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I recommended Python with a math library to my friend to try as a replacement for R (and for server code running a project's backend data processing). The amoun

I recommended Python with a math library to my friend to try as a replacement for R (and for server code running a project's backend data processing). The amount of effort and time spent trying to get it up and running was ridiculous. R's syntax is very unpleasant for both of us, but it really gets the job done. Php isn't nearly as bad as R, and I've seen this kind of criticism of php for years. What is the perfect language I should use then? Can't a list of "bad things" be made of any language? (maybe not the same problems, but there's always something)

deleted 8y ago
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disgruntledphd2 8y ago
Well to be fair, R has always had a good installation story (and CRAN is super-stable), while Python is notorious for issues with packaging (easy_install, pip etc).
- Vanderson 8y ago
  It sure does. Which is odd that this alone is a reason I'd use a poorly structured/designed language than a well laid out one. Maybe a similar reason why php also is used over other options? (from a slightly different angle)
  - seba_dos1 8y ago
    Absolutely. Even the highest ranked comment here now says so.
code_duck 8y ago
It’s true that deployment is more difficult on Python. Comparing R to PHP seems kind of inappropriate since what they are appropriate for rarely overlaps. I wouldn’t use PHP for statistics and I sure wouldn’t use R for a website. As far as whether other languages could have similar criticism, no. This is an analysis of sloppy design at the core of PHP. The types of problems listed aren’t found in Python or Ruby because they planned the language better in the first place and have a better process for dealing with intelligent changes. It’s maddening for me to read what PHP developers think about changes to the language. If you want to use PHP, go ahead, but I don’t think that’s the point of this article.
- Vanderson 8y ago
  >This is an analysis of sloppy design at the core of PHP. I understand this, but the source or reason for the "bad list" doesn't change the fact that every language has something off. (just a matter of degrees) Also, php did something so right that even despite all the ugliness and problems it's used a lot. I think php should suck it up and make a branch to fix all of these things and let people slowly change their apps over. I have gone through a lot of rework over the years, what's one more change for better future?
  - code_duck 8y ago
    Sure, it’s a matter of degree. PHP has many worse degrees than the things ‘wrong’ with Python or Ruby. Nobody said a language has to be perfect, just better. Of course other languages have flaws, but Python and Ruby have fewer and less serious flaws. It’s like if I said hey, we should live somewhere besides Moldova. And you said but don’t Germany and France have flaws too? As far as what they should do, yes, they should fix all of these problems. The thing is many would break huge amounts of old code and cause problems for people and harm upgrade adoption. Also, PHP developers, as seen, actually insist on things like ‘=> is better than : because it’s the PHP Way’. I’m not going to waste time trying to persuade the heathens behind PHP to turn it into a normal language. Why would I? My opinion is that PHP is a fundamentally braindead language. It’s like someone tried to make a quick and dirty scripting language with C syntax and then changed it over into a crappy version of Java with the help of a bunch of incompetent college students over 10 years for an audience of amateur programmers, which actually is exactly what happened. I have no desire to use it for anything, ever.
    - Vanderson 8y ago
      Your argument reminds me of a debate I ran into about using pocket hole jigs. The experts would make hand carved mortis and tenon joints and consistently attacked and ridiculed pocket hole jigs. And said no professional would ever use pocket hole jigs. Ikea does a lot of business and I wish they'd use pocket holes on their furniture instead of some of the ghastly connectors that fall apart. Getting things done and running a business are primary goals of software... There was a time when mysql was ridiculed mercilessly as well.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

disgruntledphd2 8y ago

Well to be fair, R has always had a good installation story (and CRAN is super-stable), while Python is notorious for issues with packaging (easy_install, pip etc).

Vanderson 8y ago
It sure does. Which is odd that this alone is a reason I'd use a poorly structured/designed language than a well laid out one. Maybe a similar reason why php also is used over other options? (from a slightly different angle)
- seba_dos1 8y ago
  Absolutely. Even the highest ranked comment here now says so.

code_duck 8y ago

It’s true that deployment is more difficult on Python. Comparing R to PHP seems kind of inappropriate since what they are appropriate for rarely overlaps. I wouldn’t use PHP for statistics and I sure wouldn’t use R for a website. As far as whether other languages could have similar criticism, no. This is an analysis of sloppy design at the core of PHP. The types of problems listed aren’t found in Python or Ruby because they planned the language better in the first place and have a better process for dealing with intelligent changes. It’s maddening for me to read what PHP developers think about changes to the language. If you want to use PHP, go ahead, but I don’t think that’s the point of this article.

Vanderson 8y ago
>This is an analysis of sloppy design at the core of PHP. I understand this, but the source or reason for the "bad list" doesn't change the fact that every language has something off. (just a matter of degrees) Also, php did something so right that even despite all the ugliness and problems it's used a lot. I think php should suck it up and make a branch to fix all of these things and let people slowly change their apps over. I have gone through a lot of rework over the years, what's one more change for better future?
- code_duck 8y ago
  Sure, it’s a matter of degree. PHP has many worse degrees than the things ‘wrong’ with Python or Ruby. Nobody said a language has to be perfect, just better. Of course other languages have flaws, but Python and Ruby have fewer and less serious flaws. It’s like if I said hey, we should live somewhere besides Moldova. And you said but don’t Germany and France have flaws too? As far as what they should do, yes, they should fix all of these problems. The thing is many would break huge amounts of old code and cause problems for people and harm upgrade adoption. Also, PHP developers, as seen, actually insist on things like ‘=> is better than : because it’s the PHP Way’. I’m not going to waste time trying to persuade the heathens behind PHP to turn it into a normal language. Why would I? My opinion is that PHP is a fundamentally braindead language. It’s like someone tried to make a quick and dirty scripting language with C syntax and then changed it over into a crappy version of Java with the help of a bunch of incompetent college students over 10 years for an audience of amateur programmers, which actually is exactly what happened. I have no desire to use it for anything, ever.
  - Vanderson 8y ago
    Your argument reminds me of a debate I ran into about using pocket hole jigs. The experts would make hand carved mortis and tenon joints and consistently attacked and ridiculed pocket hole jigs. And said no professional would ever use pocket hole jigs. Ikea does a lot of business and I wish they'd use pocket holes on their furniture instead of some of the ghastly connectors that fall apart. Getting things done and running a business are primary goals of software... There was a time when mysql was ridiculed mercilessly as well.