8 ms·

Deutsche searched in money laundering probe over Panama Papers

129 points by sahin-boydas 8y ago

tormeh 8y ago
Isn't this a bit late? Surely everything incriminating has been burned by now? And also, how much is even stored locally on paper these days? I wonder how much sense these kinds of razzias still make.
- seanhunter 8y ago
  Absolutely scary amounts of the information associated with private wealth management is still paper-based. Secondly, banks have huge internal complexity of systems and limited ability to coordinate people. Whether or not DB were doing this, it's highly likely there is a lot of evidence.
  - elliekelly 8y ago
    >Absolutely scary amounts of the information associated with private wealth management is still paper-based. Can confirm. I was an AML Officer for a pretty substantial bank that focused on private wealth management. The lack of technology would truly horrify most HN readers. For example, the height of our technology was our "intranet" - a shared excel file with hyperlinks to other files on the shared drive.
    - onetimemanytime 8y ago
      A feature, not a bug: If you want to cheat the state, technology is your worst enemy. Paper trail too
      - elliekelly 8y ago
        You know that's very true. If you can't present a file because it's "lost" (which happened not infrequently) the regulators don't know whether you've done your due diligence or not and you get a slap on the wrist for deficient paperwork. On the other hand, if your files demonstrate inadequate due diligence you're in for quite a bit of trouble.
- lucozade 8y ago
  > Isn't this a bit late? If the culprits knew that there was information about their activities in the papers and stopped at that time then yes, it's a bit late. Nothing in the article say that though. > how much is even stored locally on paper these days? Depends, the article also says the police took electronic data. My guess is that there's likely to be a reasonable amount of both worth searching.
- chopin 8y ago
  Paper would be the easy part (to destroy). The hard part is electronic data. I work in a large Enterprise, no chance that even a simple email would vanish completely (it's definitely on several backup servers, tapes and whatnot I have no access to).
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    Add to this that financial institutions have very stringent regulatory requirements about archiving all their communications, including chat and email. Trying to game those archives would get them into so much hot water with just about any regulator that I can't really imagine it. Any bank may have dodgy employees that try to game the system. But without institutional support by a multitude of people and departments you could never erase such data. And I just don't see that happening.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Trying to destroy electronic records in a bank is so much a red flag that it would expose the person attempting it immediately. And then you'd find another copy somewhere. The key to a successful fraud is usually producing more records in order to make something seem legit.
- johannes1234321 8y ago
  Such a search usually works by "please provide us with all relevant documents and copies of data" and only to a small degree by officers opening cabinets and taking whatever they find. If the confiscated documents show that large parts are missing or manipulated the charges for not complying with rules on record keeping and the negative impression on the main case are typically worse for the organization than the harm by those bad documents. For individuals who might be responsible the interests might be different - they won't like documents referring to them specifically. And also mind: The authorities are also required to evaluate documents in benefit of the defendant, thus to some degree there is self-interest to share stuff for that reason.
- matt4077 8y ago
  Matt Levine has a fun take on this: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-29/watch-out-for-fake-newsletters https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-29/watch-... (Search “raid”)
majewsky 8y ago
This is about Deutsche Bank. As a German, this headline reads like "Germans searched...", so I was confused for a moment.
- kenny_r 8y ago
  I'm not German but this headline irked me. They could have just used the full name of the bank. They use "Deutsche" and "Danske" as a shorthand throughout the article itself, too.
  - heinrichhartman 8y ago
    > They use "Deutsche" [...] as a shorthand throughout the article itself, too. No. They do not. At least the version I am reading.
  - harperlee 8y ago
    It is as if the author did not know this is shorthand and not the complete name of the bank. Kind of taking bank out of “Bank of America” vs “The CapitalOne bank (...)”
- chopin 8y ago
  I (as a German) was not. Reading "Deutsche", "Money Laundering" and "Searched" in one line made obviously clear what was meant. In my bubble, this institution is a synonym for organized crime.
  - wavefunction 8y ago
    Deutschebank has a sordid and questionable history with Donald Trump among others, so the sentiment is shared outside your bubble as well.
  - Tade0 8y ago
    As a Polish person both your and GP's user names caught me off guard somewhat.
watertom 8y ago
Isn't Deutsche Bank the only bank that will still do business with Trump?
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  Correct. https://www.ft.com/content/8c6d9dca-882c-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787 https://www.ft.com/content/8c6d9dca-882c-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45...
- josefresco 8y ago
  Not sure if they're the only bank that will lend but he certainly owes them a bundle of money: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-28/mnuchin-suggests-his-twitter-was-compromised-deletes-retweet https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-28/mnuchin-s... "According to an analysis by Bloomberg, Trump now owes Deutsche around $300m. He has four large mortgages, all issued by Deutsche’s private bank. The loans are guaranteed against the president’s properties: a new deluxe hotel in Washington DC’s old Post Office building, just round the corner from the White House; his Chicago tower hotel; and the Trump National Doral Miami resort." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/16/deutsche-bank-examined-trump-account-for-russia-links https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/16/deutsche-ban... And this: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/31/deutsche-bank-fined-630m-over-russia-money-laundering-claims https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/31/deutsche-ba... And this: https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-donald-trump-needs-a-loan-he-chooses-deutsche-bank-1458379806 https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-donald-trump-needs-a-loan-... And well, you know where this all goes...
  - swarnie_ 8y ago
    > And well, you know where this all goes... Go on, spill the beans for HN's international visitors?
  - bigpicture 8y ago
    > his Chicago tower hotel; Coincidence? The lawyer that handles tax matters for this property had his office raided by the FBI today: https://cltv.com/2018/11/29/federal-agents-raid-office-of-powerful-chicago-ald-ed-burke/ https://cltv.com/2018/11/29/federal-agents-raid-office-of-po...
gammateam 8y ago
PROTIP: If you are having trouble opening a bank account for your blockchain company, use these headlines to find banks that just dgaf
throwawaymanbot 8y ago
This bank also loaned Trump money ... I wonder is it a part of that bigger investigation.
throwawaymanbot 8y ago
Trump money laundering....

