7 ms·

FOSS is free as in toilet

214 points by bellinom 8y ago

anfilt 8y ago
Pretty short, but funny analogy. I would say true in some regards.
- orionblastar 8y ago
  FOSS like a free toilet needs maintenance from time to time. In Thailand, the toilets are pay in some areas and they clean them and take care of them. In the USA they used to have paid toilets but got rid of them because it was called discrimination against the poor. A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. With FOSS you might have a bug report and hope it gets fixed in the next release.
  - zeroname 8y ago
    > In the USA they used to have paid toilets but got rid of them because it was called discrimination against the poor. Meanwhile, in "socialist" Europe, paid toilets are the norm. Then again, wild urination isn't a sex offense either.
    - wongarsu 8y ago
      In Europe you have to try very hard to fall below the level where you can afford 1€ for a toilet. Arguments that poor people can't use pay toilets don't really work with all that money spent to make sure people always have enough to life with some dignity.
      - nnq 8y ago
        ...it's not about affording: when they're drunk and can't find any change in your pocket, they end up pissing on a wall and stiking up the whole street. Some things need to be free even if they are easily affordable simply because (1) there's enough tax money to cover for it, and (2) a (large) proportion of people will simply find payment inconvenient so won't use the paid service, making life stinkier for everyone around. But hey, at least they got it right with EDUCATION, which probably matters more than this :)
    - nnq 8y ago
      > wild urination isn't a sex offense either UNFORTUNATELY! I'd institute jail time or corporal multilation punishment for this tbh. Lots of European cities stink like unwashed toilets! One of the most stinky examples would be Paris (and all >500k people city in France and probably Spain and Italy too).
    - Thiez 8y ago
      Perhaps not a sex offense, but it can still be illegal. Here in the Netherlands it's illegal in the "bebouwde kom" (basically within a village/town/city). But it's fine when you're in a forest somewhere (within reason - don't piss on someones leg).
  - msla 8y ago
    > A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. This is obviously untrue unless you have a support contract in hand, which means you're a business. Hell, Microsoft would probably shoot you for implying its software which you paid for comes with a warranty, let alone support. In Apple Land, "You're Holding It Wrong" is considered tech support. /s
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    On the other hand, I'm having a hard time thinking of a single pay toilet in Japan where I live. I'm sure they exist, but they aren't common. The toilets are also spotless, by and large. It's part of the business ethos to provide clean toilets for the public. The idea that businesses should pay for software that is important to their infrastructure is somewhat similar. I mean, you don't have to pay, but businesses are increasingly getting the idea that it is good for their business to do so. Although I'm a dyed in the wool "Free as in Freedom" guy, I think the Open Source movement has done a lot of good by explaining to businesses that it's not just an ethical movement. It's good for business too. That message is important. Edit: Spelling
  - SXX 8y ago
    > A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. With FOSS you might have a bug report and hope it gets fixed in the next release. I dont want to play any kind of fanboy here, but in case of many software products unless you talking of huge corporate customer it's very unlikely to get any kind of proper fix faster than in open source software. Yeah there is few software companies that play close attention to end-users problems and rapidly provide fixes, but in most cases you have to wait month+ to see fix included in some future release. What author in the link is talking about is that end users of FOSS aren't often financially support developers or just random people who play role of user support within community.
  - msla 8y ago
    > A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. This is obviously untrue unless you have a support contract in hand, which means you're a business.
picsao 8y ago
Even free software does not care about the developers of free software. When did rms ever mention there well beeing or the well beeing of those who financially depend on them?
polotics 8y ago
By the way whatever happened to attempts to set up FOSS licenses that prohibit the usage of "free" software on a range of damaging exploitative activities? Eg. "It's free, or one million per day if your company pays any worker less than a living wage / kills people / allows enforcement of human rights violation like, ironically, restrictions on freedom of speech..."
- robin_reala 8y ago
  They don’t count as ‘Open Source’ according to the definition of the Open Source Foundation: https://opensource.org/docs/osd https://opensource.org/docs/osd 6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    Or nuclear warheads.
- bad_user 8y ago
  Such software is not Free Software or Open Source, according to their definitions. The freedom to use the software for any purpose is imo the most important freedom of all. Straight from the horse's mouth, here's Richard Stallman on "why programs must not limit the freedom to run them": https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freed...
  - tokyodude 8y ago
    RMS also has a solution > Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned. > All sorts of development can be funded with a Software Tax: > Suppose everyone who buys a computer has to pay x percent of the price as a software tax. The government gives this to an agency like the NSF to spend on software development. https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html not personally a fan of that solution
jancsika 8y ago
That's one of the funniest titles I've read in a long time. That said, this is an incoherent rant. What does Google/Facebook's "jealously guarded" user data have to do with how FOSS developers are treated and remunerated? I get the feeling that if I could time-travel back to magically solve the social media and data privacy problem purely with FOSS, some other non-sequitur complaint would pop off the queue into the slot for that sentence. ["Besides, even with FOSS we still don't control the hardware", "FOSS UIs stink", "Year of the Linux Desktop LOL", "FOSS has just as many bugs as proprietary software", "GNU is less secure than IOS"].push("etc.");
