11 ms·

Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple

98 points by jonnybgood 8y ago

david_shaw 8y ago
> I put years of effort into learning Shaolin kung fu and understanding its culture, but no, I was definitely not waking up at 4:30 AM in the barracks each morning for a jog up the mountain. Really? The author learned Chinese, studied kung fu for years, then traveled to China to train -- only to decide that getting up early was simply too much effort? I found this article informative (if someone erratic), but this part truly baffled me. Still, it's very interesting that a fifth century temple is still operating -- and making money! -- today.
- com2kid 8y ago
  Especially considering that early morning workouts are not all that uncommon in the hardcore American fitness community... Heck lots of celebrities get up at that time to do physical training for conditioning for movie roles. I also want to know the material of that glass and needle... NM, yt vid of an American magician doing it. https://youtu.be/F7268AaP9Ok?t=98 https://youtu.be/F7268AaP9Ok?t=98
  - mikestew 8y ago
    Kind of my first thought, and why it seemed out of character with the rest. Because it isn't uncommon for me to get up an hour later at 5:30 to go for a run, and I'm friggin' lazy. Learn a new language and travel to a foreign country? Hell, yeah, I'll go to bed an hour earlier for that morning run.
  - irrational 8y ago
    I saw a video the other day with Mark Wahlberg's daily schedule. The dude goes to bed at 7:30pm and gets up at 2:30 am to workout. That's insane!
- girzel 8y ago
  The writing is a little ambiguous, but I read that more as saying that, as a foreigner, he simply wasn't part of the "real monks'" training regimen. He doesn't say if he tried to get in and wasn't welcome, or preferred to stay on the tourist side of things, but I didn't interpret it as saying that _because_ of the early wakeup times, he wasn't doing the real training.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- dssu 8y ago
  Waking up early is just the beginning. There are also heavy chore responsibilities, 10+ hr full day of training, frequent beatings. And the physical disciplinary punishments are brutal. Oh and you have to keep this up for 5-10 years. Very reasonable to see why someone would not want to commit to this. Many of the warrior monks were trained as very young children so they had not much say in the situation and just had to deal with it.
  - hangonhn 8y ago
    The literal translation of "kung fu" means skill through effort. In fact in some parts of China, the words "kung fu" is used to mean skill in general. To say a practitioner of some art has "no kung fu" means he or she is lacking in practice/skill. The more correct term for Chinese martial arts is "wu shu" -- "military/martial" and "art". This idea of skill through practice is one of those values that I am very grateful for because it was sort of drilled into my head at an early age and has been enormous beneficial to me throughout my life. It's become more valuable now that I'm older and don't absorb new information as quickly or easily.
    - kinleyd 8y ago
      Thanks. "Skill through effort" is wonderfully worded - a perfect value to pass on to the young ones.
  - scythe 8y ago
    Tõzan came to study with Unmon. Unmon asked, "Where are you from?" "From Sato," Tõzan replied. "Where were you during the summer?" "Well, I was at the monastery of Hõzu, south of the lake." "When did you leave there," Unmon asked. "On August 25" was Tõzan's reply. "I spare you sixty blows," Unmon said. The next day Tõzan came to Unmon and said, "Yesterday you said you spared me sixty blows. I beg to ask you, where was I at fault?" "Oh, you rice bag!" shouted Unmon. "What makes you wander about, now west of the river, now south of the lake?" Tõzan thereupon came to a mighty enlightenment experience.
    - diegoperini 8y ago
- nabla9 8y ago
  Especially when "kung fu" literally means something like "skill from effort" (as opposite of magic, praying, good genes etc). Kung = skillful work or hard training, Fu = time spent. It's mean pushing yourself to improve. If we can trust Wikipedia: > In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any discipline or skill achieved through hard work and practice, not necessarily martial arts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)
  - hangonhn 8y ago
    I can verify that as the correct translation and people in fact do use "kung fu" to mean a skill or an art you achieve through practice. In the part of China where my family is from, people do say "have no kung fu" to mean some practitioner is bad at what he or she does.
    - bfung 8y ago
      Another common usage is like with cooks - they're cooking, say, some dish with a wok start tossing it - it's good "cooking" kung fu. ex: https://youtu.be/yKvTC_N23gs?t=23 https://youtu.be/yKvTC_N23gs?t=23
- avip 8y ago
  I read it as he was not invited. Some shrines in Asia have an "open zone", where people can hang out, take photos, etc. Then there's an inner zone for real devotees who live there, which the others cannot enter (not saying this is the case with Shaulin but it well could be).
- watwut 8y ago
  The difference was not just waking up in the morning. It is also "foreign students come out in the afternoon". It makes sense to me. Going easier foreigner program was the plan the whole time. Just because you put a lot into training and commitment does not mean there is no line and you will put in infinite amount of all that. He wanted quality training, he did not wanted to become lifetime monk.
projectramo 8y ago
The myth of Shaolin temple just reminds me of how my values have changed. As a kid, my dream come true would have been to have been locked away doing nothing but martial arts training for years till I emerged a fighting machine who could win any fight. As I grew up, I realize what a total waste of time and life that would have been. Far better to learn to read and write, or even dance (college I guess). Those skills make me far happier. Yet, as a kid, it felt awful to have to go to school rather than spend my time in Shao Lin.
- tdb7893 8y ago
  Haha I had the opposite experience. Growing up I always liked math, science, and programming but more and more I wish I could just spend all my time doing martial arts.
  - dorchadas 8y ago
    Same. The older I get the more I wish I could just spend my time learning to control my body and doing martial arts and such. It'd be so much more fun.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      I still hold a bit of the childish passion in even at forty. I just like moving a lot and doing things minimalistically (is that a term ?). Monk life is neat IMO to an extent.
