15 ms·

Heres further proof the justice system is screwed. Yesterday I was stopped while driving for not having current tags. Registration was renewed but I didn't have

Heres further proof the justice system is screwed. Yesterday I was stopped while driving for not having current tags. Registration was renewed but I didn't have the sticker yet. Cop looked at my paperwork said all good be back in 5. Come to find out, I haven't had a valid license in 5 years. There was a mistake in court 5 years ago when I paid a fine (speeding ticket). I have a receipt from court saying all settled/money received but court says they never got money. So, after talking to a lawyer yesterday I will be paying another $250 for lawyer fees + court costs to get out of the mistake made by the court in another state 5 years ago. I am lucky. I can pay that. It sucks but some people would be out food money if they suddenly had to pay $500 to drive again. But, I did nothing wrong (except for speeding 6 years ago which I paid the fine and haven't had any issues since) and am stuck paying for the courts mistake.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
Hold the government employees liable (monetarily and criminally if they cause a loss of rights) for their mistakes and the problem will fix itself in quick order.
- raleigh_user 8y ago
  That might help. I am no expert on govt stuff so I will defer to those who are. But it does suck I don't have an ID right now. You never notice how often you use it (travel, bars, events) until you don't have one!
  - joecool1029 8y ago
    Passport card is something I recommend. When traveling in states out of the area, some don't like my license as primary ID. There's a second privacy benefit too, the passport card does not have your address on it for bars that scan licenses and keep the addresses in database.
- allannienhuis 8y ago
  If employees were personally liable for costs of mistakes, no one would do the work - too much personal risk involved. Also, the degree of blaming anyone-but-me would be off the charts, crippling the organization. Having some type of accountability is important - incompetent people should not be allowed to keep their job, and institutions should have some incentive to improve, but not sure putting all the burden on individuals is the right answer. What if you had to pay the cost of every bug you created? I'm sure a lot of us developers would be digging ditches instead. :)
  - Drdrdrq 8y ago
    True. Collective responsibility is a much better solution - then it is in bosses' best interest to create such environment that mistakes have as low impact as possible. And it's up to the whole team to make that happen. Similar to how it is done in (properly managed) software development companies.
  - rabidrat 8y ago
    There are many jobs for which the doer is personally liable. They are required to be bonded and insured so that if anything happens, they don't go bankrupt or otherwise avoid compensating for damages. And there are still people to do the work. Not sure that's the best solution here, but the assumption that "no one would do the work" is likely not correct.
    - allannienhuis 8y ago
      Good point. Although if they're required to be bonded as part of the job requirements, that means they still don't feel the full effect of the cost of their mistakes which is what I think was being proposed. That said, it's a lot closer along that spectrum because I assume their ability to be bonded/insured will be affected by subsequent claims against the bond. I'm also not sure exactly how bonding would work in jobs where blame is hard to determine, or not attributable to a single individual (ie systemic issue). Perhaps that's one of the reasons it's not done more commonly.
- joecool1029 8y ago
  Except they are usually granted immunity by statute. It came up in conversation the other day with a group of friends, the question of 'citizens arrest'. In my state, NJ, anyone can bring a disorderly person in front of a judge or detain someone who's suspected to have committed a major crime. However, it never happens because if we were incorrect then all sorts of civil and criminal claims could be made for injuries and/or false imprisonment. We scoured the state's criminal law and found out members of law enforcement were relieved from liability if they were wrong about the above. The other job that was exempt from liability was librarian. Apparently, a librarian can tackle someone suspected of stealing a book and it's ok under NJ law. [1] [1] https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/section-2c-20-14/ https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/sectio...
allannienhuis 8y ago
It's a shame that costs for fighting issues like that aren't automatically awarded. I have no idea about the relevant laws and how they might be shaped to protect the institutions involved, but it would seem to be a sane way to deal with this type of thing, and provide a small amount of accountability for the institutions (and therefore _some_ incentive to fix systemic issues).
- raleigh_user 8y ago
  Yeah I was kind of shocked when the lawyer said yesterday I'd be on the hook for more costs. I almost assumed it'd be free or credited since it was taken care of and is probably an honest mistake. But, I guess that proves what they say about assumptions!
  - ams6110 8y ago
    If you are hiring a lawyer to help with this, sure you will have to pay his fees, which are probably going to be several hundred dollars at least. Did you try just going into the office of the clerk of the court with the receipt and saying "hey there's been a mistake."
    - raleigh_user 8y ago
      The office of the clerk of court is hours away in another state. And its been the weekend so hasn't been open. Based on the traffic record I pulled on myself yesterday it shows payment never received from the court, although I have a receipt for $312 bucks paid. Maybe a simple fix but Im paying to have someone take care of it. Since I now have a court date in another city I live hours from during a work week.
      - u801e 8y ago
        You might be able to talk to them on the phone and fax them a copy of the receipt you have.
      - aaronharnly 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ams6110 8y ago
This doesn't pass the smell test. If you have a receipt from the court showing that the fine was settled, how can they be saying they never got the money? As an aside this is a good reminder to keep forever any receipts for settlements with courts, the IRS, or other regulators.
- raleigh_user 8y ago
  Ha I kid you not I didn't believe it would pass the smell test either. However I got a $285 ticket proving it yesterday. Courts aren't open on the weekends so my lawyer will be figuring it out tomorrow. I will be in the DMV first thing in the morning to try to get a new license so I can travel home (went to parents house for Holiday). I have to pay a $65 reinstatement fee tomorrow to get a new license as well.
  - Merad 8y ago
    If you're in the Raleigh area as your name suggests, I'd advise you to be there 30+ minutes before they open. Our DMVs are a nightmare right now thanks to Real ID. I had go back in September - got my number at 1:45 PM and was the last person called before the office closed at 5 PM.
- vertex-four 8y ago
