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> schools like this have been honing their pedagogy for thousands of years I think generally, evidence points to the contrary. It's amazing how quickly specifi

> schools like this have been honing their pedagogy for thousands of years I think generally, evidence points to the contrary. It's amazing how quickly specific martial arts lose their fighting ability when realistic sparring/fighting is replaced with forms, meditation, light/no contact, etc. See: 1993-1995 UFC competitions where traditional schools were destroyed by wrestlers, judoka, and BJJ.

gambler 8y ago
>See: 1993-1995 UFC competitions In a surprising turn of events, a tournament organized in large part as self-promotion by Gracie family "proven" the effectiveness of their martial art.
- mr_overalls 8y ago
  Please point me to any other relatively no-holds-barred type of contest that has "traditional" martial arts finishing strongly.
  - gambler 8y ago
    This isn't how it works. If you don't have good evidence to support your claims, the onus is on you to find better evidence, not on everyone else to provide evidence to the contrary.
    - CodeAndCuffs 8y ago
      He did. He pointed to the largest and most viewed no-holds-barred event in the world. The reply implied that the UFC was not impartial. He asked for an alternate example. He literally gave reasonable evidence to support his claim. The reply made a conflicting claim with no evidence, OP simply, respectfully, asked for evidence. Yeah, the early UFCs were a commercial for the Gracie's BJJ, but there is no sign or credible claim that it was rigged. Royce Gracie won UFC 1, 2, and 4 over the course of 13 months. After that it was mainly wrestlers. This isn't antagonistic, I would also like to see if there was a similar competition where 'traditional' martial arts fared better.
      - mr_overalls 8y ago
        Exactly. And on a personal note, my early-1990s self would have _loved_ to have seen traditional martial artists clean up at MMA competitions. I was heavily into Tiger Style kung fu. But after getting my clock cleaned in a few friendly-ish matches with local boxers and judoka - and after seeing the same results with the far-superior practitioners in the early UFC - I was forced to admit that I had been absolutely wrong about the practicality of my art. My fellow kung fu practitioner (who participated in some of these matches) sparred a boxer, got destroyed, and said something along the lines of, "Yeah, I could totally pulled off some really sweet palm strikes if he hadn't kept punching me in the face for, like, the entire match." An art practiced in a live manner with a resisting opponent seems to _always_ be more effective in real life, even if it's somewhat handicapped by rules of sport. Specifically, about six months into studying judo (after switching from kung fu), I got into an altercation outside of a bar. A larger man threw a punch at me, and I instinctively clinched. I was scared shitless and exactly zero of the fancy kung fu techniques of the previous three years came to mind. Instead, the judo techniques I'd trained for much less time - but under conditions of resistance and fatigue - basically activated themselves and my panicked mind just observed as my body dropped the guy onto pavement with a simple drop-knee shoulder throw. Fight over. It remains one of the most important lessons I've learned about martial arts and the human mind in general: the unconscious mind is in control. And it's less flexible than the thinking mind, but when it's trained appropriately for the situation at hand, it will respond with a speed and certainty (especially when fueled with adrenaline) that feels preternatural.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - gambler 8y ago
        >He literally gave reasonable evidence to support his claim. The reply made a conflicting claim with no evidence If the ridiculously small sample size, questionable sampling technique and the fact that one of the participants was part of the school/family that organized the whole event doesn't disqualify early UFCs as "evidence" in your eyes, then it's pretty clear you are simply want to confirm your biases. >This isn't antagonistic, I would also like to see if there was a similar competition where 'traditional' martial arts fared better. What's stopping you? Search for "open martial arts tournament". Good luck verifying whether participants are actually proficient in the art they claim to represent, though.
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    For awhile Thai-style kickboxing fighters with traditional training dominated in lighter weight classes. Took the MMA world a little while to catch up to them. Also, not "no holds barred," whatever that means, but you can call boxing a traditional martial art if not an Eastern one, and Floyd Mayweather absolutely dominated Conor McGregor in their one matchup. Naturally, Floyd would have gotten killed in an MMA match with McGregor, but that's another answer.
    - CodeAndCuffs 8y ago
