5 ms·

The problem is moving money into war zones in a way that is immune to theft and abuse. The vouchers are 100% digital and unique.

logifail 8y ago
I thought the vouchers were going to people living in refugee camps? Presumably along with "100% digital vouchers", you need to ship out any required infrastructure, stuff like iris scanners and computers. Are these computers and iris scanners also immune to theft and abuse? They sound amazing :) Does the system require a working power grid?
- decentralised 8y ago
  The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (edit: for security reasons). It does require power but something like what we're building for the Sun Protocol (http://thesunprotocol.io http://thesunprotocol.io) can be deployed in hours and support token based payments instantly. I briefly worked with a startup whose founder is a Syrian refugee. Smart-phones and crypto wallets is what allows many of them to survive.
  - logifail 8y ago
    >> The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (I'm genuinely curious) what kind of coverage across the globe are we talking about here? Things have obviously come a long way, it's not that long ago that the UNHCR was talking about "water, sanitation and hygiene". More infrastructure questions: does the system also require a working internet connection? If so, when the internet connection goes down, can vouchers no-longer be "redeemed" until it comes back up?
    - decentralised 8y ago
      Well there doesn't need to be a fully working, always up internet connection. A satellite connection will do just fine, and these tend to be available at camps. One way of doing this would be with state channels, where most of the oltp is done off-chain and signed messages can be relayed via sneaker-net until an on-line node is found days / weeks later.
    - logifail 8y ago
      If you're not working directly on the chain, because there's no internet connection, how do you deal with double-spending attacks?
      - decentralised 8y ago
        The sort of off-chain processing I mentioned requires the wallets / holders to enter a special smart-contract (state-channels) that locks their tokens. Think of it as a having a tab at a bar where the barman keeps track of your orders and at some point may tell you the tab is closed and you don't have any credit left. In fact that very method was used recently in a festival here in the Netherlands (https://blog.loyalgarden.co/running-a-live-festival-on-crypto-tokens-is-that-possible-7c6a9c2d94c9 https://blog.loyalgarden.co/running-a-live-festival-on-crypt...) Double-spends can only be securely verified once the transaction is processed on-chain but keeping track of nonces and signatures can be done with a secondary (off-chain) system which is easy to do with a limited population. The Suntainers we built have WiFi and GSM included so that transactions can be relayed along the ground network.
- matwood 8y ago
  Of course almost anything can be abused. The digital voucher system is much harder to abuse than sending pallets of cash or food though. Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. You are correct though, that it's not an across the board improvement because of the additional required infrastructure.
  - logifail 8y ago
    >> Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. Let's not forget that "simple" often beats "complex". I'm still not sure what blockchain actually brings to this particular use-case, compared with a digital yet non-blockchain-based alternative.
    - decentralised 8y ago
      The problem is that there is no form of digital good that is incorruptible and unfalsifiable that is not blockchain-based.
      - logifail 8y ago
        Someone else just suggested that we ought not to "let perfect get in the way of improvement". The way this discussion is going I can't help but think of Ernesto Sirolli's talk[0] To put it another way, are the refugees themselves demanding "incorruptible and unfalsifiable", or are they actually just hungry? [0] https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someo...
        decentralised 8y ago
        The refugees just want to go back home and be with their loved ones. The demand for a unfalsifiable and incorruptible digital record comes from the NGOs and government organisations who want to make sure their funds are being used to feed the needy not the insurgents that often get into the camps. I have only a partial view of what life is like in one such camp. What I'm told and have seen to some extent is that people who are in such a fragile position trust no one and will act on their basic survival instincts, which sometimes makes the life of those trying to help them very hard. What I'm trying to say is that if we sent dollars into the camp, you have no idea what people would do for them...
icebraining 8y ago
How do they solve the $5 wrench problem?
- decentralised 8y ago
  Have a look at this list, number 15 will surprise you :-) https://github.com/jpantunes/awesome-cryptoeconomics#attacks https://github.com/jpantunes/awesome-cryptoeconomics#attacks There is nothing a blockchain can do to prevent a stray bullet from harming you or a wrench breaking your knees. What cryptocurrencies can do is create a layer of abstraction between account owners and accounts /wallets, so individuals have plausible deniability and the chance to make a run for it. It's slightly better than a pin or password protected card that you must carry with you.
  - logifail 8y ago
    >> What cryptocurrencies can do is create a layer of abstraction between account owners and accounts /wallets Except it appears that every refugee in the camp is going to have to register if they want to register to receive and exchange tokens for food, and everyone is going to be allocated funds via tokens (weekly? monthly? there must be some cycle), so there's basically no deniability at all, and the abstraction is pretty much worthless. Once your hypothetical insurgant has sourced a $5 wrench, what's to stop them grabbing anyone in the camp on the day tokens are distributed, marching over to the food distribution point, and "helping" the token holder make the required withdrawal?
    - decentralised 8y ago
      In the case with the camp, the retina scan is required to "access" the tokens but that's a specific operational requirement. There isn't much you can buy other than food there.
      - logifail 8y ago
        You may think you are preventing a secondary market in the tokens themselves by means of the retina scan, but once the tokens are exchanged for goods it's almost inevitable that a secondary market will develop (prisoners use anything from noodles[0] to cans of tuna fish[1] as their 'currency'). There will also be theft, it just will be of goods, not tokens. A cynic might think that the NGOs and governments will just dismiss these issues as the refugees' problem. "We saw that all funds were distributed to the correct recipient. because blockchain!" Life will find a way. It's not always the way you expect. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/22/ramen-prison-currency-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/22/ramen-prison... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/shortcuts/2016/aug/23/what-do-british-prisoners-use-as-currency https://www.theguardian.com/society/shortcuts/2016/aug/23/wh...