  > If you have a receipt from the court showing that the fine was settled, how can they be saying they never got the money? Because they're the ones with the power to give your license back, so you either do what they say or spend the next year without a license trying to work out what went wrong. They're the court - nothing happens to them when they screw up.
  - raleigh_user 8y ago
    yep. Lawyer informed yesterday these types of cases are low priority and will often be continued for months. So each time I had a court date I would be traveling 6ish hours round trip only to have it continued. Since I have a job and am generally not able to travel for 6 hours during the week I will be paying a lawyer to deal with this mistake.
goatsi 8y ago
>I am lucky. I can pay that. It sucks but some people would be out food money if they suddenly had to pay $500 to drive again. Absolutely, court fees and fines disproportionately punish those with low incomes. Increasing enforcement of low level violations by surveillance tech and/or AI is going to crush a lot of people if we don't change that fact. https://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fees-punish-the-poor https://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fe... https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/09/municipal-courts-war-on-poor-people-explained/541395/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/09/municipal-courts-war-...
- burfog 8y ago
  NOTE: not specifically about jaywalking, but about fines/fees being disproportionate punishment in general Jail disproportionately punishes those who are working. (they lose their income source, then they can't pay bills, then their house gets foreclosed, etc.) Ditching punishment entirely means free-for-all anarchy until somebody takes that opportunity to impose a government with punishments. What options are left? Torture? Execution? Ignoring the masochists and the suicidal, those don't disproportionately punish people.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    This manner of thinking is why we have issues such as black people being disproportionately affected by Marijuana laws or large fines/punishments for relatively benign things such as jaywalking. The way we doll out punishment in America ends up being a slap on the wrist for the rich and wealthy and devasting for the poor and minorities.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Well, like Anacharsis told to Solon (the lawmaker) in 6 BC Athens: "[Your] laws are no different from spiders' webs. They'll restrain anyone weak and insignificant who gets caught in them, but they'll be torn to shreds by people with power and wealth".
      - 8y ago
paulie_a 8y ago
Can you file a punitive lawsuit against every single person involved? I mean every single person. Scorched Earth approach. Maybe they will be slightly more attentive to their duties in the future.
- raleigh_user 8y ago
  I dunno. Maybe. But I don't have interest in doing that. Which will probably contribute to this continuing. But its easier for me to just pay and move on. If I were to spend another 10 hours on this there is a time cost to doing so that is not worth it for me.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    Unfortunately sometimes it's just not worth the fight personally. But it's understandable.
    - raleigh_user 8y ago
      yep. My sole focus is being able to travel home tomorrow (legally) and go to work. Else, I am going to get on a bus to go home and uber to and from work for the next few days while this is worked on.
- loeg 8y ago
  (No.)
- EpicEng 8y ago
  No you cannot, but I wonder how you'd feel if you were slapped with a lawsuit every time you wrote a bug.
will_brown 8y ago
It’s funny but at the end of the day what youre talking about is the realization of idiocracy through our implementation of shitty “automation” using software. I mean basically you have a computer system where the court system, law enforcement and DMV are all saying your license is expired for failure to pay...when you actually paid. Now you are getting more tickets and basically stuck in an infinite loop of hell. I’m currently going through the same thing with my Bank (BOA), where my car window was smashed my wallet (credit and debit card stolen) and cards were used by the 2 theives at footlocker for ~$500. The bank software even caught the fraud first and texted me about suspicious activity on the cards before I knew what happened, the cards were reported stolen, I have a police report, but Bank of America keeps denying my claim saying they investigated and the purchase was legit because my “chip was present” even though they know the card was stolen and used by the theives. When I talk to a person it’s always “oh let me reinitiate a new claim and I’ll make detailed notes, you should definitely get your money back, that makes no sense.” Automated claim comes back “denied. Valid transaction, chip present.” Like you I will probably have to take legal action to sort this out, at least in my case I’m a lawyer and can file a small claims case without paying a lawyer, but i will have to front the filing fees out of pocket and it will still cost me time/effort.
- esotericn 8y ago
  Pretty much. The same exists in the UK in all sorts of fields. My preferred strategy is repeated escalation mixed with what I'd call some variant of baby language. "You owe me X, please send me X, your internal processes are broken, please send me X". "No, I don't care about your internal processes, you owe me X, please send me X." "You haven't sent me X yet; can you send me X or do I need to initiate legal action?" So far this has always resulted in me actually getting the X I'm rightfully owed. One day it probably won't. Sigh. Amazon in particular have been amusing WRT this. "Our internal procedure takes X days..." At that point I usually cut them off and remind them that it's none of my business how they run things internally; what I want is resolution for the issue I'm facing.
  - QasimK 8y ago
    I’ve always had excellent, and prompt customer service from Amazon. I’m curious to know what kinds of issues have you encountered where you were unhappy with how they dealt with it?
csomar 8y ago
> Heres further proof the justice system is screwed. I'm confused. Do you live in China or the US. Because the article talks about China.
EpicEng 8y ago
I don't think a minor clerical error demonstrates that "the justice system is screwed." Mistakes will happen and they operate at pretty high volume. I was on the receiving end of one of these years ago. Pulled over and arrested for missing payments on a few tickets. The tickets were paid prior and they eventually realized their mistake, but I still had to pay the jail processing fee. It sucks, and things could certainly be better, but saying that the entire justice system is "screwed" is a pretty harsh indictment.
golergka 8y ago
Wait, why doesn't guilty party pay the court fees and lawyer expenses?
rorykoehler 8y ago
Surely part of this process is to sue the courts to cover your legal fees and time?
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
I was pulled over multiple times in NJ while driving with a valid, registered out of state license plate. Somebody's LPR software is conveniently flagging valid plates as an excuse to make traffic stops.
bighi 8y ago
Every time I see people from the US saying stuff like that I am reminded how "justice" in the US is basically a money game instead of real justice. Why. Is. This. Not. Free? Righting a wrong done to you, specially small ones, should be completely free.