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
  > That said, this is an incoherent rant. What does Google/Facebook's "jealously guarded" user data have to do with how FOSS developers are treated and remunerated? It's because arguably in the past (80-90s) the highest value was with the code, and it was it that was jealously guarded. Now the code doesn't have that much value and there are clones of almost everything, and the weight shifted towards the piles of user data. In other words, if I'm motivated enough, I can create a Facebook clone (with less useless functionality but arguably better user experience) in 2-3 months, but I'll never be able to gather a fraction of the user data they managed to get.
  - throwaway12iii 8y ago
    You can't create a facebook clone in 2-3 months. Facebook is like FacebookOS, it probably has emacs somewhere in there. The size of functionality that FB provides is like a Mammoth (one of the ones standing on a turtle with the world on its back). Maybe something simpler with some subset of the functionality that some subset of users care about. Your point still stands about taking a long time to suck up the data. Also, now you'll probably get thrown in jail for doing 1% of the shady evil shit FB have done (and continue to do!).
    - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
      > Facebook is like FacebookOS, it probably has emacs somewhere in there. The size of functionality that FB provides is like a Mammoth (one of the ones standing on a turtle with the world on its back). I'm aware of that. The question is: how much of this functionality is actually used and appreciated by the users? > Maybe something simpler with some subset of the functionality that some subset of users care about. I'd venture to say "the majority of users care about". I did some amateurish research a while ago asking people how they are using FB. Most just scroll the feed, chat via FB, click "like" and occasionally comment; some participate in FB groups. There is a ton of functions rarely used, and some are deliberately broken (for example, FB deliberately removed past birthday notifications to create a sense of urgency to log on more often, and you need a workaround to catch up if you log in less often). If you actually start using HumHub and compare it to FB, the former is a real pleasure to use. Will it ever have more users? Practically speaking, it's impossible. In any case, my point is not how fast one can create a usable FB clone, but that the code itself is no longer something that need to be jealously guarded.
Y_Y 8y ago
So why don't national governments and local councils, create and maintain software for the public good, like toilets? I mean this in the euro-socialist model. If that's anathema to you, substitute charity or benevolent technocrat.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Software often doesn't look like a good idea up-front, so nobody would pay for it up-front. If you went to the government or a charity in 2003 before Facebook and said you wanted funding to build it because it'll be critical to society in the future, you'd be laughed out.
  - dnautics 8y ago
    And there's no guarantee that what you would build wouldn't be horrible in the same way because it might be inherent to social media (vs inherent to ad-driven social media... I don't know but no one has the data), or possibly horrible in a completely different be way from how Facebook is horrible now.
- chopin 8y ago
  That's a good question. On the one hand, probably there would be much being developed which isn't used (like the search engines subsidized by the EU). On the other hand I'd love to see a real OS/Desktop alternative being developed. I use Linux now, but I think to be used in Enterprises or public service it lacks features as good central maintainability (where Microsoft really shines). AD integration is really difficult with Linux Desktops and I am not aware of any (good) alternative to group policies. I absolutely loathe the fact that Windows (and Windows 10 specially) is used in public services.
  - kriro 8y ago
    """I use Linux now, but I think to be used in Enterprises or public service it lacks features as good central maintainability (where Microsoft really shines)""" I think in a Linux only environment maintainability is pretty good. Especially for centralized software rollouts and updates (and security fixes) I prefer Linux over Windows. There's virtualization and software packaging solutions in Windows land but from my experience the things that work best are usually from third parties, cost quite a bit and don't work all that great in many edge cases. For user management in Linuxland, Kerberos for authentication and LDAP for authorization works pretty well. But AD in Windowsland is very good. As you said, the problems start once you enter a mixed environment (which is pretty much always the case). I'm not sure if the blame should be put on Windowsland or Linuxland in mixed environments but it's usually put on Linux.
jamespitts 8y ago
The author decries that governance and tragedies of the commons are for inert resources. This is not the case, but perhaps this thinking pervades software projects. We can learn from Elinor Ostrom's economics work, as well as from Christopher Allen's thinking/writing about the commons of open source projects in particular. Ostrom’s Design Principles for Collective Governance of the Commons http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2015/11/a-revised-ostroms-design-principles-for-collective-governance-of-the-commons-.html http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2015/11/a-revised-ostroms-de...
Traubenfuchs 8y ago
The analogy is flawed. There is no congestion and wear associated with software library use. Also I am not afraid of FOSS dying or shrivelling up. From the perspective of a career software developer or manager it would be a new golden age of in-house development and library sales. Less open source software = more jobs
- sam0x17 8y ago
  Congestion and wear in the form of outdated dependencies, security vulnerabilities, technical debt, and ever-changing platform/os compatibility requirements. Surely these things fit the analogy?
- sumanthvepa 8y ago
  No. Less open source software does NOT mean more jobs. It means fewer. For example, if every startup that ever started had to buy a commercial database @$100K license before doing anything, then very few startups would have evolved. And all the employment they eventually generate would not materialise. Free software was a huge factor in making the Internet possible and all the jobs it created.
  - mcbits 8y ago
