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The number of SUVs and pickups sold in the US shows that gasoline is way too cheap there. Sure, a select few, maybe even a more significant portion, use pickups

The number of SUVs and pickups sold in the US shows that gasoline is way too cheap there. Sure, a select few, maybe even a more significant portion, use pickups for work. But the SUVs are simply a waste, weighing several hundred kg more than necessary to do the job and less aerodynamic than a normal car. And I'm pretty sure a lot of the pickup owners use them mainly because of their image. I rarely see tradesmen in pickups here, stuff like VW Caddy is really popular though. Very few people actually need an SUV. They like being in this large heavy thing because they feel safer and see further, so they buy it instead of a station wagon. If fuel was more reasonable priced to better reflect the external cost they would have to decide if the added cost of driving an unnecessarily thirsty vehicle was worth it. Meanwhile the last time we had as much CO2 in the atmosphere as we have now were several million years ago, with sea levels about ten meters higher than they are now, we have severe droughts, wildfires, melting polar ice, rapidly diminishing glaciers, melting permafrost, and so on. And the American people not only elects a president that doesn't even believe the white house commissioned climate report, they continue to buy large vehicles that burn too much fuel. I'm pretty sure we will see more and more conflicts and climate refugees in our lifetime when people are driven from their land by floods, droughts, or similar. https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

joe_the_user 8y ago
There's no way to make gas expensive enough that the wealthy are deterred from buying gas guzzlers but the poor are able to drive something (and thus get to work, etc). When you have some groups with far more income and wealth than others, controlling behavior with taxes becomes difficult to impossible. The only way to achieve fuel economy in American cars is by regulation.
- adrianN 8y ago
  It would already help if 80% of the people who now choose an SUV would choose a small car.
- kenhwang 8y ago
  The obvious solution is to tax automakers based on their overall fuel economy instead of breakout by cars/trucks. The problem is that it pretty much kills the US auto industry since they're almost always the least fuel efficient in every segment and bias heavily towards making large vehicles.
  - joe_the_user 8y ago
    The regulatory system that was in place, a requirement that automakers increase the average fuel economy on their vehicles, worked for the last forty in that fuel economy rating steadily increased. The requirements could and probably should have been tweaked early to apply to all sold to be used as personal transportation - ie, everything but actual work trucks.
whalesalad 8y ago
Cars aren’t the primary green house gas issue. Animal agriculture and energy are. Plus, America only accounts for about 15% of greenhouse gas emissions. So even if all of us hedonistic Americans drove tiny little cars the current global warming trend would continue. You make decent arguments but the fact of the matter is it’s a drop in the bucket.
- prawn 8y ago
  Were they advocating for "tiny little cars" or just suggesting something more appropriately sized for a subset of people? Ideally, people would have easier access to a certain type of car when they needed it, rather than buying that type of car for all activities so they felt prepared.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  15% is huge. 1 in every seven tons of GHG is from a single country? That’s wild. China is as bad. But neither are ‘only’.
  - sorenjan 8y ago
    I actually find it a bit sickening when I hear people like Trump say that they don't want to stop polluting because China is polluting, and increasingly so. China have more than four times as many inhabitants, most of them live nowhere close the same lifestyle as the average or even most of the poorest Americans (or Europeans, I'm not putting all the blame on the US). A lot of western manufacturing is outsourced to countries like China, meaning that some of their pollution is actually ours. We in the west have also had a lot of time building our economy using fossil fuel, so we have a pretty significant climate debt. But the argument "others do it too" isn't a valid argument.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- sorenjan 8y ago
