5 ms·

- if they're willing + if they're willing and able FTFY

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Agreed. But this many Google employees acting collectively, including some very senior and long-tenured Googlers, meet that additional condition. (Disclosure: having worked at Google I know some names on that list personally, and respect them greatly. I haven't worked at Google since early 2015.)
- taude 8y ago
  But this was 139 out of 88K employees [1]. Doesn't seem like that many? How do we interpret the other 87K+? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-time-google-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-ti...
  - jkaplowitz 8y ago
    It's been a long time since my statistics and econometrics courses, but one conclusion that's definitely unwarranted would be to assume that the rest disagree with the signatories. People who speak up on an issue will always be a small fraction of the larger population of people who share the same opinion.
    - samstave 8y ago
      It would be really interesting stat to know how well heeled the 139 are vs the 88k who can afford to financially bacjk up their principles... Out of the 88k how many dont care, how many cant afford to care, how many are looking to profit off not caring.
    - nothrabannosir 8y ago
      People downthread have remarked on the lack of Chinese signatories, commenting on how the Chinese government tracks their citizens abroad. With ramifications for their family and friends as actual, real possibilities, according to some commenters. If that were true, then their silence can definitely not be construed as any kind of tacit agreement, or even disinterest. How many Chinese citizens (or people otherwise susceptible to this purported pressure) work at Google? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18543164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18543164
      - RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 8y ago
        While threats from the Chinese government may be valid, it's more likely that they don't want to / cannot risk their H-1B status or green card priority date. So their immediate threat is more likely (indirectly) coming from USG.
        rhizome 8y ago
        What is the risk, that their status would be changed in response to their involvement? If so, would there be an officially articulated basis?
        int_19h 8y ago
        They can get fired. If they're still an H-1B, that basically requires them to leave the country immediately. There's a short grace period in practice (usually, and this isn't official) if you have another job all lined up that is ready to sponsor you. But if you were an H-1B applying for a green card via your employer, this basically resets your position in line, unless you're in late stages of the process. And keep in mind that the wait is measured in years for many countries (e.g. for India, >9 years right now unless you're in the "exceptional" category).
        ardy42 8y ago
        > While threats from the Chinese government may be valid, it's more likely that they don't want to / cannot risk their H-1B status or green card priority date. So their immediate threat is more likely (indirectly) coming from USG. That doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't see why the USG would want to sanction them, especially since this letter has nothing to do with the USG. If they're discouraged from signing due to their US visa status, the mechanism that makes more sense is that they fear Google could fire them and it would take them longer than 60 days to line up another job that could sponsor them.
      - ardy42 8y ago
        > People downthread have remarked on the lack of Chinese signatories, commenting on how the Chinese government tracks their citizens abroad. With ramifications for their family and friends as actual, real possibilities, according to some commenters. Even as an American with no family in China, I'd be slightly worried that putting my name on such a list might prevent me from getting a visa to visit the PRC. They've shown a willingness to factor politics into visa decisions: https://www.ft.com/content/b1bd2aec-e333-11e8-8e70-5e22a430c1ad https://www.ft.com/content/b1bd2aec-e333-11e8-8e70-5e22a430c... That guy didn't even express a stance, like these Google employees have, he just happened to be the acting leader of the club when a speaker the PRC opposed was scheduled to give a talk.
  - alangibson 8y ago
    The activation energy to mobilize people is incredibly high, especially on issues that don't directly effect them. And even then it's still huge. People will always debate exactly why, but it does mean that the vast majority of people will remain mostly politically inert.
  - jimbokun 8y ago
    So far.
  - rhacker 8y ago
    Yet 1 person in that company could kill it in 3 seconds even if this didn't happen. That's 1 in 88K. My wife and I once went around and petitioned all 100 people that lived in a condo complex for a specific issue. About 80 people signed. We didn't even need to present the signature sheet - the one hold out on the board we had to convince had caved after learning about the efforts - not knowing the percentage of signers (only we had the number).
    - taude 8y ago
      I'm more thinking from the side of all the other employees who either don't care, or have different perspetives on how well the Chinese government might or might not be doing with their tactics. I find the public internet form, especially sites like HN don't promote as much discussion from all angles as we think. I'm sure that anyone from Google who spoke up for moving into China would absolutely be skewered on here. Yet, I know they exist.
  - dylan604 8y ago
    There's some statistic that says if one person is willing to speak out, then there's X number of people that agree but are unwilling to speak out. Don't know the accuracy of that, but I've taken it to heart and have been willing to be one of the first to speak out on multiple occasions at multiple jobs. Sometimes things change for the better. Sometimes things don't change, and I force a change by leaving. If nobody speaks up, then the status quo wins.
    - ardy42 8y ago
      > There's some statistic that says if one person is willing to speak out, then there's X number of people that agree but are unwilling to speak out. I've heard this before. I'm not sure if it's a statistic or just a saying. What's the standard formulation?
      - dylan604 8y ago
        I could see it being considered both. I've also heard it applied to congress critters and senators. For every person that contacts them, they equate it to equaling a certain percentage of the people they represent. I've heard the weight of a phone call vs hand written letter vs email are different, but that was some time ago. It makes sense that when a small number/percentage of the people make contact out of a group in the thousands that some sort of statistical method would be used. These representatives should pay more attention the people as that is who puts them in their job. It doesn't really apply to corporations as they will just replace the squeaky wheels even if it's not the best thing to do morally/socially. They only care about this quarter's earnings. It's the rare company that will fix the squeak rather than replacing it, and they should be highlighted when it happens.
  - kbuchanan 8y ago
    See Nassim Taleb's minority rule: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
alangibson 8y ago
I think I covered ableness in the second paragraph. For a large and growing number of people in the US, taking on that fight could easily mean homelessness. I don't hardly consider them able on grounds of self preservation.

