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How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the man

by grardb 8y ago

How could you possibly come to that conclusion? > The military is known for being a bastion of sexism, but I had a worse experience at Amazon. > . . . the managers do not get any sort of break or lunch. Most of us just never ate. Everyone is on their feet for 12 hours a day. > Associates got a 30-minute lunch break, two 15-minute breaks, and an additional 15 minutes of “time off tasks.” Working 12 hours per day with a total of only 1 hour of break time, split into three smaller breaks – and all tracked to the minute? And no lunch for managers? > The associates work 10 hours a day, the managers 14 to 18. It’s mandatory overtime, the hours are not voluntary, and they are all on your feet. Do you really think this is acceptable? To be honest, I'm quite sick of the general attitude on HN towards Amazon. I get that it's convenient and usually cheaper than its competitors. But let's not pretend that the way they do business is morally acceptable. It isn't. This is absurd. Instead of trying to convince yourselves that it's Not That Bad, why not vote with your dollars and support businesses that treat their employees better? From what I can tell, most people reading HN have the means to do so. (Edited to better follow HN guidelines.)

umanwizard 8y ago
> (Bring on the downvotes, Prime members.) Wasn't gonna downvote you until I got to this line.
stochastic_monk 8y ago
You make good points, but accuse the gp of not reading the article and talk about post scoring, both of which are against guidelines.
- Stratoscope 8y ago
  And this too: > I'm quite sick of the average HN commenter's attitude towards Amazon. Which is a bit insulting, as there is no "average HN commenter." We are all individuals and deserve to be treated as such.
hedvig 8y ago
I don't know that its specific to Amazon but more generally comes from a core ideology of abiding by concepts of free market rules to the exclusion of concepts of humanity.
- Alex63 8y ago
  Just to be clear, in this case "free market rules" include: 1. Most customers choose to buy from the seller with the lowest price. 2. Employees are free to leave their employment if they find the conditions intolerable. Which of these rules do you want to change?
  - n4r9 8y ago
    Sure the issue is when employees don't feel like they can leave, because they can't afford a period of unemployment and don't have the time/energy to seek new employment whilst working 12 hour shifts and potentially supporting a family.
    - umanwizard 8y ago
      How is that Amazon’s fault or problem? Is your issue with Amazon, or with the system of capitalism in general? If the latter, why are people criticizing Amazon specifically?
      - n4r9 8y ago
        It's a general criticism of the system. Highlighting Amazon's particular behaviour is useful as a demonstration of how/where the system fails, and may produce short term wins if it incentivises amazon to stop being inhumane.
        Alex63 8y ago
        I sincerely don't want to oversimplify your argument, but it seems like the logical end-point would be a global socialist/communist society. Is that your desired/intended outcome?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
cik2e 8y ago
From what I understand, many hourly workers look forward to the rare opportunity of getting paid 1.5x to work overtime. Also, a lot of the workers in these industries are hired as seasonal temps for the holidays. The salaried managers sound like they have it pretty rough, but I'm guessing that this is actually a pretty good job in the hourly category.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  >From what I understand, many hourly workers look forward to the rare opportunity of getting paid 1.5x to work overtime. Nobody looks forward to working extra hours at a job that is already tiring. What they look forward to is the chance for a brief respite from the constant stress of poverty, even if it comes at great cost to everything else in their lives. Source: worked as a welder in a shipyard after the first dotcom crash. Took all the overtime I could get, because bills don't pay themselves. I enjoyed the work in a general sense, and my coworkers, but a human body can only push itself so hard before there are long-term consequences, and that is something that most hourly workers have to deal with over their entire careers. tl;dr- "Looking forward" to overtime is like saying that someone who is drowning is "looking forward" to breathing.
intopieces 8y ago
Will you be more specific on the moral aspect here? Because from the article, it seems like the individuals working in the warehouse are compensated at a rate they agreed to (not being cheated of wages), are safe (no unsafe work practices are revealed here), and are given clear guidelines about their work tasks and standards (not being fired for discriminatory reasons). I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, so I will not make any flippant summaries of your post. I just want to know what Amazon would have to do to become moral: how long should the breaks be? How should they modify their performance policies? Etc.
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  > it seems like the individuals working in the warehouse are compensated at a rate they agreed to (not being cheated of wages) This argument implies that workers are on equal footing with employers when negotiating for wages. You forget that not all industries are like ours. We've created a world full of pointless cruelty. "How long should the breaks be" is the wrong question to ask. Progress, to me, would look like a lot more workers doing a lot less work, and being compensated at a level which gives them financial security. Unpleasant work takes a toll on people. 8 hours should not be the goal, it should be the maximum.
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  when people are tired, stressed, and rushed, unsafe situations naturally arise.
- johnchristopher 8y ago
  18 hours of work is unsafe whatever the job is.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- nerder92 8y ago
  > I just want to know what Amazon would have to do to become moral 1. 8h/day max 2. double pay extra work and limit the maximum amount to +3h 3. not 'monitoring' bathroom breaks 4. not fire people on the spot, give them warnings and help them improve 5. don't use metrics as a weapon agains them, instead build programs that help improvements 6. let workers to pack seated as well (to not stay 8h on their feet) 7. hire more occasional workers for very peak days (ie: BF, CM) 8. Not fire for sick leaves nor holidays leaves 9. Not fire for taking holidays during BF This are the first 9 thing that i can come out with. It's interesting for me anyway how many of the things related to Unions and workers rights the are at the center of the debate in the US now, are either illegal or totally unacceptable in EU.
amelius 8y ago
Still, Amazon is probably treating their workers better than the average Chinese electronics factory or Indian textile company.
- krapp 8y ago
  And every employee is being treated better than chattel slaves, but that doesn't mean only chattel slaves have a reason to complain.
  - amelius 8y ago
    I didn't mean to imply anything like that, but instead that we shouldn't fool ourselves when we use our electronic devices or put on our clothes. It's not like bad work conditions are a new thing. We have been profiting from them for a long time. It's always easier to look the other way and find a scapegoat.
throwaway98121 8y ago
Yeah, I think this is perfectly acceptable. If you don’t, don’t work for Amazon. Easy. I worked 12 hour days with a horrible boss as a fresh grad and only made $65k a year with a CS degree. This cat made $80k with a high school qualification, yet he still complains about a job he knowingly accepted. I’m very interested to learn about Amazon tech, but instead I see an article just about everyday about how Amazon is some horrible sweatshop.
- random314 8y ago
  Your post is false. This guy had an MBA. And he is not complaining about his salary.
dang 8y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines, regardless of wrong or annoying another comment is. "Did you even the read the article" is explicitly against the rules. So is downvote-baiting, and flamewar generally. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by grardb 8y ago