      What? The UFC lightweight title (155) was first held by Jens Pulver (a wrestler/boxer) then Sean Sherk (wrestler) then Bj Penn until 2010 (BJJ prodigy) Every single UFC tournament has been won by wrestlers, sambo fighters, and bjj fighters, with the exception for UFC 3 where Steve Jennum (Ninjitsu) was an alternate and fought in the finals, where he won by a sloppy armbar. The upperweights are similar. Historically dominated by wrestlers and grapplers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions#Lightweight_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions#Lightwei...
      - vinceguidry 8y ago
        This might have been pre-UFC. I'm paraphrasing off of a remembered Quora answer.
      - gambler 8y ago
        >Steve Jennum (Ninjitsu) was an alternate and fought in the finals, where he won by a sloppy armbar. Ever heard of confirmation bias? Well, you're engaging in it right now. If winning an early UFC is "evidence" of MA effectiveness (which I don't think it is) then Steve Jennum's victory should be accepted as "evidence" that Ninjitsu is effective. But you've just offhandedly dismissed it. This a common pattern. Often, when a practitioner of traditional martial arts wins an MMA fight of any sort, MMA fans proclaim it "doesn't count" because of one of the following: - It supposedly didn't look like their style of fighting. - They cross-trained in other martial arts. - The opponent wasn't "good enough" or the match wasn't high-level enough. On the flip side, the same fans don't seem to care at all whether BJJ people or wrestlers cross-train, whether their actual performance "looks" like their style, or which techniques they used to win. Again, confirmation bias all around.
  - e12e 8y ago
    Prison knife/shank fights/assassinations would probably be more relevant for "self defense" than any kind of regulated TV spectacle?
  - bane 8y ago
    All of human military history.
  - aikinai 8y ago
    I guess you could technically call MMA "no-holds-barred" since it allows grappling, but it still sets the rules at a certain threshold, and where you place that threshold will always determine the winning flavor of martial art. Gambler's point is that the MMA rules are set at a level heavily biased in favor of BJJ. If eye-gouging, ear-biting, headbutts, groin-tearing, etc. were allowed, most of BJJ's techniques would be rendered moot, just like allowing grappling obsoletes most of boxing's techniques.
    - rezz 8y ago
      “MMA rules are set at a level heavily biased in favor of BJJ” Completely not true. In the UFC if a person sits guard the standing practitioner can force the ref to stand the guard player up. (Heavily favors a striking based martial art). If there is a temporary lull in action on the ground the ref has the discretion to stand the fighters back up (also favors strikers) In the early days of the UFC headbutts were allowed so those didn’t really seem to get in the way (they are allowed and practiced in Sambo as well) and finally try to the gouge the eyes of a BJJ black belt (or blue belt for that matter). Bas Ruten actually answers this rebuttal hilariously in an interview I watched years ago. I’m confident krav-maga gurus would still get mollywhopped if the UFC completely threw out their rule book.
philwelch 8y ago
I think part of it may be because all traditional "martial arts" are, for the most part, obsolete. "Martial art" means "art", in the sense of craft, and "martial", in the sense of going to war. If you're going to war, being really good at punching and grappling is useless compared to being passable at those things but also having a rifle and knowing how to use it, especially in coordination with other riflemen or combined arms.
vinceguidry 8y ago
Following Eric Lowe on Quora for a long enough time has taught me that "real-world fighting effectiveness" is the biggest red herring there is when it comes to martial arts. You either come out of physical violence alive or you don't, and while training in empty-handed martial arts might save your life, training with a gun is the only realistic self-defense training worth doing. Except, you know, for confidence. And if it's confidence you're after, breaking hard metal files with your bare hands is hard to beat on that front. I really don't think hardly anybody in the developed world is ever going to face a true combat situation where they can actually use their empty-hand skills. It means they couldn't run away, lost their gun, and couldn't find a improvised weapon. The actual military doesn't train it any more other than for confidence. When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there. We did do bare-knuckle, few-rules sparring in Merpati Putih and it was legit my favorite thing to do. We hit and got hit hard, but I didn't get near the amount of sparring time I wanted. Even so, I'd have put my MP skills against anybody else's in a typical bar fight. Not now of course, those days are long long gone. My survival strategy these days is to de-escalate, and if that doesn't work, submit, and if that doesn't work, go momma bear and hope I survive.
- Balero 8y ago