      - dorchadas 8y ago
        It's weird, as I'd absolutely love to live as a monk full time. The training, the studying, everything about it. Like, if I ever reach financial independence and don't get married/have kids...that's definitely what I'm going to be aiming for.
    - rv-de 8y ago
      The question is why martial arts for learning to control your body?
lebowski_2020 8y ago
Hugged to sleep... Anyone have a mirror?
- zackb 8y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20181127073257/https://radiichina.com/fact-vs-fiction-truths-from-inside-the-shaolin-temple/ https://web.archive.org/web/20181127073257/https://radiichin...
vinceguidry 8y ago
Ancient Eastern traditional martial arts disciplines can be really amazing. I used to take Merpati Putih, a form of Indonesian silat, from a couple of brothers in Ogden, Utah, like 13 years ago. Within six months I was breaking solid ceramic tiles and hard metal files with my bare hands. I gave up a really solid MMA gym to go train with these guys. The human body is capable of really amazing things, and schools like this have been honing their pedagogy for thousands of years. If only Westerners weren't so darn skeptical about everything, then we'd have way more of that sort of thing over here.
- Balero 8y ago
  Modern mma has a focus on fighting and not on displays. So it's really no surprise that you got good at a new discipline when you practiced it. It's really just a matter of what you are aiming for. I think the skepticism is pretty rational. There are plenty of people who talk about a bunch of rubbish that makes them invincible. Things have really got to be tried to be prove, you gotta walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Modern martial arts has a great history of taking things that weren't initially thought to work, such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Judo etc, very seriously when they are proven to work.
- markdown 8y ago
  > If only Westerners weren't so darn skeptical about everything. The Chinese have become skeptical as well . https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2119375/nobody-kung-fu-fighting-chinese-martial-artists-ordered-stop https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2119375/nobo...
  - bllguo 8y ago
    yeah in terms of the merits in actual combat, MMA has been proven superior. I read OP to be referring more to the values, lifestyle, discipline, etc. espoused by those ancient traditions, though. Now I'm not sure if that was OP's intent, but I think that's a more interesting discussion than which martial art beats another.
    - 8y ago
forkLding 8y ago
The Shaolin monk livestreaming reminds me of that time I saw Tibetan lamas playing basketball on their basketball courts and I realized how close-minded I was.
madeuptempacct 8y ago
I would love to see accurate cancer, arthritis, and ligament injury rates for shaolin monk. If they are lower than the general, fit population, they are on to something.
- abledon 8y ago
  Maybe some clever Chinese professor can Trojan horse a study in under the guise Of Chinese nationalism with the objective to increase their nations pride in the ancient arts devised by the monks thousands of years in the making /end dream .
zanethomas 8y ago
After many years of training martial arts I visited Shao Lin a while back. It struck me as being the Disneyland of Martial Arts. The needle-through glass trick is just that, a carnival trick. More serious training can be had at Wu Dang.
muktaakash 8y ago
Self discipline,training, meditation and concentration. All it needs to learn in the monastery. It is not about to attack, fight and incapacitated someone else at first;but believing in self control to withstand all assault, violation and adversities till a point of justifiable limit with non violent means, if not successful - invoking the skill and period.
- aryamaan 8y ago
  Pardon if it sounds like a naive question. But when you are in a monastery-- which sounds like a controlled environment-- I get a feeling that you are not interacting with all those grieves like rejections, loss of loved ones and other mental conflicts, struggles one goes through in this materialistic life. Albeit they include artificial such scenarios by having a very rigid environment which is stressful and one has to learn to adapt to it. So, practicing being calm there, I am not sure how that will translate to "the real world". Would really like to know about stories of people who practiced such things in their childhood or for a long period and how they are faring post that.
lenepp 8y ago
"it also holds onto a significant amount of kung fu tradition" There is a huge political controversy in the kung fu world that this article doesn't address, which is the Chinese government's perceived hostility to the idea of letting its citizens train to really fight, for pretty obvious ideological reasons. Essentially, the claim you will hear from some Chinese masters (often part of the diaspora) is that while the Communists discovered that the veneration of martial arts was too deeply engrained in the culture to eradicate, they could transform people's idea of martial arts itself into something more like dance or a gymnastic performance. They did this through the creation and control of various wushu institutions and the transformation of the Shaolin Temple into a training ground for a performance troupe (I said it's a controversial view). In particular, according to this view, the ancient legends associated with the Shaolin temple allowed the government to create something totally new, that people would nonetheless perceive as part of an old "kung fu tradition." There's only one really good, trustworthy book out there (that I know of) on the Shaolin temple. It's called The Shaolin Monastery, and it's by a professor of East Asian Studies named Meir Shahar. Definitely worth a read if you're interested in learning more.
leroy_masochist 8y ago
TLDR: Wu-Tang Clan mentioned zero times, do not recommend.
abledon 8y ago
If anyone’s interested there’s a fascinating YouTube video of a guy called peng her demonstrating qigong, a Shaolin monk practice, by increasing activity in his brain regions: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHTvUdi5LwY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHTvUdi5LwY To dream of a day when a society of humans all have such capability!
- lihaciudaniel 8y ago
  Not really. A monk shouldn't reveal to a layperson or even be proud of enlightenment achievements beetween monks.

