7 ms·

Great let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. I like Linux a

Great let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. I like Linux as anyone else around here, but to claim it can replace Win10 for the average user is a stretch.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
>let me know when [...] I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. Consider yourself told, then. Linux works OOTB on pretty much all hardware, often better than Windows since it ships with all of the necessary drivers. >to claim it can replace Win10 for the average user is a stretch The average user can handle KDE Plasma just fine.
- RaleyField 8y ago
  > Consider yourself told, then. Nowadays I run mostly Ubuntu but before this attitude used to be a big turn off for me. When things manifestly don't work but the partisan chorus is acting like Linux is the most perfect thing ever then it is really easy to walk back out of spite. I run Linux because it's the least bad OS _for me_, it's still pretty bad in so many ways. > often better than Windows And often not. My experience with Linux drivers has always been only "tolerable". > KDE Plasma It's functional. But its design language (if it has any) is by far my least favorite one. I'd rather use Windows than use KDE.
- kitsunesoba 8y ago
  It’s definitely not full OOTB on any machine using Broadcom wifi/Bluetooth, and sometimes not even Ubuntu’s additional drivers tool is of no help — if you have no reasonable access to alternate network connections (hardwire, tethering, etc) you’re stuck ferrying around .deb files on thumb drives and such. There are other less than ideal aspects of taking up Linux as well, but that one is on the top of my head because I’ve encountered it so frequently.
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    > you’re stuck ferrying around .deb files on thumb drives and such. This has been the case on any Windows install not from an OEM install medium, which I never used because they're always modified with bloatware! Good luck getting Internet to work without a smartphone acting as cheap wifi bridge.
    - tobi1449 8y ago
      What was the last Windows you installed? Window XP?
      - mschuster91 8y ago
        Windows 7, for what it's worth. Laptop wifi and ethernet drivers.
- johnduhart 8y ago
  > Consider yourself told, then. Oh, please enlighten me, Drew. > Linux works OOTB on pretty much all hardware, often better than Windows Are device manufacturers supporting Linux? > since it ships with all of the necessary drivers. No it doesn't, last time I checked to even get the recommended usb wifi module to work on Arch required downloading additional packages and compiling a kernel module. > The average user can handle KDE Plasma just fine. Cool let me know how you handle explaining why they can't run some exe they downloaded on your GNU/Linux setup, and when they complain that they're used to Microsoft Word not this LibreOffice stuff.
  - bildung 8y ago
    >> since it ships with all of the necessary drivers. > No it doesn't, last time I checked to even get the recommended usb wifi module to work on Arch required downloading additional packages and compiling a kernel module. Compiling things yourself is the entire point of Arch. If you don't want to mess with things like these just use Ubuntu.
    - Xylakant 8y ago
      There's still no stable support for my thinkpads fingerprint sensor on a current fedora/ubuntu. Last time I checked, neither supported the built-in WWAN modem in my thinkpad, either. And I'm not even using any really exotic hardware and the T460s model isn't exactly brand new either. Windows support works perfectly well for both pieces of hardware.
      - explainplease 8y ago
        Okay. What about hardware that works better on Linux? Why do you assume that this issue strictly favors Windows?
        Xylakant 8y ago
        There is very little standard (consumer) hardware that works better or exclusively on Linux (1). Due to market pressure, Windows drivers are widely available, but Linux is not necessarily (fully) supported. As another example: printers. Quite a few (even SO/HO) printers don't have proper Linux drivers. I can't reliably print double-sided on our office brother printer. Getting the networked scanner to work is a lesson in debugging. On MacOS and Windows: Trivial task. Just works. (1) Keep in mind that the whole article is about consumer/end-user OS, not about server OS. I'd still bet that windows support is at least as widespread as Linux on servers.
- winrid 8y ago
  Linux doesn't work on pretty much any new laptop with a hybrid graphics card without editing kernel options at boot and such... and even then the drivers are bad compared to Windows.
- ahje 8y ago
  From a usability perspective, sure. Ther are, however, tons of internally developed tools and applications running on client PC's in various businesses. Not all of those tools and applications work with Wine or Linux equivalents. Source: Just had to install Windows for the first time in 8 years because we got bought by a competitor who use such software internally.
- salvar 8y ago
  So why isn't everyone using it then?
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    Do you really need this answered? Because their computer comes with Windows pre-installed.
    - salvar 8y ago
      Yes, I really do. Why don't more computers come with Linux pre-installed? If Linux is such a great replacement for Windows, why has it made very little gains in replacing Windows? Is it all somebody else's fault and has nothing to do with the usability of Linux?
      - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
