5 ms·

how is that extortion? Extortion needs a threat for non-compliance. Offering to sell a company information with no consequences for rejection is an invitation t

how is that extortion? Extortion needs a threat for non-compliance. Offering to sell a company information with no consequences for rejection is an invitation to trade.

brianwawok 8y ago
So they respond by reporting you to the CIA/FBI They show up and take all your electronics to investigate an extortion claim How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? You might win in the end. You might get jail time. You might have a pretty rough 6 months and get nothing. Being internet tough and going to court tend to be very different things.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  what bizarre reading of my comment are you responding to? I'm saying that offering to sell someone something is objectively not extortion. That doesn't say anything about whether the justice system will interpret it as such, or whether it would be a good idea to try to sell the source to eBay.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    "objectively not extortion" doesn't matter, and is completely irrelevant to the conversation being had here. The point is that if you tried doing this thing that is or isn't "objectively extortion", you're going to risk dealing with what the comment outlined above, and that is the real penalty for trying something like this. The larger point, and the nugget you probably should come away with, is that there's a prohibitively high cost for doing what's being discussed. There most definitely is plenty to worry about here.
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      yeah, obviously you shouldn't try to do what's being discussed. That goes without saying. Did you read the comment I was responding to? I feel like I'm talking to myself here.
- jstanley 8y ago
  If that is what happens, people will start doing it anonymously and asking for Bitcoins.
  - alexmorenodev 8y ago
    I see what you did there.
sigi45 8y ago
It is. There is no legal right for you to 'steal' something. It does matter how easy you make it, but it is nonetheless illegal. Because someone kept the door open, doesn't allow you or give you the right to go into it. Never has been never will be.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  I didn't claim that taking the source code isn't stealing.
- ashelmire 8y ago
  How is it stealing if it’s publicly hosted on a web server?
  - beberlei 8y ago
    By that definition it is not stealing to take something that is unguarded, isn't locked or surrounded by a fence from a neighbors lawn, or a department store.
    - ashelmire 8y ago
      No, it's not. It's more like if Coca-cola accidentally published their recipe in the newspaper instead of an ad - that's their blunder and not corporate espionage.
      - randyrand 8y ago
        That's one of the best analogies I've heard. Thanks for that.
      - sigi45 8y ago
        No its not. First of, there is also in legal a huge difference between publishing your secret in an ad and putting some .git folder in /. Second it would probably still be illegal to reproduce coca-cola original receipe. There is probably some (c) or similiar thing protecting it.
wil421 8y ago
It’s really funny you guys have to ask this question. If I steal a companies IP and then try to basically sell it back to them is it a crime? Of course it is in most sane countries.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  the theft itself is obviously a crime. But that wasn't the question. The question was: "is selling the source back to the company extortion?" The answer is no.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    I didn't think we were contemplating selling the source back, rather selling details of how a malicious person could easily acquire the source - as one may have done as a slightly-off-white hat hacker. It's not theft either; and we could have immediately destroyed all our data except some excerpt as proof the hack is available so we would not be handling any infringing data (despite the initial act potentially being infringing, depending on jurisdiction). This is akin to "I went past your property and saw the door open, stepped inside and took a picture as proof; do you want to see the picture?".
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      Yes you're right, my description of the scenario wasn't quite accurate. Personally I don't think this scenario is unethical (beyond your responsibility to disclose potentially being to the company's users, not the company itself, meaning withholding the vulnerability might be ethically dubious) but as I understand (IANAL) it is illegal. But the law doesn't always map well onto ethics.
      - acct1771 8y ago
        Rarely, the more you study implementation and edge cases.
ckinsey 8y ago
Tell you what, call up a local law enforcement officer and ask for $10,000. When they say no, tell them you know where they live. See if that is considered a threat by the courts.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  Well yeah obviously that's going to be considered a threat. But is that what we're talking about here? No. That would be the equivalent of contacting eBay and asking for money, then implying you "wouldn't want the source to fall into the wrong hands".