129 points by sahin-boydas 8y ago

Isn't this a bit late? Surely everything incriminating has been burned by now? And also, how much is even stored locally on paper these days? I wonder how much sense these kinds of razzias still make.

seanhunter 8y ago
Absolutely scary amounts of the information associated with private wealth management is still paper-based. Secondly, banks have huge internal complexity of systems and limited ability to coordinate people. Whether or not DB were doing this, it's highly likely there is a lot of evidence.
- elliekelly 8y ago
  >Absolutely scary amounts of the information associated with private wealth management is still paper-based. Can confirm. I was an AML Officer for a pretty substantial bank that focused on private wealth management. The lack of technology would truly horrify most HN readers. For example, the height of our technology was our "intranet" - a shared excel file with hyperlinks to other files on the shared drive.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    A feature, not a bug: If you want to cheat the state, technology is your worst enemy. Paper trail too
    - elliekelly 8y ago
      You know that's very true. If you can't present a file because it's "lost" (which happened not infrequently) the regulators don't know whether you've done your due diligence or not and you get a slap on the wrist for deficient paperwork. On the other hand, if your files demonstrate inadequate due diligence you're in for quite a bit of trouble.
lucozade 8y ago
> Isn't this a bit late? If the culprits knew that there was information about their activities in the papers and stopped at that time then yes, it's a bit late. Nothing in the article say that though. > how much is even stored locally on paper these days? Depends, the article also says the police took electronic data. My guess is that there's likely to be a reasonable amount of both worth searching.
chopin 8y ago
Paper would be the easy part (to destroy). The hard part is electronic data. I work in a large Enterprise, no chance that even a simple email would vanish completely (it's definitely on several backup servers, tapes and whatnot I have no access to).
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Add to this that financial institutions have very stringent regulatory requirements about archiving all their communications, including chat and email. Trying to game those archives would get them into so much hot water with just about any regulator that I can't really imagine it. Any bank may have dodgy employees that try to game the system. But without institutional support by a multitude of people and departments you could never erase such data. And I just don't see that happening.
pjc50 8y ago
Trying to destroy electronic records in a bank is so much a red flag that it would expose the person attempting it immediately. And then you'd find another copy somewhere. The key to a successful fraud is usually producing more records in order to make something seem legit.
johannes1234321 8y ago
Such a search usually works by "please provide us with all relevant documents and copies of data" and only to a small degree by officers opening cabinets and taking whatever they find. If the confiscated documents show that large parts are missing or manipulated the charges for not complying with rules on record keeping and the negative impression on the main case are typically worse for the organization than the harm by those bad documents. For individuals who might be responsible the interests might be different - they won't like documents referring to them specifically. And also mind: The authorities are also required to evaluate documents in benefit of the defendant, thus to some degree there is self-interest to share stuff for that reason.
matt4077 8y ago
Matt Levine has a fun take on this: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-29/watch-out-for-fake-newsletters https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-29/watch-... (Search “raid”)