    Shoestring startups would use a $10 shareware database, which is still a proprietary commercial database. Or they would use the stripped-down, free/cheap version of the $100k database. Or they would pirate it and scramble to make $100k before they get caught.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  I think you are probably right, there are a handful of companies that benefit from open source but as individuals I suspect we all loose a little by devaluing our creations.
deleted 8y ago
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- deleted 8y ago
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yason 8y ago
I don't see the relevance. Open source developers need not be burning themselves out, they can just choose to work on what they want. If a big company uses an open source library there's no contractual agreement that the developer must slave away for free and fix stuff for the big company. The developer, or the company that develops open source, can just essentially say "fuck it!" and do whatever they want. Instead, the big company can take what's available. If it's not enough, they can contribute to the open source project (a wise move!), find a replacement project to ride on, or buy or write their own implementation. Not all open source developers work for free but many do because they want to spend some of their time building something they care about. If the project has big impact sometimes the developers get hired to continue working on the software on a payroll. This is probably a win-win: the developer gets paid to do what he would be doing anyway and the company gets stability into future development. If open source developers want to build a good, trusted brand of their software then it of course takes continuous involvement to support their users and can lead to burn-outs but that has nothing to do with open source. The exact same applies to building an established brand out of proprietary software. And that effort only makes sense in the first place if there's a chance for a significant financial payout in the end, or the developers really, really just want fame in which case they have their own priorities on how they want to resource the development. Still, nothing to do with open source per se. I bet a thousand-fold more developers are burning out in jobs working on proprietary software.
- bad_user 8y ago
  I’m not sure what your point is. As a personal curiosity, do you maintain open source projects that actually have users depending on it? I’m asking because when people say that OSS devs of popular projects suffer from burnout, that’s not an opinion, but a matter of fact. And no, it’s not the same as a regular job. It’s more like starting your own company, except without the payoff.
  - azangru 8y ago
    > do you maintain open source projects that actually have users depending on it? I’m asking because when people say that OSS devs of popular projects suffer from burnout, that’s not an opinion, but a matter of fact. Not the author of the parent comment and not a maintainer of a popular open-source project, but could you explain the process of how devs get into this trap of burning out? I mean, there are quite a few projects that have been abandoned by people who lost interest or have too much on their plate, so their authors are by no means forced to stay on the project if they no longer want or are able to. These projects can be forked or taken up by other maintainers.
tokyodude 8y ago
Funny but, at least in the USA, public toilets are a great example of the tragedy of the commons. They are almost universally destroyed. In malls and shopping centers, in fast food restaurants and cafes, in movie theaters. I'm sure there are worse countries but I also know there are plenty of better countries. As an American it depresses me. My culture seems to be one of "it's a rite of passage to destroy the commons" that includes kicking in the doors to toilet stalls until they break. Peeing standing up in a toilet when their are perfectly good urinals. Putting entire roles of toilet paper in the toilet "just for fun". It's so common that AFAIK it's just assumed that's the way the world is. It's not. Plenty of other countries don't have that culture. I've often wished someone one like The Lonely Island would find a comedy meme to make it embarrassing to be caught trashing/breaking/abusing public restrooms. Well I can dream that my culture would change.
- mifreewil 8y ago
  Interested to know how unique US is in this regard. If your name checks out, I assume Japan is one such country where things differ from your experience. I would guess that Japan is the exception though, not the rule.
  - tokyodude 8y ago
    I haven't lived anywhere else only traveled so my experience elsewhere is only from a few days. Found toilets nicer than anything in Japan in Copenhagen, Stockholm, a few places in Germany. They usually had a fee of 10 to 50 cents and so stuck out in my memory but like I said, only there a few days each no idea what the norm is.
    - mifreewil 8y ago
      But if the clean toilets have controlled access that requires a fee for use then that mitigates tragedy of commons effect. Not aware of many places like that in the US.
  - mcv 8y ago
    Why do you assume the behaviour in the US would be the rule? I have on occasion come across toilets in a terrible state, but for the most part, toilets in Europe, paid or not, tend to be fairly decent. In need of cleaning, sure, but it's certainly not common for people to kick in the doors or anything like that. Well, the office in which I'm currently working seems to have some people with a surprisingly poor aim, so there's that. But there's certainly no culture to intentionally destroy the place. My experience is mostly western Europe.
keypress 8y ago
How about a self cleaning toilet?
notacoward 8y ago
I get the author's point, and it's a good one, but I think it could be better made without connecting free software to defecation. The metaphor I'd reach for might be more like a park bench or water fountain, which can also be appropriated or degraded by selfish users but doesn't start out with that negative association.
fiatjaf 8y ago
You mean you want companies to stop relying on FOSS and start paying for people to write "better code" for them while at the same time programmers should stop working on FOSS and just start working on things they're paid for? Great idea, that will surely improve things.
proactivesvcs 8y ago
Perhaps before flinging the first roll of toilet paper, one should put up a sign with the name of the software used to create the toilet.
dustycat 8y ago
Same old, same old: https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