98 points by jonnybgood 8y ago

> I put years of effort into learning Shaolin kung fu and understanding its culture, but no, I was definitely not waking up at 4:30 AM in the barracks each morning for a jog up the mountain. Really? The author learned Chinese, studied kung fu for years, then traveled to China to train -- only to decide that getting up early was simply too much effort? I found this article informative (if someone erratic), but this part truly baffled me. Still, it's very interesting that a fifth century temple is still operating -- and making money! -- today.

com2kid 8y ago
Especially considering that early morning workouts are not all that uncommon in the hardcore American fitness community... Heck lots of celebrities get up at that time to do physical training for conditioning for movie roles. I also want to know the material of that glass and needle... NM, yt vid of an American magician doing it. https://youtu.be/F7268AaP9Ok?t=98 https://youtu.be/F7268AaP9Ok?t=98
- mikestew 8y ago
  Kind of my first thought, and why it seemed out of character with the rest. Because it isn't uncommon for me to get up an hour later at 5:30 to go for a run, and I'm friggin' lazy. Learn a new language and travel to a foreign country? Hell, yeah, I'll go to bed an hour earlier for that morning run.
- irrational 8y ago
  I saw a video the other day with Mark Wahlberg's daily schedule. The dude goes to bed at 7:30pm and gets up at 2:30 am to workout. That's insane!
girzel 8y ago
The writing is a little ambiguous, but I read that more as saying that, as a foreigner, he simply wasn't part of the "real monks'" training regimen. He doesn't say if he tried to get in and wasn't welcome, or preferred to stay on the tourist side of things, but I didn't interpret it as saying that _because_ of the early wakeup times, he wasn't doing the real training.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
dssu 8y ago
Waking up early is just the beginning. There are also heavy chore responsibilities, 10+ hr full day of training, frequent beatings. And the physical disciplinary punishments are brutal. Oh and you have to keep this up for 5-10 years. Very reasonable to see why someone would not want to commit to this. Many of the warrior monks were trained as very young children so they had not much say in the situation and just had to deal with it.
- hangonhn 8y ago
  The literal translation of "kung fu" means skill through effort. In fact in some parts of China, the words "kung fu" is used to mean skill in general. To say a practitioner of some art has "no kung fu" means he or she is lacking in practice/skill. The more correct term for Chinese martial arts is "wu shu" -- "military/martial" and "art". This idea of skill through practice is one of those values that I am very grateful for because it was sort of drilled into my head at an early age and has been enormous beneficial to me throughout my life. It's become more valuable now that I'm older and don't absorb new information as quickly or easily.
  - kinleyd 8y ago
    Thanks. "Skill through effort" is wonderfully worded - a perfect value to pass on to the young ones.
- scythe 8y ago
  Tõzan came to study with Unmon. Unmon asked, "Where are you from?" "From Sato," Tõzan replied. "Where were you during the summer?" "Well, I was at the monastery of Hõzu, south of the lake." "When did you leave there," Unmon asked. "On August 25" was Tõzan's reply. "I spare you sixty blows," Unmon said. The next day Tõzan came to Unmon and said, "Yesterday you said you spared me sixty blows. I beg to ask you, where was I at fault?" "Oh, you rice bag!" shouted Unmon. "What makes you wander about, now west of the river, now south of the lake?" Tõzan thereupon came to a mighty enlightenment experience.
  - diegoperini 8y ago
nabla9 8y ago