  "You either come out of physical violence alive or you don't, and while training in empty-handed martial arts might save your life, training with a gun is the only realistic self-defense training worth doing." I disagree with this. It can certainly be true if you are in a situation where guns are common (eg. Texas). But the majority of people are in a situation where guns are not available. You should train with what you have available, and for self defense, with what you are likely to have in a normal day. Luckily for us where guns are not available, running away is the best option! "When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there." Whilst I don't 100% agree (I think training mma will help a bit), you bring up a really good point. That there is a huge difference to learning to fight for a competition, and learning to fight for self defense. And like you said, de-escalation, and situational awareness, are the best course of action.
pa7ch 8y ago
Much of martial arts pedagogy is not about fighting ability. I went to a very strenuous and traditional Tae Kwon Do school as a kid in a diverse semi low-income neighborhood. I had no delusions that it was teaching me how to fight well in MMA or a street fight. Situational awareness, lack of ego, and running are more important for self-defense anyway. I got into great shape, became flexible, learned body awareness (forms are good at this), breathing, and it really helped me develop a lot as a person and forever recognize the importance of physical health and humbleness. It was a very welcoming family environment with people from all ages and ethnicity and everyone had so much respect for each other. I still visit my master when I see my parents and its such a blessing. I come back nearly 15 years later and it feels frozen in time in the best way. I'm a little sad to see MMA gyms take over, but I think this school was a rarity even when I grew up. My master spent his entire life doing Judo and TKD and had 30+ years of experience in each. We sometimes practiced Tae Kwon Do the Sport. Its what you see in the Olympics. Its not about real fighting, its just a sport and a very small aspect of the rest of the training. The other bonus is you don't get CTE from practicing unlike MMA. (at more competitive levels knockouts do happen, but there is headgear and no head punching) Nothing has made me sadder moving to the software industry then how I let it sever my connection to physical arts. I'm not blaming the industry, it was my own time management and habits. Now, I saved enough to take a year off doing cheap travel in the US and I plan to spend a few months going back to my home gym. I feel so grateful.
- abledon 8y ago
  What stopped you from training after work or on weekends ?
  - pa7ch 8y ago
    Since I didn't exercise as much I focused on physical activities that require less commitment like hiking, rock climbing gyms, and the occasional yoga class. I just found having a full time job made it hard to get in consistent workouts that weren't just showing up to a gym. I had a work schedule that was shifted late for commute reasons so I found it hard to hit class times consistently. If I didn't eat enough that day I could still go to a gym and do a light workout. If I messed up my eating schedule and had to go to a intense class, that just wouldn't work out since I couldn't eat too soon before class or go when I hadn't eaten enough. I looked at jiu jitsu gyms since that's a consistent experience I enjoy and there are lots of gyms. Its pricing is kinda steep if your not committed to going a lot. I find that more traditional martial arts gyms really vary for me depending on the culture and instructor and haven't tried to shop around for those as much.
goldfeld 8y ago
Maybe to reap the benefit in actual fighting you have to be so good, so honed, so kung fu, so calm that most masters at such disciplines won't engage in "sparring" for modern superficial/individualistic reasons. The modern lifestyle and thinking also prevents practitioers to achieve such a level of focus, discipline and philosphical attainment, naturally. Especially something as deranged as UFC, I mean, really?
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  You don't do martial arts to fight. You do it for the calm, discipline, exercise, and opportunity to do cool stuff like when I got to break solid ceramic tiles with my bare hands. These are the only rational reasons. You'll maybe be in one or two violent situations in your whole life (maybe a few more if you don't know how to, ya know, run away from them) and it's a hundred to one that those situations will call for empty-handed fighting. Spending multiple hours a week training for something you have maybe one in a thousand chance of actually using productively isn't the smartest thing to do with your time. If you think you're doing anything more than staying in shape and building discipline, you're fooling yourself. This wasn't intended to be an argument, btw. Just hammering the point home for anyone else thinking empty-handed martial arts is a viable self-defense strategy.