logifail 8y ago

I thought the vouchers were going to people living in refugee camps? Presumably along with "100% digital vouchers", you need to ship out any required infrastructure, stuff like iris scanners and computers. Are these computers and iris scanners also immune to theft and abuse? They sound amazing :) Does the system require a working power grid?

decentralised 8y ago
The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (edit: for security reasons). It does require power but something like what we're building for the Sun Protocol (http://thesunprotocol.io http://thesunprotocol.io) can be deployed in hours and support token based payments instantly. I briefly worked with a startup whose founder is a Syrian refugee. Smart-phones and crypto wallets is what allows many of them to survive.
- logifail 8y ago
  >> The infrastructure of iris scanners and computers already exists in refugee camps (I'm genuinely curious) what kind of coverage across the globe are we talking about here? Things have obviously come a long way, it's not that long ago that the UNHCR was talking about "water, sanitation and hygiene". More infrastructure questions: does the system also require a working internet connection? If so, when the internet connection goes down, can vouchers no-longer be "redeemed" until it comes back up?
  - decentralised 8y ago
    Well there doesn't need to be a fully working, always up internet connection. A satellite connection will do just fine, and these tend to be available at camps. One way of doing this would be with state channels, where most of the oltp is done off-chain and signed messages can be relayed via sneaker-net until an on-line node is found days / weeks later.
  - logifail 8y ago
    If you're not working directly on the chain, because there's no internet connection, how do you deal with double-spending attacks?
    - decentralised 8y ago
      The sort of off-chain processing I mentioned requires the wallets / holders to enter a special smart-contract (state-channels) that locks their tokens. Think of it as a having a tab at a bar where the barman keeps track of your orders and at some point may tell you the tab is closed and you don't have any credit left. In fact that very method was used recently in a festival here in the Netherlands (https://blog.loyalgarden.co/running-a-live-festival-on-crypto-tokens-is-that-possible-7c6a9c2d94c9 https://blog.loyalgarden.co/running-a-live-festival-on-crypt...) Double-spends can only be securely verified once the transaction is processed on-chain but keeping track of nonces and signatures can be done with a secondary (off-chain) system which is easy to do with a limited population. The Suntainers we built have WiFi and GSM included so that transactions can be relayed along the ground network.
matwood 8y ago
Of course almost anything can be abused. The digital voucher system is much harder to abuse than sending pallets of cash or food though. Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. You are correct though, that it's not an across the board improvement because of the additional required infrastructure.
- logifail 8y ago
  >> Don't let perfect get in the way of improvement. Let's not forget that "simple" often beats "complex". I'm still not sure what blockchain actually brings to this particular use-case, compared with a digital yet non-blockchain-based alternative.
  - decentralised 8y ago
    The problem is that there is no form of digital good that is incorruptible and unfalsifiable that is not blockchain-based.
    - logifail 8y ago
      Someone else just suggested that we ought not to "let perfect get in the way of improvement". The way this discussion is going I can't help but think of Ernesto Sirolli's talk[0] To put it another way, are the refugees themselves demanding "incorruptible and unfalsifiable", or are they actually just hungry? [0] https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someo...
      - decentralised 8y ago
        The refugees just want to go back home and be with their loved ones. The demand for a unfalsifiable and incorruptible digital record comes from the NGOs and government organisations who want to make sure their funds are being used to feed the needy not the insurgents that often get into the camps. I have only a partial view of what life is like in one such camp. What I'm told and have seen to some extent is that people who are in such a fragile position trust no one and will act on their basic survival instincts, which sometimes makes the life of those trying to help them very hard. What I'm trying to say is that if we sent dollars into the camp, you have no idea what people would do for them...

icebraining 8y ago

How do they solve the $5 wrench problem?

decentralised 8y ago
Have a look at this list, number 15 will surprise you :-) https://github.com/jpantunes/awesome-cryptoeconomics#attacks https://github.com/jpantunes/awesome-cryptoeconomics#attacks There is nothing a blockchain can do to prevent a stray bullet from harming you or a wrench breaking your knees. What cryptocurrencies can do is create a layer of abstraction between account owners and accounts /wallets, so individuals have plausible deniability and the chance to make a run for it. It's slightly better than a pin or password protected card that you must carry with you.
- logifail 8y ago
  >> What cryptocurrencies can do is create a layer of abstraction between account owners and accounts /wallets Except it appears that every refugee in the camp is going to have to register if they want to register to receive and exchange tokens for food, and everyone is going to be allocated funds via tokens (weekly? monthly? there must be some cycle), so there's basically no deniability at all, and the abstraction is pretty much worthless. Once your hypothetical insurgant has sourced a $5 wrench, what's to stop them grabbing anyone in the camp on the day tokens are distributed, marching over to the food distribution point, and "helping" the token holder make the required withdrawal?
  - decentralised 8y ago
    In the case with the camp, the retina scan is required to "access" the tokens but that's a specific operational requirement. There isn't much you can buy other than food there.
    - logifail 8y ago
      You may think you are preventing a secondary market in the tokens themselves by means of the retina scan, but once the tokens are exchanged for goods it's almost inevitable that a secondary market will develop (prisoners use anything from noodles[0] to cans of tuna fish[1] as their 'currency'). There will also be theft, it just will be of goods, not tokens. A cynic might think that the NGOs and governments will just dismiss these issues as the refugees' problem. "We saw that all funds were distributed to the correct recipient. because blockchain!" Life will find a way. It's not always the way you expect. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/22/ramen-prison-currency-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/22/ramen-prison... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/shortcuts/2016/aug/23/what-do-british-prisoners-use-as-currency https://www.theguardian.com/society/shortcuts/2016/aug/23/wh...