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One of the things I feel happens in the tech world is innovation for innovation’s sake. In my opinion, “Real innovation” solves problems. What was the problem A

One of the things I feel happens in the tech world is innovation for innovation’s sake. In my opinion, “Real innovation” solves problems. What was the problem Apple was really trying to solve by removing the jack? The only thing I can come up with is to allow a “thinner” design. In all the previous “radical changes”, they created a “better solution” to a problem. Take the removal of Floppies or CD drives, in both cases, the problem was getting data onto the machine efficiently. In both cases technology moved ahead and created better methods of moving data. Please correct me if I am wrong here, but I fail to see what problem they really “solved” by removing the audio jack.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Many have said thinner is the reason, yet phones without jacks are not thinner than those with. The problem solved was encouraging sales of some very expensive wireless earbuds. I really do think it was as simple as that. Those who want Bluetooth wireless could just as easily have it on a phone with a jack without losing any benefit. They already did.
- MAGZine 8y ago
  My understanding is that the headphone jack actually occupies a lot of space. If you have opened up a phone before, it is evident that all internal space is _very_ well accounted for, so removing a headphone jack is actually a very tangible increase in usable internal space. And it's not just the jack, you need to include a DAC in the device, too! This means being able to include more/new co-processors, different/better microphone technology, etc, not just thinner. Only what I've heard from other hardware engineers though, I do not work directly in the space. "Sell headphones," could absolutely be a goal.
  - zwkrt 8y ago
    Well in any case iPhones got bigger and thicker in the last cycle so they must have neededa lot of extra room.
  - Johnny555 8y ago
    So make the phone 0.5mm thicker or so, and you can make the battery thicker and shorter to make room for the headphone jack (with higher capacity than it had before) I don't know who is pushing for wafer thick phones that are increasingly fragile with shorter battery life.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    > need to include a DAC in the device How does the earpiece and speaker work without a DAC in the device? That's there whether there's a jack or not. :)
    - dancek 8y ago
      The earpiece and speaker distort the sound so much it doesn't really matter what DAC you drive them through. ARM microcontrollers tend to have built-in DACs that are probably good enough for that kind of use. But when you have your high-quality headphones on, you can certainly tell the difference between a $0.10 DAC and a $5 DAC, just as you could tell the difference between 8-bit and 16-bit samples or 22kHz and 44kHz sample rate. To get good sound quality, you need good DAC and audio amplifier chips and well-balanced circuitry around them. That takes space.
  - dclowd9901 8y ago
    Do you notice the space difference? Because I sure as shit do not.
  - mattnewton 8y ago
    I haven’t seen an XS or XR tear down, but People have opened up the 8 and found room for a headphone jack. I find this argument hard to believe
  - Doxin 8y ago
    But then there's that one guy on youtube that managed to not only fit a headphone jack into an existing iphone but also a bunch of circuitry needed to switch the audio path. If a bloke with a little knowhow and a dremel can do a good job at it so can apple.
    - goldcd 8y ago
      Not sure if I'd go with "little know-how" - but yes, he most certainly did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA If nothing else it proves that the jack removal was not done for space-saving or anything other than business reasons. However whilst I'm prepared to think ill of Apple under pretty much any circumstance - I'm utterly clueless why so many other vendors jumped in (as they don't have Beats to schill). Still convinced I'm missing something clutches onto OG Pixel
- mattnewton 8y ago
  100% this. The average sale price of the phone can only go up so much.
sxg 8y ago
Removing the audio jack helped make the phone waterproof, which could be pretty vital. The decision is complicated because we're comparing the tangible loss of the audio jack against the intangible gain of a lower prevalence of water damage for iPhones.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Sony make perfectly waterproof devices with headphone jacks. It's a solved problem.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    How do the internal components/manufacturing process compare between Sony devices and iPhones? I only ask because it seems like you’re an expert in this topic.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      They can waterproof the dozen or so connections of the smaller USB-C, but not the three or four from the jack? Somehow Apple can't emulate something Sony and others have done for decades? I have more faith in Apple manufacturing ability.
      - paulcole 8y ago
        Sorry, I thought the confidence in your original post meant that you worked for Apple and had insider information. Pardon my error.
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        I'm amazed how condescending you can be about such a simple and easily proven concept!
  - justtopost 8y ago
    As did samsung, and many other major brands.
asdff 8y ago
Removing the audio jack improved peripheral sales and helped dominate wireless headphone market share. This wasn't an engineering decision.
0xBA5ED 8y ago
Exactly this. I have to wonder if the engineers were even asked for their opinion.
Eridrus 8y ago
So far, life without a headphone jack has been fine. I don't charge my phone while I use my headphones, and I just keep the dongle attached to my wired headphones. Used some USB-C headphones that came in the box today, and they also worked well. There are real use cases which aren't supported, but it seems like they come from a vocal minority. And I'm not sure we should be solving these use cases with a (largely) single use port that takes up a noticeable amount of space. Phones used to ship with IR blasters, but that doesn't really happen any more, and if you want that, you get an adapter. Maybe I'll change my tune if my adapter breaks regularly, but I needed to replace my cheap wired headphones semi-regularly already. My experience with my last phone, where the audio jack started losing a connection if I bumped the jack, or tried to reposition the wire also makes me look more fondly on the idea of wireless headphones, since I'm aware that the jack is not perfect tech either. And in any case, there are still manufacturers making phones with headphone jacks, so vote with your wallet! It is sad that phones are these bundles of tech and you can't just order a phone with a headphone jack, but if this is really a deciding feature, people should definitely vote with their wallet here!
lagadu 8y ago
> The only thing I can come up with is to allow a “thinner” design. The thinnest iPhone ever was the 6s, which had a headphone jack so that doesn't hold water. The only justification that I know that works out is that by removing the headphone jack you do free up a bunch of space inside the phone, which can be used for more electronics or battery.
YetAnotherNick 8y ago
It's not to save space. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA . There is just plastic sitting in its place and it is possible to add headphone jack, without making it thick.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Many have said thinner is the reason, yet phones without jacks are not thinner than those with. The problem solved was encouraging sales of some very expensive wireless earbuds. I really do think it was as simple as that. Those who want Bluetooth wireless could just as easily have it on a phone with a jack without losing any benefit. They already did.