gambler 8y ago

>See: 1993-1995 UFC competitions In a surprising turn of events, a tournament organized in large part as self-promotion by Gracie family "proven" the effectiveness of their martial art.

mr_overalls 8y ago
Please point me to any other relatively no-holds-barred type of contest that has "traditional" martial arts finishing strongly.
- gambler 8y ago
  This isn't how it works. If you don't have good evidence to support your claims, the onus is on you to find better evidence, not on everyone else to provide evidence to the contrary.
  - CodeAndCuffs 8y ago
    He did. He pointed to the largest and most viewed no-holds-barred event in the world. The reply implied that the UFC was not impartial. He asked for an alternate example. He literally gave reasonable evidence to support his claim. The reply made a conflicting claim with no evidence, OP simply, respectfully, asked for evidence. Yeah, the early UFCs were a commercial for the Gracie's BJJ, but there is no sign or credible claim that it was rigged. Royce Gracie won UFC 1, 2, and 4 over the course of 13 months. After that it was mainly wrestlers. This isn't antagonistic, I would also like to see if there was a similar competition where 'traditional' martial arts fared better.
    - mr_overalls 8y ago
      Exactly. And on a personal note, my early-1990s self would have _loved_ to have seen traditional martial artists clean up at MMA competitions. I was heavily into Tiger Style kung fu. But after getting my clock cleaned in a few friendly-ish matches with local boxers and judoka - and after seeing the same results with the far-superior practitioners in the early UFC - I was forced to admit that I had been absolutely wrong about the practicality of my art. My fellow kung fu practitioner (who participated in some of these matches) sparred a boxer, got destroyed, and said something along the lines of, "Yeah, I could totally pulled off some really sweet palm strikes if he hadn't kept punching me in the face for, like, the entire match." An art practiced in a live manner with a resisting opponent seems to _always_ be more effective in real life, even if it's somewhat handicapped by rules of sport. Specifically, about six months into studying judo (after switching from kung fu), I got into an altercation outside of a bar. A larger man threw a punch at me, and I instinctively clinched. I was scared shitless and exactly zero of the fancy kung fu techniques of the previous three years came to mind. Instead, the judo techniques I'd trained for much less time - but under conditions of resistance and fatigue - basically activated themselves and my panicked mind just observed as my body dropped the guy onto pavement with a simple drop-knee shoulder throw. Fight over. It remains one of the most important lessons I've learned about martial arts and the human mind in general: the unconscious mind is in control. And it's less flexible than the thinking mind, but when it's trained appropriately for the situation at hand, it will respond with a speed and certainty (especially when fueled with adrenaline) that feels preternatural.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - gambler 8y ago
      >He literally gave reasonable evidence to support his claim. The reply made a conflicting claim with no evidence If the ridiculously small sample size, questionable sampling technique and the fact that one of the participants was part of the school/family that organized the whole event doesn't disqualify early UFCs as "evidence" in your eyes, then it's pretty clear you are simply want to confirm your biases. >This isn't antagonistic, I would also like to see if there was a similar competition where 'traditional' martial arts fared better. What's stopping you? Search for "open martial arts tournament". Good luck verifying whether participants are actually proficient in the art they claim to represent, though.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  For awhile Thai-style kickboxing fighters with traditional training dominated in lighter weight classes. Took the MMA world a little while to catch up to them. Also, not "no holds barred," whatever that means, but you can call boxing a traditional martial art if not an Eastern one, and Floyd Mayweather absolutely dominated Conor McGregor in their one matchup. Naturally, Floyd would have gotten killed in an MMA match with McGregor, but that's another answer.
  - CodeAndCuffs 8y ago
    What? The UFC lightweight title (155) was first held by Jens Pulver (a wrestler/boxer) then Sean Sherk (wrestler) then Bj Penn until 2010 (BJJ prodigy) Every single UFC tournament has been won by wrestlers, sambo fighters, and bjj fighters, with the exception for UFC 3 where Steve Jennum (Ninjitsu) was an alternate and fought in the finals, where he won by a sloppy armbar. The upperweights are similar. Historically dominated by wrestlers and grapplers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions#Lightweight_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions#Lightwei...
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      This might have been pre-UFC. I'm paraphrasing off of a remembered Quora answer.
    - gambler 8y ago
      >Steve Jennum (Ninjitsu) was an alternate and fought in the finals, where he won by a sloppy armbar. Ever heard of confirmation bias? Well, you're engaging in it right now. If winning an early UFC is "evidence" of MA effectiveness (which I don't think it is) then Steve Jennum's victory should be accepted as "evidence" that Ninjitsu is effective. But you've just offhandedly dismissed it. This a common pattern. Often, when a practitioner of traditional martial arts wins an MMA fight of any sort, MMA fans proclaim it "doesn't count" because of one of the following: - It supposedly didn't look like their style of fighting. - They cross-trained in other martial arts. - The opponent wasn't "good enough" or the match wasn't high-level enough. On the flip side, the same fans don't seem to care at all whether BJJ people or wrestlers cross-train, whether their actual performance "looks" like their style, or which techniques they used to win. Again, confirmation bias all around.
- e12e 8y ago
  Prison knife/shank fights/assassinations would probably be more relevant for "self defense" than any kind of regulated TV spectacle?
- bane 8y ago
  All of human military history.
- aikinai 8y ago
  I guess you could technically call MMA "no-holds-barred" since it allows grappling, but it still sets the rules at a certain threshold, and where you place that threshold will always determine the winning flavor of martial art. Gambler's point is that the MMA rules are set at a level heavily biased in favor of BJJ. If eye-gouging, ear-biting, headbutts, groin-tearing, etc. were allowed, most of BJJ's techniques would be rendered moot, just like allowing grappling obsoletes most of boxing's techniques.
  - rezz 8y ago
    “MMA rules are set at a level heavily biased in favor of BJJ” Completely not true. In the UFC if a person sits guard the standing practitioner can force the ref to stand the guard player up. (Heavily favors a striking based martial art). If there is a temporary lull in action on the ground the ref has the discretion to stand the fighters back up (also favors strikers) In the early days of the UFC headbutts were allowed so those didn’t really seem to get in the way (they are allowed and practiced in Sambo as well) and finally try to the gouge the eyes of a BJJ black belt (or blue belt for that matter). Bas Ruten actually answers this rebuttal hilariously in an interview I watched years ago. I’m confident krav-maga gurus would still get mollywhopped if the UFC completely threw out their rule book.