214 points by bellinom 8y ago

anfilt 8y ago

Pretty short, but funny analogy. I would say true in some regards.

orionblastar 8y ago
FOSS like a free toilet needs maintenance from time to time. In Thailand, the toilets are pay in some areas and they clean them and take care of them. In the USA they used to have paid toilets but got rid of them because it was called discrimination against the poor. A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. With FOSS you might have a bug report and hope it gets fixed in the next release.
- zeroname 8y ago
  > In the USA they used to have paid toilets but got rid of them because it was called discrimination against the poor. Meanwhile, in "socialist" Europe, paid toilets are the norm. Then again, wild urination isn't a sex offense either.
  - wongarsu 8y ago
    In Europe you have to try very hard to fall below the level where you can afford 1€ for a toilet. Arguments that poor people can't use pay toilets don't really work with all that money spent to make sure people always have enough to life with some dignity.
    - nnq 8y ago
      ...it's not about affording: when they're drunk and can't find any change in your pocket, they end up pissing on a wall and stiking up the whole street. Some things need to be free even if they are easily affordable simply because (1) there's enough tax money to cover for it, and (2) a (large) proportion of people will simply find payment inconvenient so won't use the paid service, making life stinkier for everyone around. But hey, at least they got it right with EDUCATION, which probably matters more than this :)
  - nnq 8y ago
    > wild urination isn't a sex offense either UNFORTUNATELY! I'd institute jail time or corporal multilation punishment for this tbh. Lots of European cities stink like unwashed toilets! One of the most stinky examples would be Paris (and all >500k people city in France and probably Spain and Italy too).
  - Thiez 8y ago
    Perhaps not a sex offense, but it can still be illegal. Here in the Netherlands it's illegal in the "bebouwde kom" (basically within a village/town/city). But it's fine when you're in a forest somewhere (within reason - don't piss on someones leg).
- msla 8y ago
  > A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. This is obviously untrue unless you have a support contract in hand, which means you're a business. Hell, Microsoft would probably shoot you for implying its software which you paid for comes with a warranty, let alone support. In Apple Land, "You're Holding It Wrong" is considered tech support. /s
- mikekchar 8y ago
  On the other hand, I'm having a hard time thinking of a single pay toilet in Japan where I live. I'm sure they exist, but they aren't common. The toilets are also spotless, by and large. It's part of the business ethos to provide clean toilets for the public. The idea that businesses should pay for software that is important to their infrastructure is somewhat similar. I mean, you don't have to pay, but businesses are increasingly getting the idea that it is good for their business to do so. Although I'm a dyed in the wool "Free as in Freedom" guy, I think the Open Source movement has done a lot of good by explaining to businesses that it's not just an ethical movement. It's good for business too. That message is important. Edit: Spelling
- SXX 8y ago
  > A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. With FOSS you might have a bug report and hope it gets fixed in the next release. I dont want to play any kind of fanboy here, but in case of many software products unless you talking of huge corporate customer it's very unlikely to get any kind of proper fix faster than in open source software. Yeah there is few software companies that play close attention to end-users problems and rapidly provide fixes, but in most cases you have to wait month+ to see fix included in some future release. What author in the link is talking about is that end users of FOSS aren't often financially support developers or just random people who play role of user support within community.
- msla 8y ago
  > A reason why pay software does so well is that there is hand holding within a phone call away if something goes wrong. This is obviously untrue unless you have a support contract in hand, which means you're a business.