how is that extortion? Extortion needs a threat for non-compliance. Offering to sell a company information with no consequences for rejection is an invitation to trade.

brianwawok 8y ago

So they respond by reporting you to the CIA/FBI They show up and take all your electronics to investigate an extortion claim How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? You might win in the end. You might get jail time. You might have a pretty rough 6 months and get nothing. Being internet tough and going to court tend to be very different things.

beaconstudios 8y ago
what bizarre reading of my comment are you responding to? I'm saying that offering to sell someone something is objectively not extortion. That doesn't say anything about whether the justice system will interpret it as such, or whether it would be a good idea to try to sell the source to eBay.
- diminoten 8y ago
  "objectively not extortion" doesn't matter, and is completely irrelevant to the conversation being had here. The point is that if you tried doing this thing that is or isn't "objectively extortion", you're going to risk dealing with what the comment outlined above, and that is the real penalty for trying something like this. The larger point, and the nugget you probably should come away with, is that there's a prohibitively high cost for doing what's being discussed. There most definitely is plenty to worry about here.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    yeah, obviously you shouldn't try to do what's being discussed. That goes without saying. Did you read the comment I was responding to? I feel like I'm talking to myself here.
jstanley 8y ago
If that is what happens, people will start doing it anonymously and asking for Bitcoins.
- alexmorenodev 8y ago
  I see what you did there.

sigi45 8y ago

It is. There is no legal right for you to 'steal' something. It does matter how easy you make it, but it is nonetheless illegal. Because someone kept the door open, doesn't allow you or give you the right to go into it. Never has been never will be.

beaconstudios 8y ago
I didn't claim that taking the source code isn't stealing.
ashelmire 8y ago
How is it stealing if it’s publicly hosted on a web server?
- beberlei 8y ago
  By that definition it is not stealing to take something that is unguarded, isn't locked or surrounded by a fence from a neighbors lawn, or a department store.
  - ashelmire 8y ago
    No, it's not. It's more like if Coca-cola accidentally published their recipe in the newspaper instead of an ad - that's their blunder and not corporate espionage.
    - randyrand 8y ago
      That's one of the best analogies I've heard. Thanks for that.
    - sigi45 8y ago
      No its not. First of, there is also in legal a huge difference between publishing your secret in an ad and putting some .git folder in /. Second it would probably still be illegal to reproduce coca-cola original receipe. There is probably some (c) or similiar thing protecting it.

wil421 8y ago

It’s really funny you guys have to ask this question. If I steal a companies IP and then try to basically sell it back to them is it a crime? Of course it is in most sane countries.

beaconstudios 8y ago
the theft itself is obviously a crime. But that wasn't the question. The question was: "is selling the source back to the company extortion?" The answer is no.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  I didn't think we were contemplating selling the source back, rather selling details of how a malicious person could easily acquire the source - as one may have done as a slightly-off-white hat hacker. It's not theft either; and we could have immediately destroyed all our data except some excerpt as proof the hack is available so we would not be handling any infringing data (despite the initial act potentially being infringing, depending on jurisdiction). This is akin to "I went past your property and saw the door open, stepped inside and took a picture as proof; do you want to see the picture?".
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    Yes you're right, my description of the scenario wasn't quite accurate. Personally I don't think this scenario is unethical (beyond your responsibility to disclose potentially being to the company's users, not the company itself, meaning withholding the vulnerability might be ethically dubious) but as I understand (IANAL) it is illegal. But the law doesn't always map well onto ethics.
    - acct1771 8y ago
      Rarely, the more you study implementation and edge cases.

ckinsey 8y ago

Tell you what, call up a local law enforcement officer and ask for $10,000. When they say no, tell them you know where they live. See if that is considered a threat by the courts.

beaconstudios 8y ago
Well yeah obviously that's going to be considered a threat. But is that what we're talking about here? No. That would be the equivalent of contacting eBay and asking for money, then implying you "wouldn't want the source to fall into the wrong hands".