lotsofpulp 8y ago

Hold the government employees liable (monetarily and criminally if they cause a loss of rights) for their mistakes and the problem will fix itself in quick order.

raleigh_user 8y ago
That might help. I am no expert on govt stuff so I will defer to those who are. But it does suck I don't have an ID right now. You never notice how often you use it (travel, bars, events) until you don't have one!
- joecool1029 8y ago
  Passport card is something I recommend. When traveling in states out of the area, some don't like my license as primary ID. There's a second privacy benefit too, the passport card does not have your address on it for bars that scan licenses and keep the addresses in database.
allannienhuis 8y ago
If employees were personally liable for costs of mistakes, no one would do the work - too much personal risk involved. Also, the degree of blaming anyone-but-me would be off the charts, crippling the organization. Having some type of accountability is important - incompetent people should not be allowed to keep their job, and institutions should have some incentive to improve, but not sure putting all the burden on individuals is the right answer. What if you had to pay the cost of every bug you created? I'm sure a lot of us developers would be digging ditches instead. :)
- Drdrdrq 8y ago
  True. Collective responsibility is a much better solution - then it is in bosses' best interest to create such environment that mistakes have as low impact as possible. And it's up to the whole team to make that happen. Similar to how it is done in (properly managed) software development companies.
- rabidrat 8y ago
  There are many jobs for which the doer is personally liable. They are required to be bonded and insured so that if anything happens, they don't go bankrupt or otherwise avoid compensating for damages. And there are still people to do the work. Not sure that's the best solution here, but the assumption that "no one would do the work" is likely not correct.
  - allannienhuis 8y ago
    Good point. Although if they're required to be bonded as part of the job requirements, that means they still don't feel the full effect of the cost of their mistakes which is what I think was being proposed. That said, it's a lot closer along that spectrum because I assume their ability to be bonded/insured will be affected by subsequent claims against the bond. I'm also not sure exactly how bonding would work in jobs where blame is hard to determine, or not attributable to a single individual (ie systemic issue). Perhaps that's one of the reasons it's not done more commonly.
joecool1029 8y ago
Except they are usually granted immunity by statute. It came up in conversation the other day with a group of friends, the question of 'citizens arrest'. In my state, NJ, anyone can bring a disorderly person in front of a judge or detain someone who's suspected to have committed a major crime. However, it never happens because if we were incorrect then all sorts of civil and criminal claims could be made for injuries and/or false imprisonment. We scoured the state's criminal law and found out members of law enforcement were relieved from liability if they were wrong about the above. The other job that was exempt from liability was librarian. Apparently, a librarian can tackle someone suspected of stealing a book and it's ok under NJ law. [1] [1] https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/section-2c-20-14/ https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/sectio...

