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What was the role of the blacksmith in medieval society?
- bradknowles 8y agoAnd so they don’t talk at all about the non-military metalwork that a blacksmith would have done, or the value of those things. Like nails, or hinges, or gates, or locks, or tools for other workers. IMO, it is useful to look at what a modern blacksmith does and then ask what of those things had what utility back then. Check out the Artist Blacksmith Association of North America and then come back to this article and see how empty it is.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoNor does he mention horse shoes, and eating knives in an age where nearly everyone carried their own personal knife for food. Then there's the other cutlery and kitchen equipment, and the scythes and other tools to grow and harvest that food. The bands for barrels and wheels. The linchpins for those wheels. That's the reason blacksmiths were the linchpin (sorry) of their village. They were the toolmakers of their day. Even militarily it's strangely lacking. No mention of the million arrows an English expedition might take to France. That needs a million arrow heads. There's a surprising amount of work goes into a bodkin or broadhead, needing hundreds or thousands across the country to contribute. Yet the author is studying for a degree in Medieval Studies and I've just read a bunch of history books for fun.
- AstralStorm 8y agoEh, most people used wooden or ceramic eating utensils. Except the rich of course. There is a reason why a metal utensils set was dowry... The other stuff, indeed. The article is a shallow editorial not a major work on medieval history.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoThat's why the personal knife was so important as most of the rest wasn't metal. :)
- GuB-42 8y agoAbout the personal knife, it is interesting that in the french country, you often see people eating with their own personal knife, even when they have all the cutlery they need in the kitchen. Lagiole or Opinel folding knives are typical. These knives are often prized possessions, and it is not uncommon to see old people using the same knife they had when they were young, the blade being shortened by successive sharpening.
- wavefunction 8y agoWhen did England invade France in the Medieval era?
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoThe Hundred Years War, 1337 to 1453. Henry V and Agincourt etc. Edit: Dates :)
- wavefunction 8y agoThat's the answer I was expecting. It seems strange to me to use the end of the High Medieval era and extrapolate that back across the whole.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoIt's the most well known. It's not like the English longbow or archery was a recent innovation by the time of the Hundred Years Wars. by that point there had been centuries of extensive use. The Burhs defending against Viking raids in the time of Alfred needed arrowheads too, as did the Vikings themselves.
- phillc73 8y agoAdding a response to the original question: The Battle of Gisors in 1198 was an English victory on French soil.[1] Regarding the English Longbow, there appears to be an ongoing debate regarding when the longbow was developed, as used in the Hundred Years War. There are some who argue that prior to the late thirteenth Century, English bows were either a shortbow or less powerful "ordinary bow."[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gisors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gisors [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Origins
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoYou're right. There's a respectably wide span across which the longbow may have become dominant, and another period of using some amount of both. I think most certainty is their origination in Wales. The Welsh and Normans were constantly learning from each other's tactics from the earliest excursions by the Normans. There are some who document longbows being used during the war of succession between England and Normandy in the 1140s (The Anarchy), and in Wales a little later in the 12th. Others have argued much later. Unless we get an older find of Mary Rose quality, I think that debate will run on. :)
- wallace_f 8y ago>Yet the author is studying for a degree in Medieval Studies and I've just read a bunch of history books for fun. Often there does seem there must be a more meritocratic way to organize the merit of intellectual endeavors than what Feynman said could be "rotten clubs," academia. Surely academia is not the worst model, but with the tech we have today it seems quite medieval (sorry).