picsao 8y ago

Even free software does not care about the developers of free software. When did rms ever mention there well beeing or the well beeing of those who financially depend on them?

polotics 8y ago

By the way whatever happened to attempts to set up FOSS licenses that prohibit the usage of "free" software on a range of damaging exploitative activities? Eg. "It's free, or one million per day if your company pays any worker less than a living wage / kills people / allows enforcement of human rights violation like, ironically, restrictions on freedom of speech..."

robin_reala 8y ago
They don’t count as ‘Open Source’ according to the definition of the Open Source Foundation: https://opensource.org/docs/osd https://opensource.org/docs/osd 6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.
- jacobush 8y ago
  Or nuclear warheads.
bad_user 8y ago
Such software is not Free Software or Open Source, according to their definitions. The freedom to use the software for any purpose is imo the most important freedom of all. Straight from the horse's mouth, here's Richard Stallman on "why programs must not limit the freedom to run them": https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freed...
- tokyodude 8y ago
  RMS also has a solution > Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned. > All sorts of development can be funded with a Software Tax: > Suppose everyone who buys a computer has to pay x percent of the price as a software tax. The government gives this to an agency like the NSF to spend on software development. https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html not personally a fan of that solution

jancsika 8y ago

That's one of the funniest titles I've read in a long time. That said, this is an incoherent rant. What does Google/Facebook's "jealously guarded" user data have to do with how FOSS developers are treated and remunerated? I get the feeling that if I could time-travel back to magically solve the social media and data privacy problem purely with FOSS, some other non-sequitur complaint would pop off the queue into the slot for that sentence. ["Besides, even with FOSS we still don't control the hardware", "FOSS UIs stink", "Year of the Linux Desktop LOL", "FOSS has just as many bugs as proprietary software", "GNU is less secure than IOS"].push("etc.");

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
> That said, this is an incoherent rant. What does Google/Facebook's "jealously guarded" user data have to do with how FOSS developers are treated and remunerated? It's because arguably in the past (80-90s) the highest value was with the code, and it was it that was jealously guarded. Now the code doesn't have that much value and there are clones of almost everything, and the weight shifted towards the piles of user data. In other words, if I'm motivated enough, I can create a Facebook clone (with less useless functionality but arguably better user experience) in 2-3 months, but I'll never be able to gather a fraction of the user data they managed to get.
- throwaway12iii 8y ago
  You can't create a facebook clone in 2-3 months. Facebook is like FacebookOS, it probably has emacs somewhere in there. The size of functionality that FB provides is like a Mammoth (one of the ones standing on a turtle with the world on its back). Maybe something simpler with some subset of the functionality that some subset of users care about. Your point still stands about taking a long time to suck up the data. Also, now you'll probably get thrown in jail for doing 1% of the shady evil shit FB have done (and continue to do!).
  - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
    > Facebook is like FacebookOS, it probably has emacs somewhere in there. The size of functionality that FB provides is like a Mammoth (one of the ones standing on a turtle with the world on its back). I'm aware of that. The question is: how much of this functionality is actually used and appreciated by the users? > Maybe something simpler with some subset of the functionality that some subset of users care about. I'd venture to say "the majority of users care about". I did some amateurish research a while ago asking people how they are using FB. Most just scroll the feed, chat via FB, click "like" and occasionally comment; some participate in FB groups. There is a ton of functions rarely used, and some are deliberately broken (for example, FB deliberately removed past birthday notifications to create a sense of urgency to log on more often, and you need a workaround to catch up if you log in less often). If you actually start using HumHub and compare it to FB, the former is a real pleasure to use. Will it ever have more users? Practically speaking, it's impossible. In any case, my point is not how fast one can create a usable FB clone, but that the code itself is no longer something that need to be jealously guarded.