  Transportation accounts for 28% of USA's greenhouse gas emissions. And the point is that instead of increasing your carbon footprint because other sources are greater, you should try to decrease it. Of course there are other issues of equal or greater importance, like mass consumption of cheap stuff manufactured in Asia and transported around the world, but choosing a Ford Explorer instead of a Ford Focus doesn't exactly help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_th...
eigenvector 8y ago
Even within the limited segment that does actually 'need' a truck, American trucks are unnecessarily large. I drive a pickup every day at work, I was still shocked when I went to Texas seeing a half-ton pickup truck be the default vehicle everywhere. The Toyota Hilux, probably the most common working pickup truck in the world, would look like a toy in a suburban American mall parking lot.
- NegativeLatency 8y ago
  You can thank the US government for that. :/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- rasz 8y ago
  Eighties-nineties Toyota Hilux maybe, those do look like toys compared to 2018 model. Modern Hilux is just as fat as any other US truck.
- anfilt 8y ago
  I really hate how big trucks are in the US. I wish there were something slightly bigger than a Kei truck. I would really like a something like that.
  - thrower123 8y ago
    Blame emissions standards. They effectively killed everything in the Ford Ranger, Chevy S10 size range, and pushed the survivors up into the size parameters of what an 80s or 90s half-ton pickup used to be, if perhaps not the weight, due to steel vs aluminium/plastic construction. Notably, modern Toyota Tacomas dwarf their predecessors.
_cs2017_ 8y ago
> Very few people actually need an SUV Only in the sense that no one needs good food, fashionable clothes, entertainment, cool gadgets, large houses, etc. Take it away from them, and you'll find yourself a very unpopular leader. If you prefer to be one with nature, go ahead, there's still plenty of places where you can do that. It's not something most people will choose though.
- sorenjan 8y ago
  I'm not talking about leadership, I'm talking about culture, morals, and personal accountability. People are making the wrong choice, and it's selfish. There's a middle ground between being one with nature and driving a 4x4 between the suburb and the city. Much of the other things you describe as necessities to be happy with your leadership are also big problems. Overconsumption of clothes, meat, gadgets, too big houses, etc. Overshoot day took place on August 1 this year. Hurry up and consume as much as you can, hopefully we'll both be dead before famine strikes the rich parts of the world, but at least we got ours. https://www.overshootday.org/ https://www.overshootday.org/
  - _cs2017_ 8y ago
    IIUC, you're sharing your personal preference. Specifically, you would like people to indulge in luxuries only to a modest degree, and put a good effort into improving the environment, quality of life for other people, etc. I didn't mean to disrespect your preference. I was just saying that most people, I think, don't share your preference. And so the world will not evolve in the direction you wish.
    - majewsky 8y ago
      The error in this argument is that preferences are static. Preferences change all the time. The question is how to make people change their preference. (Which is something that most people do only unconsciously.)
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> I'm pretty sure we will see more and more conflicts and climate refugees in our lifetime when people are driven from their land by floods, droughts, or similar. I'm worried now. In France there's been some pretty intensive protesting over past two weeks, and from what I read it's about (or at least started as being about) increased petroleum tax. If this is in any way representative, then we can kiss proper emission taxing good-bye. The general population doesn't seem to appreciate the magnitude of the problem, and thus attempting to actually mitigate it seems a political suicide (and/or invitation for civil war).
- adrianN 8y ago
  See also: protests against coal mine closures
anongraddebt 8y ago
The optimistic outlook is that 'Detroit' (Ford, GM, etc.) will either become a collection of new software companies or go extinct within ~10-20 years. That is, the first wave of autonomous vehicles (whenever that will occur) will be green-friendly in design.
black-tea 8y ago
The cars are obese just like the people. It's sickening.