- jon-wood 8y agoThis is a very real problem, even in academic circles. My wife has a PhD in medieval studies, but because she's pursuing a career outside of academia she has no affiliation with an educational establishment. That means that if she wants to do research she has to get friends still within the system to borrow books on her behalf from university libraries. She's also unlikely to get anything she writes published, and presenting papers at conferences is prohibitively expensive because they're all priced on the basis that everyone is just going to expense their tickets, travel, and accommodation. Academia is very much a club of people who think they're superior to the rest of us because they have a university ID badge, and getting anywhere in that world is essentially a case of waiting for professors to die off. There's a great many good reasons she decided to get out of that world professionally, but it seems a shame to stop talented and passionate people from contributing.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago> She's also unlikely to get anything she writes published. I chose not to remain in academia, but I still publish from time to time and certainly I've never had anything turned down by an editorial board for not being presently employed in academia (and then the article goes on to anonymous peer review). One can put down one’s university alumnus e-mail address in one's contact information, and if institutional affiliation is asked "University of X (alumnus)" is enough – often in the humanities the affiliation is shown in the article to give readers an idea of what tradition the writer comes out of, not necessarily where he/she is presently employed. With regard to your wife not being able to borrow from uni libraries, that is unfortunate, but you shouldn’t disparage academia internationally as an elitist club for that, because there are myriad institutions where borrowing privileges are extended to alumni or even to the general public.
- iguy 8y agoAnd no mention of plows. IIRC almost the entire reason that northern europe could have a much larger society in medieval times (compared to roman) was that they had more metal, for making better plows, to turn over the heavy soil. That's why blacksmiths were so important.
- phillc73 8y agoFirst they had to make the swords before they could turn them into ploughshares.
- mhd 8y ago"Across the country"? I thought that a lot of the production of the English warbow and its associated equipment was pretty centralized. Hunting equipment (both bows and arrows) as something entirely different (I think there's some evidence in found arrowheads). But yeah, the article also equates "metalworker" and "blacksmith" in the first sentence, which is a bit weird, considering how highly specialized professions often were. No such thing as a "full stack smith", especially in late medieval cities.
- benj111 8y agoLords had quite a lot of power at the time, supplying soldiers (equipped) was basically one of their taxes to the king. I would be surprised if lords didn't maintain their own capability to produce arrows. Plus in a siege situation you would also want to be able to repair weapons and such. I don't think a full stack smith would have been that unusual. Certainly at the low end. The friendly local blacksmith would probably be expected to do just about everything. If you wanted a top end sword, that would be much more specialised. I don't have any idea about the relative size of the groups though.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoMy understanding is things like armour were highly specialised and centralised. Not sure about the basic armour for archers and men, which would have been needed in more quantity. Archery seems to have required a properly national effort, thanks to the escalation of military in the Hundred Years War. Levies on Lords and the peasantry in shires to provide men, wood, feathers, heads and what not. The assembly was, as I understand it, at least mostly centralised. There were levies to collect goose wing feathers from every goose to fill huge orders. I've no idea if Northern shires got off lightly thanks to distance. :) Ultimately there was a Keeper of the King's Arrows who was responsible for just managing it all and bringing in adequate stocks. Similar for bows. Earlier it wouldn't have needed that scale of effort, or management. I thought most came from the shires with the men going to the King, and was often quite variable as a result.
- hef19898 8y agoI never dug too deep into medival history, so thanks for pointing the Keeper of King's Arrows out to me. Definetly worth a deeper look or two. Quite interesting to see the first signs of "industrialisation" of war already that early. Usually that is put into much later periods. (With the notable exception of naval warfare, navies always required more management attention than armies).
- hef19898 8y agoAt the moment I am studying history at my local university (as a hobby to be honest). I am also an industrial engineer by training, a supply chain manager and currently a project manager for Integrated Logistics Support. And what I realized is that history is focusing a lot on the social side of things. And yes the military side as well (there is one professor who discouraged students to go after military what-ifs if they don't have the propper background). What they totally lack is technical, economic and trade / supply side of things. Nobody is really looking into stuff like resource allocation during modern war like WW 1 and WW 2 on the level of military gear developed. Lend-lease is an underrepresented topic imho. So I am not surprised that you with a technical background and an interest in history can provide insight into the importance bn of blacksmiths a pure historian can't. And if you look at the area where technology, production and military overlap it really gets tricky. Even current experts are struggling for today's challenges. So I can imagine that in a historical context it is even harder, especially without a strong background in one of the three domains and solid knowledge ib at least one of the others. I guess what I want to say is, let's go easy on zhe guy and provide some additional ideas. Maybe he's reading this discussion.