allannienhuis 8y ago

It's a shame that costs for fighting issues like that aren't automatically awarded. I have no idea about the relevant laws and how they might be shaped to protect the institutions involved, but it would seem to be a sane way to deal with this type of thing, and provide a small amount of accountability for the institutions (and therefore _some_ incentive to fix systemic issues).

raleigh_user 8y ago
Yeah I was kind of shocked when the lawyer said yesterday I'd be on the hook for more costs. I almost assumed it'd be free or credited since it was taken care of and is probably an honest mistake. But, I guess that proves what they say about assumptions!
- ams6110 8y ago
  If you are hiring a lawyer to help with this, sure you will have to pay his fees, which are probably going to be several hundred dollars at least. Did you try just going into the office of the clerk of the court with the receipt and saying "hey there's been a mistake."
  - raleigh_user 8y ago
    The office of the clerk of court is hours away in another state. And its been the weekend so hasn't been open. Based on the traffic record I pulled on myself yesterday it shows payment never received from the court, although I have a receipt for $312 bucks paid. Maybe a simple fix but Im paying to have someone take care of it. Since I now have a court date in another city I live hours from during a work week.
    - u801e 8y ago
      You might be able to talk to them on the phone and fax them a copy of the receipt you have.
    - aaronharnly 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ams6110 8y ago

This doesn't pass the smell test. If you have a receipt from the court showing that the fine was settled, how can they be saying they never got the money? As an aside this is a good reminder to keep forever any receipts for settlements with courts, the IRS, or other regulators.

raleigh_user 8y ago
Ha I kid you not I didn't believe it would pass the smell test either. However I got a $285 ticket proving it yesterday. Courts aren't open on the weekends so my lawyer will be figuring it out tomorrow. I will be in the DMV first thing in the morning to try to get a new license so I can travel home (went to parents house for Holiday). I have to pay a $65 reinstatement fee tomorrow to get a new license as well.
- Merad 8y ago
  If you're in the Raleigh area as your name suggests, I'd advise you to be there 30+ minutes before they open. Our DMVs are a nightmare right now thanks to Real ID. I had go back in September - got my number at 1:45 PM and was the last person called before the office closed at 5 PM.
vertex-four 8y ago
> If you have a receipt from the court showing that the fine was settled, how can they be saying they never got the money? Because they're the ones with the power to give your license back, so you either do what they say or spend the next year without a license trying to work out what went wrong. They're the court - nothing happens to them when they screw up.
- raleigh_user 8y ago
  yep. Lawyer informed yesterday these types of cases are low priority and will often be continued for months. So each time I had a court date I would be traveling 6ish hours round trip only to have it continued. Since I have a job and am generally not able to travel for 6 hours during the week I will be paying a lawyer to deal with this mistake.

goatsi 8y ago

>I am lucky. I can pay that. It sucks but some people would be out food money if they suddenly had to pay $500 to drive again. Absolutely, court fees and fines disproportionately punish those with low incomes. Increasing enforcement of low level violations by surveillance tech and/or AI is going to crush a lot of people if we don't change that fact. https://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fees-punish-the-poor https://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fe... https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/09/municipal-courts-war-on-poor-people-explained/541395/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/09/municipal-courts-war-...