majewsky 8y ago

This is about Deutsche Bank. As a German, this headline reads like "Germans searched...", so I was confused for a moment.

kenny_r 8y ago
I'm not German but this headline irked me. They could have just used the full name of the bank. They use "Deutsche" and "Danske" as a shorthand throughout the article itself, too.
- heinrichhartman 8y ago
  > They use "Deutsche" [...] as a shorthand throughout the article itself, too. No. They do not. At least the version I am reading.
- harperlee 8y ago
  It is as if the author did not know this is shorthand and not the complete name of the bank. Kind of taking bank out of “Bank of America” vs “The CapitalOne bank (...)”
chopin 8y ago
I (as a German) was not. Reading "Deutsche", "Money Laundering" and "Searched" in one line made obviously clear what was meant. In my bubble, this institution is a synonym for organized crime.
- wavefunction 8y ago
  Deutschebank has a sordid and questionable history with Donald Trump among others, so the sentiment is shared outside your bubble as well.
- Tade0 8y ago
  As a Polish person both your and GP's user names caught me off guard somewhat.

watertom 8y ago

Isn't Deutsche Bank the only bank that will still do business with Trump?

akhilcacharya 8y ago
Correct. https://www.ft.com/content/8c6d9dca-882c-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787 https://www.ft.com/content/8c6d9dca-882c-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45...
josefresco 8y ago
Not sure if they're the only bank that will lend but he certainly owes them a bundle of money: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-28/mnuchin-suggests-his-twitter-was-compromised-deletes-retweet https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-28/mnuchin-s... "According to an analysis by Bloomberg, Trump now owes Deutsche around $300m. He has four large mortgages, all issued by Deutsche’s private bank. The loans are guaranteed against the president’s properties: a new deluxe hotel in Washington DC’s old Post Office building, just round the corner from the White House; his Chicago tower hotel; and the Trump National Doral Miami resort." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/16/deutsche-bank-examined-trump-account-for-russia-links https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/16/deutsche-ban... And this: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/31/deutsche-bank-fined-630m-over-russia-money-laundering-claims https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/31/deutsche-ba... And this: https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-donald-trump-needs-a-loan-he-chooses-deutsche-bank-1458379806 https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-donald-trump-needs-a-loan-... And well, you know where this all goes...
- swarnie_ 8y ago
  > And well, you know where this all goes... Go on, spill the beans for HN's international visitors?
- bigpicture 8y ago
  > his Chicago tower hotel; Coincidence? The lawyer that handles tax matters for this property had his office raided by the FBI today: https://cltv.com/2018/11/29/federal-agents-raid-office-of-powerful-chicago-ald-ed-burke/ https://cltv.com/2018/11/29/federal-agents-raid-office-of-po...

gammateam 8y ago

PROTIP: If you are having trouble opening a bank account for your blockchain company, use these headlines to find banks that just dgaf

throwawaymanbot 8y ago

This bank also loaned Trump money ... I wonder is it a part of that bigger investigation.

throwawaymanbot 8y ago

Trump money laundering....