- benj111 8y agoI wouldn't say logistics is completely ignored, but yes it is under represented. I'm sure I've come across contemporary lists of what lords would have to supply for a mediaeval campaign, (something like each lord shall supply X archers, each with Y arrows, also Z men at arms) so you could work backwards from there. Sorry if I'm teaching my grandmother the suck eggs.
- hinkley 8y agoAs an observer, history teachers have taught me that Rome, Napoleon and maybe Alexander worried about logistics. I theory the message is that they were superlative in their logistical prowess, but in practice we only see a few examples.
- hef19898 8y agoThere are certainly exceptions. I remember one documentory that looked at the theory that the roman empire's strength was infrastructure. I simply feel it is underrepresented.
- wavefunction 8y agoIn many feudal societies, metal was a controlled substance especially among the peasant/serf populations. If you look at the architecture of most residences from the medieval era: thatch, wattle-and-daub and not a lot of hinges or nailed together things.
- swish_bob 8y agoLeather hinges and wooden nails are significantly cheaper in a society where your blacksmith (or his apprentices for nails) has to spend a significant amount of time making them. Not to mention the significant cost of the raw materials. Peasants/serfs just couldn't afford metal for such fripperies.
- mymythisisthis 8y agoIt's also easier and faster. If you have lots of practice using cheap leather, why not try building it from that first. It was like the plastic of the day. Can be molded to any shape, and it was extremely strong.
- swish_bob 8y agoMuch! Working metal is _hard_ and slow.
- hef19898 8y agoOkay, just read through it. In additon to the, more general points in my other comment I have some more things. 1) The way blacksmith's educated apprentices. Yes, it somehow resembles what knights did. But than it is also what every other craftsman did, be it tailors, carpetmakers or whatever. Strange to again link blacksmiths to knights as the article stated that you have to stop to do that. 2) Sure thing that kings from that period focus in their writing on war. That's what they did and that's what was important for them. Without a powerfull "military" they would have stopped to be kings. So maybe additional sources regarding the civilian life with regards to blacksmiths would have served the article well. 3) I know that it is tempting to look at the "saxy" stuff like swords and arrows and armor while taking the basic stuff for granted. Much like nobody cares today about all the consumer electronics around us today. Yet, the impact of these trivial things and the people making them on a society is huge. Especially in history people should focus more on that, luckily some historians do. So now that's it. But even with the benefit of doubt the article makes a not to o good editorial.
- ryanmercer 8y ago>Like nails, or hinges, or gates, or locks, or tools for other workers. Most of these would have been luxuries to most, the exception being the tools which would have still been rare belonging to tradesmen. Nails in the late 1400's a 6 penny nail would have been about 1 USD a piece, a 16 penny nail about 2.60 USD a piece, nails were largely used for nice furniture/chests/affixing hardware which again would have been mostly for those in higher stations in life. Gates, ha, outside of castles gates were wood or movable stones used to block openings in rock walls (this is what the original Húsafell stone, of Strongman fame, was). Same for hinges, you wouldn't have seen too many doors outside of castles and businesses as you needed skilled tradesmen to even attempt to build structures that had remotely square corners. For locks, the Medievalist has a good article about them (it's a great site/publication in general) http://www.medievalists.net/2011/03/medieval-padlocks-an-introduction/ http://www.medievalists.net/2011/03/medieval-padlocks-an-int... the article is actually linked on that page as a PDF after a brief introduction. Didn't want to direct link the PDF for those with bandwidth limitations.
- hithereiampaul 8y agoJesus Christ be praised.
- ourmandave 8y agoIn all the documentaries I've seen (e.g. Robin Hood, Avengers Infinity War, etc.) blacksmiths are for spouting exposition and building the hero's super weapon montages.
- dlhavema 8y agoWeren't the blacksmiths in Robin Hood only for the bad guy?
- vharuck 8y agoThe article often touches a lot of things which probably have a lot of interesting depth, but then it moves on to the next one. It could at least cite more primary sources so I'd know what to read for more.
- mymythisisthis 8y agohttps://belowthesurface.amsterdam/en/vondsten https://belowthesurface.amsterdam/en/vondsten Looks to me like blacksmiths made lots of buckles for horses, arrowheads, needles, small knifes, and jewelery.