burfog 8y ago
NOTE: not specifically about jaywalking, but about fines/fees being disproportionate punishment in general Jail disproportionately punishes those who are working. (they lose their income source, then they can't pay bills, then their house gets foreclosed, etc.) Ditching punishment entirely means free-for-all anarchy until somebody takes that opportunity to impose a government with punishments. What options are left? Torture? Execution? Ignoring the masochists and the suicidal, those don't disproportionately punish people.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  This manner of thinking is why we have issues such as black people being disproportionately affected by Marijuana laws or large fines/punishments for relatively benign things such as jaywalking. The way we doll out punishment in America ends up being a slap on the wrist for the rich and wealthy and devasting for the poor and minorities.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Well, like Anacharsis told to Solon (the lawmaker) in 6 BC Athens: "[Your] laws are no different from spiders' webs. They'll restrain anyone weak and insignificant who gets caught in them, but they'll be torn to shreds by people with power and wealth".
    - 8y ago

paulie_a 8y ago

Can you file a punitive lawsuit against every single person involved? I mean every single person. Scorched Earth approach. Maybe they will be slightly more attentive to their duties in the future.

raleigh_user 8y ago
I dunno. Maybe. But I don't have interest in doing that. Which will probably contribute to this continuing. But its easier for me to just pay and move on. If I were to spend another 10 hours on this there is a time cost to doing so that is not worth it for me.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  Unfortunately sometimes it's just not worth the fight personally. But it's understandable.
  - raleigh_user 8y ago
    yep. My sole focus is being able to travel home tomorrow (legally) and go to work. Else, I am going to get on a bus to go home and uber to and from work for the next few days while this is worked on.
loeg 8y ago
(No.)
EpicEng 8y ago
No you cannot, but I wonder how you'd feel if you were slapped with a lawsuit every time you wrote a bug.

will_brown 8y ago

It’s funny but at the end of the day what youre talking about is the realization of idiocracy through our implementation of shitty “automation” using software. I mean basically you have a computer system where the court system, law enforcement and DMV are all saying your license is expired for failure to pay...when you actually paid. Now you are getting more tickets and basically stuck in an infinite loop of hell. I’m currently going through the same thing with my Bank (BOA), where my car window was smashed my wallet (credit and debit card stolen) and cards were used by the 2 theives at footlocker for ~$500. The bank software even caught the fraud first and texted me about suspicious activity on the cards before I knew what happened, the cards were reported stolen, I have a police report, but Bank of America keeps denying my claim saying they investigated and the purchase was legit because my “chip was present” even though they know the card was stolen and used by the theives. When I talk to a person it’s always “oh let me reinitiate a new claim and I’ll make detailed notes, you should definitely get your money back, that makes no sense.” Automated claim comes back “denied. Valid transaction, chip present.” Like you I will probably have to take legal action to sort this out, at least in my case I’m a lawyer and can file a small claims case without paying a lawyer, but i will have to front the filing fees out of pocket and it will still cost me time/effort.

esotericn 8y ago
Pretty much. The same exists in the UK in all sorts of fields. My preferred strategy is repeated escalation mixed with what I'd call some variant of baby language. "You owe me X, please send me X, your internal processes are broken, please send me X". "No, I don't care about your internal processes, you owe me X, please send me X." "You haven't sent me X yet; can you send me X or do I need to initiate legal action?" So far this has always resulted in me actually getting the X I'm rightfully owed. One day it probably won't. Sigh. Amazon in particular have been amusing WRT this. "Our internal procedure takes X days..." At that point I usually cut them off and remind them that it's none of my business how they run things internally; what I want is resolution for the issue I'm facing.
- QasimK 8y ago
  I’ve always had excellent, and prompt customer service from Amazon. I’m curious to know what kinds of issues have you encountered where you were unhappy with how they dealt with it?

csomar 8y ago

> Heres further proof the justice system is screwed. I'm confused. Do you live in China or the US. Because the article talks about China.

EpicEng 8y ago

I don't think a minor clerical error demonstrates that "the justice system is screwed." Mistakes will happen and they operate at pretty high volume. I was on the receiving end of one of these years ago. Pulled over and arrested for missing payments on a few tickets. The tickets were paid prior and they eventually realized their mistake, but I still had to pay the jail processing fee. It sucks, and things could certainly be better, but saying that the entire justice system is "screwed" is a pretty harsh indictment.

golergka 8y ago

Wait, why doesn't guilty party pay the court fees and lawyer expenses?

rorykoehler 8y ago

Surely part of this process is to sue the courts to cover your legal fees and time?

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago

I was pulled over multiple times in NJ while driving with a valid, registered out of state license plate. Somebody's LPR software is conveniently flagging valid plates as an excuse to make traffic stops.

bighi 8y ago

Every time I see people from the US saying stuff like that I am reminded how "justice" in the US is basically a money game instead of real justice. Why. Is. This. Not. Free? Righting a wrong done to you, specially small ones, should be completely free.