        Because money = influence. Linux has none and Microsoft has lots. It's really that simple.
        salvar 8y ago
        I'll have to disagree with that. Linux has significant usability problems, and pretending that it has none is not going to help anyone.
        Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
        Enumerate some of them?
        salvar 8y ago
        Is there any point? It seems like you're convinced enough that nothing can ever change your mind. So I'm fine with just disagreeing and leaving it at that.
        8y ago
- thepp1983 8y ago
  It doesn't work well OOTB. This is just incorrect. I've been using Linux/Unix for about 20 years now. There are still loads of things that just do not work and I really expect them to work. I am not talking about specialist hardware. I am talking about things like a USB headset I have (works fine on Windows and MacOSX without having to install any additional drivers). Doesn't work on Linux. I installed Slack using the deb package (on ubuntu). Won't start, no idea why. Just segfaults. So I have to use the browser version of slack. X will still hang with certain applications. Sometimes I close the Lid and the laptop never wakes up.I still get screen tearing when moving windows around. This stuff was fixed years ago on Windows. Now I could fix these things. However it hours of messing around when I could use a Linux VM on my Mac of WSL on Windows these days. > The average user can handle KDE Plasma just fine. No they can't. My friend (who can use Windows 7 just fine), when on my Linux PC and I have it setup pretty much like Windows and he couldn't work out how to open the web-browser. He isn't a dummy either. He has a masters in Aerospace Engineering and uses Matlab regularly. We are both 36 years of age.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    >I installed Slack using the deb package (on ubuntu). Won't start, no idea why. Just segfaults. So I have to use the browser version of slack. This is a problem with Slack, not with Linux. >X will still hang with certain applications. Sometimes I close the Lid and the laptop never wakes up.I still get screen tearing when moving windows around. This stuff was fixed years ago on Windows. Plasma, the desktop I recommended for end-users, has solved these problems. Years ago. >My friend (who can use Windows 7 just fine), when on my Linux PC and I have it setup pretty much like Windows and he couldn't work out how to open the web-browser I simply don't believe that you know someone who understands how to use Windows and yet couldn't open a web browser on KDE Plasma.
    - thepp1983 8y ago
      > This is a problem with Slack, not with Linux. This the attitude I always get and it stinks. I have sitting on my desk at home an Amiga 1200 (released in 1994). I can download a lha archive with a program in it, extract it and run it. Amiga OS was cutting edge in 1987ish. I still can't do that with a popular flavour of Linux like ubuntu. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to be able to download a package from the internet that is marked as "Ubuntu 18.04", use the package manager to install it and for it to work properly. There is also about 3 or 4 different methods (that are somewhat official) to install applications. Which is crazy. This problem only exists on Linux. > Plasma, the desktop I recommended for end-users, has solved these problems. Years ago. Good for you. Not everyone is running the same setup. The whole "Works For Me" attitude. Again this attitude stinks. > I simply don't believe that you know someone who understands how to use Windows and yet couldn't open a web browser on KDE Plasma. I still have some usage hangups on Windows since the Windows 2000 days and I have a lot of problems with newer versions of windows because I just get confused with the interface. It isn't that uncommon tbh. In the end I've learnt enough powershell now it not an issue for me. For a developer such as myself it is easier to just install WSL, run a VM or use something like vagrant or Docker and just put up with the odd annoyances that Windows 10 presents you with.
alasdair_ 8y ago
>Great let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. About five years ago? More? I've definitely had more issues installing Windows than Ubuntu on random hardware in the last five years.
mschuster91 8y ago
> Great let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. WINE is pretty decent these days. For what its worth it's even usable for gaming on Macs! (Okay, there only if you stick to older games, but there's no Fallout better than New Vegas anyway)
vetinari 8y ago
> let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue Did you ask the respective vendors? It's you who is giving them money; it's on you to ask for what you want. If you don't ask, the sales teams do not know what to work with.
njharman 8y ago
No one is claiming that. They are claiming that if you want an OS that doesn’t spy on you, is secure, and open to inspection then learn to use Linux. Or, to move even further towards security, openBSD.
flukus 8y ago
If users are not willing to face some discomfort then they're welcome to keep getting abused by MS like this, as there is no disincentive not to.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago

>let me know when [...] I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. Consider yourself told, then. Linux works OOTB on pretty much all hardware, often better than Windows since it ships with all of the necessary drivers. >to claim it can replace Win10 for the average user is a stretch The average user can handle KDE Plasma just fine.