MAGZine 8y ago
My understanding is that the headphone jack actually occupies a lot of space. If you have opened up a phone before, it is evident that all internal space is _very_ well accounted for, so removing a headphone jack is actually a very tangible increase in usable internal space. And it's not just the jack, you need to include a DAC in the device, too! This means being able to include more/new co-processors, different/better microphone technology, etc, not just thinner. Only what I've heard from other hardware engineers though, I do not work directly in the space. "Sell headphones," could absolutely be a goal.
- zwkrt 8y ago
  Well in any case iPhones got bigger and thicker in the last cycle so they must have neededa lot of extra room.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  So make the phone 0.5mm thicker or so, and you can make the battery thicker and shorter to make room for the headphone jack (with higher capacity than it had before) I don't know who is pushing for wafer thick phones that are increasingly fragile with shorter battery life.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  > need to include a DAC in the device How does the earpiece and speaker work without a DAC in the device? That's there whether there's a jack or not. :)
  - dancek 8y ago
    The earpiece and speaker distort the sound so much it doesn't really matter what DAC you drive them through. ARM microcontrollers tend to have built-in DACs that are probably good enough for that kind of use. But when you have your high-quality headphones on, you can certainly tell the difference between a $0.10 DAC and a $5 DAC, just as you could tell the difference between 8-bit and 16-bit samples or 22kHz and 44kHz sample rate. To get good sound quality, you need good DAC and audio amplifier chips and well-balanced circuitry around them. That takes space.
- dclowd9901 8y ago
  Do you notice the space difference? Because I sure as shit do not.
- mattnewton 8y ago
  I haven’t seen an XS or XR tear down, but People have opened up the 8 and found room for a headphone jack. I find this argument hard to believe
- Doxin 8y ago
  But then there's that one guy on youtube that managed to not only fit a headphone jack into an existing iphone but also a bunch of circuitry needed to switch the audio path. If a bloke with a little knowhow and a dremel can do a good job at it so can apple.
  - goldcd 8y ago
    Not sure if I'd go with "little know-how" - but yes, he most certainly did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA If nothing else it proves that the jack removal was not done for space-saving or anything other than business reasons. However whilst I'm prepared to think ill of Apple under pretty much any circumstance - I'm utterly clueless why so many other vendors jumped in (as they don't have Beats to schill). Still convinced I'm missing something clutches onto OG Pixel
mattnewton 8y ago
100% this. The average sale price of the phone can only go up so much.

sxg 8y ago

Removing the audio jack helped make the phone waterproof, which could be pretty vital. The decision is complicated because we're comparing the tangible loss of the audio jack against the intangible gain of a lower prevalence of water damage for iPhones.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Sony make perfectly waterproof devices with headphone jacks. It's a solved problem.
- paulcole 8y ago
  How do the internal components/manufacturing process compare between Sony devices and iPhones? I only ask because it seems like you’re an expert in this topic.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    They can waterproof the dozen or so connections of the smaller USB-C, but not the three or four from the jack? Somehow Apple can't emulate something Sony and others have done for decades? I have more faith in Apple manufacturing ability.
    - paulcole 8y ago
      Sorry, I thought the confidence in your original post meant that you worked for Apple and had insider information. Pardon my error.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        I'm amazed how condescending you can be about such a simple and easily proven concept!
- justtopost 8y ago
  As did samsung, and many other major brands.

asdff 8y ago

Removing the audio jack improved peripheral sales and helped dominate wireless headphone market share. This wasn't an engineering decision.

0xBA5ED 8y ago

Exactly this. I have to wonder if the engineers were even asked for their opinion.

Eridrus 8y ago

So far, life without a headphone jack has been fine. I don't charge my phone while I use my headphones, and I just keep the dongle attached to my wired headphones. Used some USB-C headphones that came in the box today, and they also worked well. There are real use cases which aren't supported, but it seems like they come from a vocal minority. And I'm not sure we should be solving these use cases with a (largely) single use port that takes up a noticeable amount of space. Phones used to ship with IR blasters, but that doesn't really happen any more, and if you want that, you get an adapter. Maybe I'll change my tune if my adapter breaks regularly, but I needed to replace my cheap wired headphones semi-regularly already. My experience with my last phone, where the audio jack started losing a connection if I bumped the jack, or tried to reposition the wire also makes me look more fondly on the idea of wireless headphones, since I'm aware that the jack is not perfect tech either. And in any case, there are still manufacturers making phones with headphone jacks, so vote with your wallet! It is sad that phones are these bundles of tech and you can't just order a phone with a headphone jack, but if this is really a deciding feature, people should definitely vote with their wallet here!

lagadu 8y ago

> The only thing I can come up with is to allow a “thinner” design. The thinnest iPhone ever was the 6s, which had a headphone jack so that doesn't hold water. The only justification that I know that works out is that by removing the headphone jack you do free up a bunch of space inside the phone, which can be used for more electronics or battery.

YetAnotherNick 8y ago

It's not to save space. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA . There is just plastic sitting in its place and it is possible to add headphone jack, without making it thick.