philwelch 8y ago

I think part of it may be because all traditional "martial arts" are, for the most part, obsolete. "Martial art" means "art", in the sense of craft, and "martial", in the sense of going to war. If you're going to war, being really good at punching and grappling is useless compared to being passable at those things but also having a rifle and knowing how to use it, especially in coordination with other riflemen or combined arms.

vinceguidry 8y ago

Following Eric Lowe on Quora for a long enough time has taught me that "real-world fighting effectiveness" is the biggest red herring there is when it comes to martial arts. You either come out of physical violence alive or you don't, and while training in empty-handed martial arts might save your life, training with a gun is the only realistic self-defense training worth doing. Except, you know, for confidence. And if it's confidence you're after, breaking hard metal files with your bare hands is hard to beat on that front. I really don't think hardly anybody in the developed world is ever going to face a true combat situation where they can actually use their empty-hand skills. It means they couldn't run away, lost their gun, and couldn't find a improvised weapon. The actual military doesn't train it any more other than for confidence. When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there. We did do bare-knuckle, few-rules sparring in Merpati Putih and it was legit my favorite thing to do. We hit and got hit hard, but I didn't get near the amount of sparring time I wanted. Even so, I'd have put my MP skills against anybody else's in a typical bar fight. Not now of course, those days are long long gone. My survival strategy these days is to de-escalate, and if that doesn't work, submit, and if that doesn't work, go momma bear and hope I survive.