RaleyField 8y ago
> Consider yourself told, then. Nowadays I run mostly Ubuntu but before this attitude used to be a big turn off for me. When things manifestly don't work but the partisan chorus is acting like Linux is the most perfect thing ever then it is really easy to walk back out of spite. I run Linux because it's the least bad OS _for me_, it's still pretty bad in so many ways. > often better than Windows And often not. My experience with Linux drivers has always been only "tolerable". > KDE Plasma It's functional. But its design language (if it has any) is by far my least favorite one. I'd rather use Windows than use KDE.
kitsunesoba 8y ago
It’s definitely not full OOTB on any machine using Broadcom wifi/Bluetooth, and sometimes not even Ubuntu’s additional drivers tool is of no help — if you have no reasonable access to alternate network connections (hardwire, tethering, etc) you’re stuck ferrying around .deb files on thumb drives and such. There are other less than ideal aspects of taking up Linux as well, but that one is on the top of my head because I’ve encountered it so frequently.
- mschuster91 8y ago
  > you’re stuck ferrying around .deb files on thumb drives and such. This has been the case on any Windows install not from an OEM install medium, which I never used because they're always modified with bloatware! Good luck getting Internet to work without a smartphone acting as cheap wifi bridge.
  - tobi1449 8y ago
    What was the last Windows you installed? Window XP?
    - mschuster91 8y ago
      Windows 7, for what it's worth. Laptop wifi and ethernet drivers.
johnduhart 8y ago
> Consider yourself told, then. Oh, please enlighten me, Drew. > Linux works OOTB on pretty much all hardware, often better than Windows Are device manufacturers supporting Linux? > since it ships with all of the necessary drivers. No it doesn't, last time I checked to even get the recommended usb wifi module to work on Arch required downloading additional packages and compiling a kernel module. > The average user can handle KDE Plasma just fine. Cool let me know how you handle explaining why they can't run some exe they downloaded on your GNU/Linux setup, and when they complain that they're used to Microsoft Word not this LibreOffice stuff.
- bildung 8y ago
  >> since it ships with all of the necessary drivers. > No it doesn't, last time I checked to even get the recommended usb wifi module to work on Arch required downloading additional packages and compiling a kernel module. Compiling things yourself is the entire point of Arch. If you don't want to mess with things like these just use Ubuntu.
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    There's still no stable support for my thinkpads fingerprint sensor on a current fedora/ubuntu. Last time I checked, neither supported the built-in WWAN modem in my thinkpad, either. And I'm not even using any really exotic hardware and the T460s model isn't exactly brand new either. Windows support works perfectly well for both pieces of hardware.
    - explainplease 8y ago
      Okay. What about hardware that works better on Linux? Why do you assume that this issue strictly favors Windows?
      - Xylakant 8y ago
        There is very little standard (consumer) hardware that works better or exclusively on Linux (1). Due to market pressure, Windows drivers are widely available, but Linux is not necessarily (fully) supported. As another example: printers. Quite a few (even SO/HO) printers don't have proper Linux drivers. I can't reliably print double-sided on our office brother printer. Getting the networked scanner to work is a lesson in debugging. On MacOS and Windows: Trivial task. Just works. (1) Keep in mind that the whole article is about consumer/end-user OS, not about server OS. I'd still bet that windows support is at least as widespread as Linux on servers.
winrid 8y ago
Linux doesn't work on pretty much any new laptop with a hybrid graphics card without editing kernel options at boot and such... and even then the drivers are bad compared to Windows.
ahje 8y ago
From a usability perspective, sure. Ther are, however, tons of internally developed tools and applications running on client PC's in various businesses. Not all of those tools and applications work with Wine or Linux equivalents. Source: Just had to install Windows for the first time in 8 years because we got bought by a competitor who use such software internally.
salvar 8y ago
So why isn't everyone using it then?
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  Do you really need this answered? Because their computer comes with Windows pre-installed.
  - salvar 8y ago
    Yes, I really do. Why don't more computers come with Linux pre-installed? If Linux is such a great replacement for Windows, why has it made very little gains in replacing Windows? Is it all somebody else's fault and has nothing to do with the usability of Linux?
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      Because money = influence. Linux has none and Microsoft has lots. It's really that simple.
      - salvar 8y ago