Y_Y 8y ago

So why don't national governments and local councils, create and maintain software for the public good, like toilets? I mean this in the euro-socialist model. If that's anathema to you, substitute charity or benevolent technocrat.

chrisseaton 8y ago
Software often doesn't look like a good idea up-front, so nobody would pay for it up-front. If you went to the government or a charity in 2003 before Facebook and said you wanted funding to build it because it'll be critical to society in the future, you'd be laughed out.
- dnautics 8y ago
  And there's no guarantee that what you would build wouldn't be horrible in the same way because it might be inherent to social media (vs inherent to ad-driven social media... I don't know but no one has the data), or possibly horrible in a completely different be way from how Facebook is horrible now.
chopin 8y ago
That's a good question. On the one hand, probably there would be much being developed which isn't used (like the search engines subsidized by the EU). On the other hand I'd love to see a real OS/Desktop alternative being developed. I use Linux now, but I think to be used in Enterprises or public service it lacks features as good central maintainability (where Microsoft really shines). AD integration is really difficult with Linux Desktops and I am not aware of any (good) alternative to group policies. I absolutely loathe the fact that Windows (and Windows 10 specially) is used in public services.
- kriro 8y ago
  """I use Linux now, but I think to be used in Enterprises or public service it lacks features as good central maintainability (where Microsoft really shines)""" I think in a Linux only environment maintainability is pretty good. Especially for centralized software rollouts and updates (and security fixes) I prefer Linux over Windows. There's virtualization and software packaging solutions in Windows land but from my experience the things that work best are usually from third parties, cost quite a bit and don't work all that great in many edge cases. For user management in Linuxland, Kerberos for authentication and LDAP for authorization works pretty well. But AD in Windowsland is very good. As you said, the problems start once you enter a mixed environment (which is pretty much always the case). I'm not sure if the blame should be put on Windowsland or Linuxland in mixed environments but it's usually put on Linux.

jamespitts 8y ago

The author decries that governance and tragedies of the commons are for inert resources. This is not the case, but perhaps this thinking pervades software projects. We can learn from Elinor Ostrom's economics work, as well as from Christopher Allen's thinking/writing about the commons of open source projects in particular. Ostrom’s Design Principles for Collective Governance of the Commons http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2015/11/a-revised-ostroms-design-principles-for-collective-governance-of-the-commons-.html http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2015/11/a-revised-ostroms-de...

Traubenfuchs 8y ago

The analogy is flawed. There is no congestion and wear associated with software library use. Also I am not afraid of FOSS dying or shrivelling up. From the perspective of a career software developer or manager it would be a new golden age of in-house development and library sales. Less open source software = more jobs

sam0x17 8y ago
Congestion and wear in the form of outdated dependencies, security vulnerabilities, technical debt, and ever-changing platform/os compatibility requirements. Surely these things fit the analogy?
sumanthvepa 8y ago
No. Less open source software does NOT mean more jobs. It means fewer. For example, if every startup that ever started had to buy a commercial database @$100K license before doing anything, then very few startups would have evolved. And all the employment they eventually generate would not materialise. Free software was a huge factor in making the Internet possible and all the jobs it created.
- mcbits 8y ago
  Shoestring startups would use a $10 shareware database, which is still a proprietary commercial database. Or they would use the stripped-down, free/cheap version of the $100k database. Or they would pirate it and scramble to make $100k before they get caught.
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tonyedgecombe 8y ago
I think you are probably right, there are a handful of companies that benefit from open source but as individuals I suspect we all loose a little by devaluing our creations.