Especially when "kung fu" literally means something like "skill from effort" (as opposite of magic, praying, good genes etc). Kung = skillful work or hard training, Fu = time spent. It's mean pushing yourself to improve. If we can trust Wikipedia: > In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any discipline or skill achieved through hard work and practice, not necessarily martial arts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)
- hangonhn 8y ago
  I can verify that as the correct translation and people in fact do use "kung fu" to mean a skill or an art you achieve through practice. In the part of China where my family is from, people do say "have no kung fu" to mean some practitioner is bad at what he or she does.
  - bfung 8y ago
    Another common usage is like with cooks - they're cooking, say, some dish with a wok start tossing it - it's good "cooking" kung fu. ex: https://youtu.be/yKvTC_N23gs?t=23 https://youtu.be/yKvTC_N23gs?t=23
avip 8y ago
I read it as he was not invited. Some shrines in Asia have an "open zone", where people can hang out, take photos, etc. Then there's an inner zone for real devotees who live there, which the others cannot enter (not saying this is the case with Shaulin but it well could be).
watwut 8y ago
The difference was not just waking up in the morning. It is also "foreign students come out in the afternoon". It makes sense to me. Going easier foreigner program was the plan the whole time. Just because you put a lot into training and commitment does not mean there is no line and you will put in infinite amount of all that. He wanted quality training, he did not wanted to become lifetime monk.

projectramo 8y ago

The myth of Shaolin temple just reminds me of how my values have changed. As a kid, my dream come true would have been to have been locked away doing nothing but martial arts training for years till I emerged a fighting machine who could win any fight. As I grew up, I realize what a total waste of time and life that would have been. Far better to learn to read and write, or even dance (college I guess). Those skills make me far happier. Yet, as a kid, it felt awful to have to go to school rather than spend my time in Shao Lin.

tdb7893 8y ago
Haha I had the opposite experience. Growing up I always liked math, science, and programming but more and more I wish I could just spend all my time doing martial arts.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  Same. The older I get the more I wish I could just spend my time learning to control my body and doing martial arts and such. It'd be so much more fun.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    I still hold a bit of the childish passion in even at forty. I just like moving a lot and doing things minimalistically (is that a term ?). Monk life is neat IMO to an extent.
    - dorchadas 8y ago
      It's weird, as I'd absolutely love to live as a monk full time. The training, the studying, everything about it. Like, if I ever reach financial independence and don't get married/have kids...that's definitely what I'm going to be aiming for.
  - rv-de 8y ago
    The question is why martial arts for learning to control your body?

lebowski_2020 8y ago

Hugged to sleep... Anyone have a mirror?

zackb 8y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20181127073257/https://radiichina.com/fact-vs-fiction-truths-from-inside-the-shaolin-temple/ https://web.archive.org/web/20181127073257/https://radiichin...

vinceguidry 8y ago

Ancient Eastern traditional martial arts disciplines can be really amazing. I used to take Merpati Putih, a form of Indonesian silat, from a couple of brothers in Ogden, Utah, like 13 years ago. Within six months I was breaking solid ceramic tiles and hard metal files with my bare hands. I gave up a really solid MMA gym to go train with these guys. The human body is capable of really amazing things, and schools like this have been honing their pedagogy for thousands of years. If only Westerners weren't so darn skeptical about everything, then we'd have way more of that sort of thing over here.