        I'll have to disagree with that. Linux has significant usability problems, and pretending that it has none is not going to help anyone.
        Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
        Enumerate some of them?
        salvar 8y ago
        Is there any point? It seems like you're convinced enough that nothing can ever change your mind. So I'm fine with just disagreeing and leaving it at that.
        8y ago
thepp1983 8y ago
It doesn't work well OOTB. This is just incorrect. I've been using Linux/Unix for about 20 years now. There are still loads of things that just do not work and I really expect them to work. I am not talking about specialist hardware. I am talking about things like a USB headset I have (works fine on Windows and MacOSX without having to install any additional drivers). Doesn't work on Linux. I installed Slack using the deb package (on ubuntu). Won't start, no idea why. Just segfaults. So I have to use the browser version of slack. X will still hang with certain applications. Sometimes I close the Lid and the laptop never wakes up.I still get screen tearing when moving windows around. This stuff was fixed years ago on Windows. Now I could fix these things. However it hours of messing around when I could use a Linux VM on my Mac of WSL on Windows these days. > The average user can handle KDE Plasma just fine. No they can't. My friend (who can use Windows 7 just fine), when on my Linux PC and I have it setup pretty much like Windows and he couldn't work out how to open the web-browser. He isn't a dummy either. He has a masters in Aerospace Engineering and uses Matlab regularly. We are both 36 years of age.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  >I installed Slack using the deb package (on ubuntu). Won't start, no idea why. Just segfaults. So I have to use the browser version of slack. This is a problem with Slack, not with Linux. >X will still hang with certain applications. Sometimes I close the Lid and the laptop never wakes up.I still get screen tearing when moving windows around. This stuff was fixed years ago on Windows. Plasma, the desktop I recommended for end-users, has solved these problems. Years ago. >My friend (who can use Windows 7 just fine), when on my Linux PC and I have it setup pretty much like Windows and he couldn't work out how to open the web-browser I simply don't believe that you know someone who understands how to use Windows and yet couldn't open a web browser on KDE Plasma.
  - thepp1983 8y ago
    > This is a problem with Slack, not with Linux. This the attitude I always get and it stinks. I have sitting on my desk at home an Amiga 1200 (released in 1994). I can download a lha archive with a program in it, extract it and run it. Amiga OS was cutting edge in 1987ish. I still can't do that with a popular flavour of Linux like ubuntu. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to be able to download a package from the internet that is marked as "Ubuntu 18.04", use the package manager to install it and for it to work properly. There is also about 3 or 4 different methods (that are somewhat official) to install applications. Which is crazy. This problem only exists on Linux. > Plasma, the desktop I recommended for end-users, has solved these problems. Years ago. Good for you. Not everyone is running the same setup. The whole "Works For Me" attitude. Again this attitude stinks. > I simply don't believe that you know someone who understands how to use Windows and yet couldn't open a web browser on KDE Plasma. I still have some usage hangups on Windows since the Windows 2000 days and I have a lot of problems with newer versions of windows because I just get confused with the interface. It isn't that uncommon tbh. In the end I've learnt enough powershell now it not an issue for me. For a developer such as myself it is easier to just install WSL, run a VM or use something like vagrant or Docker and just put up with the odd annoyances that Windows 10 presents you with.

alasdair_ 8y ago

>Great let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. About five years ago? More? I've definitely had more issues installing Windows than Ubuntu on random hardware in the last five years.

mschuster91 8y ago

> Great let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue. WINE is pretty decent these days. For what its worth it's even usable for gaming on Macs! (Okay, there only if you stick to older games, but there's no Fallout better than New Vegas anyway)

vetinari 8y ago

> let me know when Linux can run the apps I need for work and I can reliably install it on any hardware and expect it to work without issue Did you ask the respective vendors? It's you who is giving them money; it's on you to ask for what you want. If you don't ask, the sales teams do not know what to work with.

njharman 8y ago

No one is claiming that. They are claiming that if you want an OS that doesn’t spy on you, is secure, and open to inspection then learn to use Linux. Or, to move even further towards security, openBSD.

flukus 8y ago

If users are not willing to face some discomfort then they're welcome to keep getting abused by MS like this, as there is no disincentive not to.