Agreed. But this many Google employees acting collectively, including some very senior and long-tenured Googlers, meet that additional condition. (Disclosure: having worked at Google I know some names on that list personally, and respect them greatly. I haven't worked at Google since early 2015.)

taude 8y ago
But this was 139 out of 88K employees [1]. Doesn't seem like that many? How do we interpret the other 87K+? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-time-google-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-ti...
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  It's been a long time since my statistics and econometrics courses, but one conclusion that's definitely unwarranted would be to assume that the rest disagree with the signatories. People who speak up on an issue will always be a small fraction of the larger population of people who share the same opinion.
  - samstave 8y ago
    It would be really interesting stat to know how well heeled the 139 are vs the 88k who can afford to financially bacjk up their principles... Out of the 88k how many dont care, how many cant afford to care, how many are looking to profit off not caring.
  - nothrabannosir 8y ago
    People downthread have remarked on the lack of Chinese signatories, commenting on how the Chinese government tracks their citizens abroad. With ramifications for their family and friends as actual, real possibilities, according to some commenters. If that were true, then their silence can definitely not be construed as any kind of tacit agreement, or even disinterest. How many Chinese citizens (or people otherwise susceptible to this purported pressure) work at Google? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18543164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18543164
    - RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 8y ago
      While threats from the Chinese government may be valid, it's more likely that they don't want to / cannot risk their H-1B status or green card priority date. So their immediate threat is more likely (indirectly) coming from USG.
      - rhizome 8y ago
        What is the risk, that their status would be changed in response to their involvement? If so, would there be an officially articulated basis?
        int_19h 8y ago
        They can get fired. If they're still an H-1B, that basically requires them to leave the country immediately. There's a short grace period in practice (usually, and this isn't official) if you have another job all lined up that is ready to sponsor you. But if you were an H-1B applying for a green card via your employer, this basically resets your position in line, unless you're in late stages of the process. And keep in mind that the wait is measured in years for many countries (e.g. for India, >9 years right now unless you're in the "exceptional" category).
      - ardy42 8y ago
        > While threats from the Chinese government may be valid, it's more likely that they don't want to / cannot risk their H-1B status or green card priority date. So their immediate threat is more likely (indirectly) coming from USG. That doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't see why the USG would want to sanction them, especially since this letter has nothing to do with the USG. If they're discouraged from signing due to their US visa status, the mechanism that makes more sense is that they fear Google could fire them and it would take them longer than 60 days to line up another job that could sponsor them.
    - ardy42 8y ago
      > People downthread have remarked on the lack of Chinese signatories, commenting on how the Chinese government tracks their citizens abroad. With ramifications for their family and friends as actual, real possibilities, according to some commenters. Even as an American with no family in China, I'd be slightly worried that putting my name on such a list might prevent me from getting a visa to visit the PRC. They've shown a willingness to factor politics into visa decisions: https://www.ft.com/content/b1bd2aec-e333-11e8-8e70-5e22a430c1ad https://www.ft.com/content/b1bd2aec-e333-11e8-8e70-5e22a430c... That guy didn't even express a stance, like these Google employees have, he just happened to be the acting leader of the club when a speaker the PRC opposed was scheduled to give a talk.
- alangibson 8y ago
  The activation energy to mobilize people is incredibly high, especially on issues that don't directly effect them. And even then it's still huge. People will always debate exactly why, but it does mean that the vast majority of people will remain mostly politically inert.
- jimbokun 8y ago
  So far.
- rhacker 8y ago
  Yet 1 person in that company could kill it in 3 seconds even if this didn't happen. That's 1 in 88K. My wife and I once went around and petitioned all 100 people that lived in a condo complex for a specific issue. About 80 people signed. We didn't even need to present the signature sheet - the one hold out on the board we had to convince had caved after learning about the efforts - not knowing the percentage of signers (only we had the number).
  - taude 8y ago
    I'm more thinking from the side of all the other employees who either don't care, or have different perspetives on how well the Chinese government might or might not be doing with their tactics. I find the public internet form, especially sites like HN don't promote as much discussion from all angles as we think. I'm sure that anyone from Google who spoke up for moving into China would absolutely be skewered on here. Yet, I know they exist.
- dylan604 8y ago
  There's some statistic that says if one person is willing to speak out, then there's X number of people that agree but are unwilling to speak out. Don't know the accuracy of that, but I've taken it to heart and have been willing to be one of the first to speak out on multiple occasions at multiple jobs. Sometimes things change for the better. Sometimes things don't change, and I force a change by leaving. If nobody speaks up, then the status quo wins.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > There's some statistic that says if one person is willing to speak out, then there's X number of people that agree but are unwilling to speak out. I've heard this before. I'm not sure if it's a statistic or just a saying. What's the standard formulation?
    - dylan604 8y ago
      I could see it being considered both. I've also heard it applied to congress critters and senators. For every person that contacts them, they equate it to equaling a certain percentage of the people they represent. I've heard the weight of a phone call vs hand written letter vs email are different, but that was some time ago. It makes sense that when a small number/percentage of the people make contact out of a group in the thousands that some sort of statistical method would be used. These representatives should pay more attention the people as that is who puts them in their job. It doesn't really apply to corporations as they will just replace the squeaky wheels even if it's not the best thing to do morally/socially. They only care about this quarter's earnings. It's the rare company that will fix the squeak rather than replacing it, and they should be highlighted when it happens.
- kbuchanan 8y ago
  See Nassim Taleb's minority rule: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

alangibson 8y ago

I think I covered ableness in the second paragraph. For a large and growing number of people in the US, taking on that fight could easily mean homelessness. I don't hardly consider them able on grounds of self preservation.