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yason 8y ago

I don't see the relevance. Open source developers need not be burning themselves out, they can just choose to work on what they want. If a big company uses an open source library there's no contractual agreement that the developer must slave away for free and fix stuff for the big company. The developer, or the company that develops open source, can just essentially say "fuck it!" and do whatever they want. Instead, the big company can take what's available. If it's not enough, they can contribute to the open source project (a wise move!), find a replacement project to ride on, or buy or write their own implementation. Not all open source developers work for free but many do because they want to spend some of their time building something they care about. If the project has big impact sometimes the developers get hired to continue working on the software on a payroll. This is probably a win-win: the developer gets paid to do what he would be doing anyway and the company gets stability into future development. If open source developers want to build a good, trusted brand of their software then it of course takes continuous involvement to support their users and can lead to burn-outs but that has nothing to do with open source. The exact same applies to building an established brand out of proprietary software. And that effort only makes sense in the first place if there's a chance for a significant financial payout in the end, or the developers really, really just want fame in which case they have their own priorities on how they want to resource the development. Still, nothing to do with open source per se. I bet a thousand-fold more developers are burning out in jobs working on proprietary software.

bad_user 8y ago
I’m not sure what your point is. As a personal curiosity, do you maintain open source projects that actually have users depending on it? I’m asking because when people say that OSS devs of popular projects suffer from burnout, that’s not an opinion, but a matter of fact. And no, it’s not the same as a regular job. It’s more like starting your own company, except without the payoff.
- azangru 8y ago
  > do you maintain open source projects that actually have users depending on it? I’m asking because when people say that OSS devs of popular projects suffer from burnout, that’s not an opinion, but a matter of fact. Not the author of the parent comment and not a maintainer of a popular open-source project, but could you explain the process of how devs get into this trap of burning out? I mean, there are quite a few projects that have been abandoned by people who lost interest or have too much on their plate, so their authors are by no means forced to stay on the project if they no longer want or are able to. These projects can be forked or taken up by other maintainers.

tokyodude 8y ago

Funny but, at least in the USA, public toilets are a great example of the tragedy of the commons. They are almost universally destroyed. In malls and shopping centers, in fast food restaurants and cafes, in movie theaters. I'm sure there are worse countries but I also know there are plenty of better countries. As an American it depresses me. My culture seems to be one of "it's a rite of passage to destroy the commons" that includes kicking in the doors to toilet stalls until they break. Peeing standing up in a toilet when their are perfectly good urinals. Putting entire roles of toilet paper in the toilet "just for fun". It's so common that AFAIK it's just assumed that's the way the world is. It's not. Plenty of other countries don't have that culture. I've often wished someone one like The Lonely Island would find a comedy meme to make it embarrassing to be caught trashing/breaking/abusing public restrooms. Well I can dream that my culture would change.

mifreewil 8y ago
Interested to know how unique US is in this regard. If your name checks out, I assume Japan is one such country where things differ from your experience. I would guess that Japan is the exception though, not the rule.
- tokyodude 8y ago
  I haven't lived anywhere else only traveled so my experience elsewhere is only from a few days. Found toilets nicer than anything in Japan in Copenhagen, Stockholm, a few places in Germany. They usually had a fee of 10 to 50 cents and so stuck out in my memory but like I said, only there a few days each no idea what the norm is.
  - mifreewil 8y ago
    But if the clean toilets have controlled access that requires a fee for use then that mitigates tragedy of commons effect. Not aware of many places like that in the US.
- mcv 8y ago
  Why do you assume the behaviour in the US would be the rule? I have on occasion come across toilets in a terrible state, but for the most part, toilets in Europe, paid or not, tend to be fairly decent. In need of cleaning, sure, but it's certainly not common for people to kick in the doors or anything like that. Well, the office in which I'm currently working seems to have some people with a surprisingly poor aim, so there's that. But there's certainly no culture to intentionally destroy the place. My experience is mostly western Europe.

keypress 8y ago

How about a self cleaning toilet?

notacoward 8y ago

I get the author's point, and it's a good one, but I think it could be better made without connecting free software to defecation. The metaphor I'd reach for might be more like a park bench or water fountain, which can also be appropriated or degraded by selfish users but doesn't start out with that negative association.

fiatjaf 8y ago

You mean you want companies to stop relying on FOSS and start paying for people to write "better code" for them while at the same time programmers should stop working on FOSS and just start working on things they're paid for? Great idea, that will surely improve things.

proactivesvcs 8y ago

Perhaps before flinging the first roll of toilet paper, one should put up a sign with the name of the software used to create the toilet.

dustycat 8y ago

Same old, same old: https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html