Balero 8y ago
"You either come out of physical violence alive or you don't, and while training in empty-handed martial arts might save your life, training with a gun is the only realistic self-defense training worth doing." I disagree with this. It can certainly be true if you are in a situation where guns are common (eg. Texas). But the majority of people are in a situation where guns are not available. You should train with what you have available, and for self defense, with what you are likely to have in a normal day. Luckily for us where guns are not available, running away is the best option! "When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there." Whilst I don't 100% agree (I think training mma will help a bit), you bring up a really good point. That there is a huge difference to learning to fight for a competition, and learning to fight for self defense. And like you said, de-escalation, and situational awareness, are the best course of action.

pa7ch 8y ago

Much of martial arts pedagogy is not about fighting ability. I went to a very strenuous and traditional Tae Kwon Do school as a kid in a diverse semi low-income neighborhood. I had no delusions that it was teaching me how to fight well in MMA or a street fight. Situational awareness, lack of ego, and running are more important for self-defense anyway. I got into great shape, became flexible, learned body awareness (forms are good at this), breathing, and it really helped me develop a lot as a person and forever recognize the importance of physical health and humbleness. It was a very welcoming family environment with people from all ages and ethnicity and everyone had so much respect for each other. I still visit my master when I see my parents and its such a blessing. I come back nearly 15 years later and it feels frozen in time in the best way. I'm a little sad to see MMA gyms take over, but I think this school was a rarity even when I grew up. My master spent his entire life doing Judo and TKD and had 30+ years of experience in each. We sometimes practiced Tae Kwon Do the Sport. Its what you see in the Olympics. Its not about real fighting, its just a sport and a very small aspect of the rest of the training. The other bonus is you don't get CTE from practicing unlike MMA. (at more competitive levels knockouts do happen, but there is headgear and no head punching) Nothing has made me sadder moving to the software industry then how I let it sever my connection to physical arts. I'm not blaming the industry, it was my own time management and habits. Now, I saved enough to take a year off doing cheap travel in the US and I plan to spend a few months going back to my home gym. I feel so grateful.

abledon 8y ago
What stopped you from training after work or on weekends ?
- pa7ch 8y ago
  Since I didn't exercise as much I focused on physical activities that require less commitment like hiking, rock climbing gyms, and the occasional yoga class. I just found having a full time job made it hard to get in consistent workouts that weren't just showing up to a gym. I had a work schedule that was shifted late for commute reasons so I found it hard to hit class times consistently. If I didn't eat enough that day I could still go to a gym and do a light workout. If I messed up my eating schedule and had to go to a intense class, that just wouldn't work out since I couldn't eat too soon before class or go when I hadn't eaten enough. I looked at jiu jitsu gyms since that's a consistent experience I enjoy and there are lots of gyms. Its pricing is kinda steep if your not committed to going a lot. I find that more traditional martial arts gyms really vary for me depending on the culture and instructor and haven't tried to shop around for those as much.

goldfeld 8y ago

Maybe to reap the benefit in actual fighting you have to be so good, so honed, so kung fu, so calm that most masters at such disciplines won't engage in "sparring" for modern superficial/individualistic reasons. The modern lifestyle and thinking also prevents practitioers to achieve such a level of focus, discipline and philosphical attainment, naturally. Especially something as deranged as UFC, I mean, really?

vinceguidry 8y ago
You don't do martial arts to fight. You do it for the calm, discipline, exercise, and opportunity to do cool stuff like when I got to break solid ceramic tiles with my bare hands. These are the only rational reasons. You'll maybe be in one or two violent situations in your whole life (maybe a few more if you don't know how to, ya know, run away from them) and it's a hundred to one that those situations will call for empty-handed fighting. Spending multiple hours a week training for something you have maybe one in a thousand chance of actually using productively isn't the smartest thing to do with your time. If you think you're doing anything more than staying in shape and building discipline, you're fooling yourself. This wasn't intended to be an argument, btw. Just hammering the point home for anyone else thinking empty-handed martial arts is a viable self-defense strategy.