- gaius 8y agoThis is silly. If you asked anyone what medieval blacksmiths did 9/10 would say horseshoes.
- leni536 8y agoI wonder why Smith is such a common family name in many languages.
- apocolyps6 8y agoSmiths were common, and occupational surnames were common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surname#Occupational_surname https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surname#Occupational_surname
- ThePadawan 8y agoA quite interesting question of language. English seems to disambiguate between blacksmith, smith and farrier, while German (to my knowledge) only knows Schmied ("smith") and Hufschmied ("hoof smith").
- mcv 8y agoWikipedia lists Smith, Blacksmith, Coppersmith, Bladesmith, Weaponsmith and a whole bunch of others. In Dutch, "smid", "hoefsmid" and "edelsmid" (for gold and jewelry) are probably the most common words.
- rubberpoliceman 8y agoI know of Goldschmied, Silberschmied, Kupferschmied, Feinschmied, Grobschmied, Messerschmied, and Stahlschmied ({gold, silver, copper, fine, coarse, blade, steel} smith), all of which are either current trades or preserved as last names.
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoTangentially, I was just wondering what the time investment is for mail as opposed to plate armor. Plate needs to be individually fitted, which I'm sure is time-consuming, but mail takes ages to attach and (ideally) weld or rivet each individual link. On the other hand, practically anyone can turn wire into passable mail with a bit of practice, so it could be farmed out to apprentices and assistants; it's not difficult, just laborious. Plate presumably demanded the more valuable time of a fully-trained smith.
- caymanjim 8y agoDoes no one proofread anymore? I'm interested in the topic, but I can't read this article. Every other sentence has a spelling or grammar error. It's like nails on a chalkboard.
- rhacker 8y agoI absolutely agree with all the comments on how much of a puff piece this is. Are we going to waste our collective time killing websites that says "birds are cool" next? Can we please flag and kill this.
- benj111 8y agoDoes anyone know about repair at this time? A lot of ink is spilled about how a blacksmith made something, not so much about repair. Arrow heads, were they repaired/reused, or just used as scrap? If a sword has snapped in half was it welded back together, modified into a knife, had the whole blade replaced?
- ryanmercer 8y ago>If a sword has snapped in half was it welded back together I'm not aware of any physical period examples of this happening HOWEVER the Gísla saga mentions a broken sword being used to fashion a spearhead. Melting the metal back into bar stock would have been a waste of time and resources if you could just forge it into something else. The above example of making a spearhead, as you suggest making a shorter blade is logical, someone could have just reused it to pattern weld (pattern welding existed by the 2nd century in Europe) another implement.
- benj111 8y ago" Then Thorkel brings out the broken bits of "Graysteel," which had fallen to his lot when they parted their heritage, and Thorgrim forged out of it a spear, and that spear was all ready by even and fitted to its haft." http://sagadb.org/gisla_saga_surssonar.en http://sagadb.org/gisla_saga_surssonar.en This reads to me more like just using the metal as raw material? Obviously some 'nuance' will be lost in the translation of ancient sagas though. My intuition is that if everything is hand made to order, theres nearly no down side to fixing/ remaking versus making from scratch. I'm interested to see how far that went.
- ryanmercer 8y agoNamed weapons in myth (Mjolnir, Tyrfing, Fragarach, Moralltach, Claíomh Solais etc) and legend almost always involved magical properties, I would assume that using the material to literally forge something else would destroy these properties and that more likely the intention here is that the tip side of the break was used for a spear point.
- posterboy 8y agoT'was blacksmithn, I reckon. In ancient times it was the highest responsibility in the village, next to the druid's, administering judgement and a good ol' smitin', collecting funds, preparing or war.
- kevin_b_er 8y agoOf note, the site attempts to run malicious javascript by some organization known as "Centify" that interferes with the User Agent. It attempts to block reading of the text based on the User Agent acting on behalf of the user by removing extraneous images and scripts.
- xrd 8y agoIf you step back from this article and read the comments, it is actually really funny to see how passionate people here are about accurately characterizing blacksmithing hundreds of years ago. I say this as someone who has done a small bit of blacksmithing and am an interested party in this conversation. The intensity of the comments here is hilarious.