no idea you did this. It also costs them money each time they pull a credit report, so they're unlikely to do it very often (or at all) by the time the debt is old enough that it's unlikely collectible.
    - mrstatute 8y ago
      Actually, the latest credit product systems from Experian and TransUnion (not sure about Equifax) allow creditors to see inquiry data as a list of dates. This array may include pre-approved offer checks and third-party pulls (such as those from Credit Karma). I believe you can even see this date list on Credit Karma as well. In the same way that a debt validation letter is a "smell" to the debt collector that the debtor is concerned about their debt (and potential credit status), any indicator that the debtor is evaluating their own credit can also potentially raise the debtor's file with the collector to high-attention (or litigation) status (versus being sold off to another collector).
      - chimeracoder 8y ago
        > Actually, the latest credit product systems from Experian and TransUnion (not sure about Equifax) allow creditors to see inquiry data as a list of dates. This array may include pre-approved offer checks and third-party pulls (such as those from Credit Karma). I believe you can even see this date list on Credit Karma as well. This is not the same thing as checking your own credit, which is not visible on reports that creditors see.

Scoundreller 8y ago

Master the laws in all 50 states? And perhaps a few territories too? I think the safest thing in this case is to only bank with an organization that has no presence outside your home state, like that credit union with 6 branches that my friends make fun of me for using.

mrstatute 8y ago

It's much more complicated than that. The law doesn't wipe the slate clean. Rather, it gives the debtor an affirmative defense against a lawsuit after X years. It does not stop a debt collector from trying to collect on otherwise uncollectible debt (phone calls, letters, calls to friends, family, and employers if the debtor doesn't respond). Additionally, debts barred by the statute of limitations can sometimes still crop up as "zombie debt" years or decades later. Collectors can (and will) put a new records on a person's credit report, preventing most debtors from rebuilding their credit. When a debtor stops paying debts entirely, it can start a whirlwind of problems. They can be barred from finding housing, certain types of employment, their actual current jobs (certain professional licensing require financial responsibility). Additionally, most debts end up in the hands of collection attorneys (CA) who will sue en masse to obtain judgments. This effectively stops the statute of limitations and gives the CA 10 years, 20 years, or a lifetime to collect the debt. In these cases, a well-timed bankruptcy is (and should be) an option for people. In some cases of debt -- student loans for example -- the debt is presumed non-dischargeable and can create a lifetime of hardship for the debtor.

danesparza 8y ago
Also: Tacking on fees allows a debt collector to effectively 're-up' the debt, which resets the clock on the statute of limitations.
- mrstatute 8y ago
  That tactic has been shot down by the courts, but there are some big loopholes to it. Any acknowledgement of the debt (normally in writing) or any token payment by the debtor can reset the clock. Sometimes, debt collectors employ shady practices to get the statute reset, such as telling the debtor, "If you pay us $10, we'll stop calling you for three months." This token payment will reset the clock.
- wahern 8y ago
  Once upon a time (40+ years ago?) accepting partial payment for a debt using an instrument that declared something to the effect of, "for the satisfaction of all debt", was enforceable. This became a problem when automated payment processing systems became prevalent. Savvy debtors--presumably mostly lawyers--could write a check for $10 that extinguished a $10,000 medical bill once cashed. Needless to say, the law was quickly changed before it became too prevalent--much more quickly than laws designed to protect consumers. Unlike the loophole regarding debt acknowledgment you mention, this loophole was an artifact of mercantile law. Terms on negotiable instruments are typically strictly enforced as compared to regular contracts, to ensure maximum efficiency of payment systems. (Or at least the rules for what's enforceable are very brightline, and aren't particularly concerned with fairness. Magical phrases are still very much important.)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]