joe_the_user 8y ago

There's no way to make gas expensive enough that the wealthy are deterred from buying gas guzzlers but the poor are able to drive something (and thus get to work, etc). When you have some groups with far more income and wealth than others, controlling behavior with taxes becomes difficult to impossible. The only way to achieve fuel economy in American cars is by regulation.

adrianN 8y ago
It would already help if 80% of the people who now choose an SUV would choose a small car.
kenhwang 8y ago
The obvious solution is to tax automakers based on their overall fuel economy instead of breakout by cars/trucks. The problem is that it pretty much kills the US auto industry since they're almost always the least fuel efficient in every segment and bias heavily towards making large vehicles.
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  The regulatory system that was in place, a requirement that automakers increase the average fuel economy on their vehicles, worked for the last forty in that fuel economy rating steadily increased. The requirements could and probably should have been tweaked early to apply to all sold to be used as personal transportation - ie, everything but actual work trucks.

whalesalad 8y ago

Cars aren’t the primary green house gas issue. Animal agriculture and energy are. Plus, America only accounts for about 15% of greenhouse gas emissions. So even if all of us hedonistic Americans drove tiny little cars the current global warming trend would continue. You make decent arguments but the fact of the matter is it’s a drop in the bucket.

prawn 8y ago
Were they advocating for "tiny little cars" or just suggesting something more appropriately sized for a subset of people? Ideally, people would have easier access to a certain type of car when they needed it, rather than buying that type of car for all activities so they felt prepared.
scarejunba 8y ago
15% is huge. 1 in every seven tons of GHG is from a single country? That’s wild. China is as bad. But neither are ‘only’.
- sorenjan 8y ago
  I actually find it a bit sickening when I hear people like Trump say that they don't want to stop polluting because China is polluting, and increasingly so. China have more than four times as many inhabitants, most of them live nowhere close the same lifestyle as the average or even most of the poorest Americans (or Europeans, I'm not putting all the blame on the US). A lot of western manufacturing is outsourced to countries like China, meaning that some of their pollution is actually ours. We in the west have also had a lot of time building our economy using fossil fuel, so we have a pretty significant climate debt. But the argument "others do it too" isn't a valid argument.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sorenjan 8y ago
Transportation accounts for 28% of USA's greenhouse gas emissions. And the point is that instead of increasing your carbon footprint because other sources are greater, you should try to decrease it. Of course there are other issues of equal or greater importance, like mass consumption of cheap stuff manufactured in Asia and transported around the world, but choosing a Ford Explorer instead of a Ford Focus doesn't exactly help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_th...

eigenvector 8y ago

Even within the limited segment that does actually 'need' a truck, American trucks are unnecessarily large. I drive a pickup every day at work, I was still shocked when I went to Texas seeing a half-ton pickup truck be the default vehicle everywhere. The Toyota Hilux, probably the most common working pickup truck in the world, would look like a toy in a suburban American mall parking lot.

NegativeLatency 8y ago
You can thank the US government for that. :/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
rasz 8y ago
Eighties-nineties Toyota Hilux maybe, those do look like toys compared to 2018 model. Modern Hilux is just as fat as any other US truck.
anfilt 8y ago
I really hate how big trucks are in the US. I wish there were something slightly bigger than a Kei truck. I would really like a something like that.
- thrower123 8y ago
  Blame emissions standards. They effectively killed everything in the Ford Ranger, Chevy S10 size range, and pushed the survivors up into the size parameters of what an 80s or 90s half-ton pickup used to be, if perhaps not the weight, due to steel vs aluminium/plastic construction. Notably, modern Toyota Tacomas dwarf their predecessors.

_cs2017_ 8y ago

> Very few people actually need an SUV Only in the sense that no one needs good food, fashionable clothes, entertainment, cool gadgets, large houses, etc. Take it away from them, and you'll find yourself a very unpopular leader. If you prefer to be one with nature, go ahead, there's still plenty of places where you can do that. It's not something most people will choose though.

sorenjan 8y ago
I'm not talking about leadership, I'm talking about culture, morals, and personal accountability. People are making the wrong choice, and it's selfish. There's a middle ground between being one with nature and driving a 4x4 between the suburb and the city. Much of the other things you describe as necessities to be happy with your leadership are also big problems. Overconsumption of clothes, meat, gadgets, too big houses, etc. Overshoot day took place on August 1 this year. Hurry up and consume as much as you can, hopefully we'll both be dead before famine strikes the rich parts of the world, but at least we got ours. https://www.overshootday.org/ https://www.overshootday.org/
- _cs2017_ 8y ago
  IIUC, you're sharing your personal preference. Specifically, you would like people to indulge in luxuries only to a modest degree, and put a good effort into improving the environment, quality of life for other people, etc. I didn't mean to disrespect your preference. I was just saying that most people, I think, don't share your preference. And so the world will not evolve in the direction you wish.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    The error in this argument is that preferences are static. Preferences change all the time. The question is how to make people change their preference. (Which is something that most people do only unconsciously.)

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> I'm pretty sure we will see more and more conflicts and climate refugees in our lifetime when people are driven from their land by floods, droughts, or similar. I'm worried now. In France there's been some pretty intensive protesting over past two weeks, and from what I read it's about (or at least started as being about) increased petroleum tax. If this is in any way representative, then we can kiss proper emission taxing good-bye. The general population doesn't seem to appreciate the magnitude of the problem, and thus attempting to actually mitigate it seems a political suicide (and/or invitation for civil war).

adrianN 8y ago
See also: protests against coal mine closures

anongraddebt 8y ago

The optimistic outlook is that 'Detroit' (Ford, GM, etc.) will either become a collection of new software companies or go extinct within ~10-20 years. That is, the first wave of autonomous vehicles (whenever that will occur) will be green-friendly in design.

black-tea 8y ago

The cars are obese just like the people. It's sickening.