Balero 8y ago
Modern mma has a focus on fighting and not on displays. So it's really no surprise that you got good at a new discipline when you practiced it. It's really just a matter of what you are aiming for. I think the skepticism is pretty rational. There are plenty of people who talk about a bunch of rubbish that makes them invincible. Things have really got to be tried to be prove, you gotta walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Modern martial arts has a great history of taking things that weren't initially thought to work, such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Judo etc, very seriously when they are proven to work.
markdown 8y ago
> If only Westerners weren't so darn skeptical about everything. The Chinese have become skeptical as well . https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2119375/nobody-kung-fu-fighting-chinese-martial-artists-ordered-stop https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2119375/nobo...
- bllguo 8y ago
  yeah in terms of the merits in actual combat, MMA has been proven superior. I read OP to be referring more to the values, lifestyle, discipline, etc. espoused by those ancient traditions, though. Now I'm not sure if that was OP's intent, but I think that's a more interesting discussion than which martial art beats another.
  - 8y ago

forkLding 8y ago

The Shaolin monk livestreaming reminds me of that time I saw Tibetan lamas playing basketball on their basketball courts and I realized how close-minded I was.

madeuptempacct 8y ago

I would love to see accurate cancer, arthritis, and ligament injury rates for shaolin monk. If they are lower than the general, fit population, they are on to something.

abledon 8y ago
Maybe some clever Chinese professor can Trojan horse a study in under the guise Of Chinese nationalism with the objective to increase their nations pride in the ancient arts devised by the monks thousands of years in the making /end dream .

zanethomas 8y ago

After many years of training martial arts I visited Shao Lin a while back. It struck me as being the Disneyland of Martial Arts. The needle-through glass trick is just that, a carnival trick. More serious training can be had at Wu Dang.

muktaakash 8y ago

Self discipline,training, meditation and concentration. All it needs to learn in the monastery. It is not about to attack, fight and incapacitated someone else at first;but believing in self control to withstand all assault, violation and adversities till a point of justifiable limit with non violent means, if not successful - invoking the skill and period.

aryamaan 8y ago
Pardon if it sounds like a naive question. But when you are in a monastery-- which sounds like a controlled environment-- I get a feeling that you are not interacting with all those grieves like rejections, loss of loved ones and other mental conflicts, struggles one goes through in this materialistic life. Albeit they include artificial such scenarios by having a very rigid environment which is stressful and one has to learn to adapt to it. So, practicing being calm there, I am not sure how that will translate to "the real world". Would really like to know about stories of people who practiced such things in their childhood or for a long period and how they are faring post that.

lenepp 8y ago

"it also holds onto a significant amount of kung fu tradition" There is a huge political controversy in the kung fu world that this article doesn't address, which is the Chinese government's perceived hostility to the idea of letting its citizens train to really fight, for pretty obvious ideological reasons. Essentially, the claim you will hear from some Chinese masters (often part of the diaspora) is that while the Communists discovered that the veneration of martial arts was too deeply engrained in the culture to eradicate, they could transform people's idea of martial arts itself into something more like dance or a gymnastic performance. They did this through the creation and control of various wushu institutions and the transformation of the Shaolin Temple into a training ground for a performance troupe (I said it's a controversial view). In particular, according to this view, the ancient legends associated with the Shaolin temple allowed the government to create something totally new, that people would nonetheless perceive as part of an old "kung fu tradition." There's only one really good, trustworthy book out there (that I know of) on the Shaolin temple. It's called The Shaolin Monastery, and it's by a professor of East Asian Studies named Meir Shahar. Definitely worth a read if you're interested in learning more.

leroy_masochist 8y ago

TLDR: Wu-Tang Clan mentioned zero times, do not recommend.

abledon 8y ago

If anyone’s interested there’s a fascinating YouTube video of a guy called peng her demonstrating qigong, a Shaolin monk practice, by increasing activity in his brain regions: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHTvUdi5LwY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHTvUdi5LwY To dream of a day when a society of humans all have such capability!

lihaciudaniel 8y ago
Not really. A monk shouldn't reveal to a layperson or even be proud of enlightenment achievements beetween monks.