umanwizard 8y ago

> (Bring on the downvotes, Prime members.) Wasn't gonna downvote you until I got to this line.

stochastic_monk 8y ago

You make good points, but accuse the gp of not reading the article and talk about post scoring, both of which are against guidelines.

Stratoscope 8y ago
And this too: > I'm quite sick of the average HN commenter's attitude towards Amazon. Which is a bit insulting, as there is no "average HN commenter." We are all individuals and deserve to be treated as such.

hedvig 8y ago

I don't know that its specific to Amazon but more generally comes from a core ideology of abiding by concepts of free market rules to the exclusion of concepts of humanity.

Alex63 8y ago
Just to be clear, in this case "free market rules" include: 1. Most customers choose to buy from the seller with the lowest price. 2. Employees are free to leave their employment if they find the conditions intolerable. Which of these rules do you want to change?
- n4r9 8y ago
  Sure the issue is when employees don't feel like they can leave, because they can't afford a period of unemployment and don't have the time/energy to seek new employment whilst working 12 hour shifts and potentially supporting a family.
  - umanwizard 8y ago
    How is that Amazon’s fault or problem? Is your issue with Amazon, or with the system of capitalism in general? If the latter, why are people criticizing Amazon specifically?
    - n4r9 8y ago
      It's a general criticism of the system. Highlighting Amazon's particular behaviour is useful as a demonstration of how/where the system fails, and may produce short term wins if it incentivises amazon to stop being inhumane.
      - Alex63 8y ago
        I sincerely don't want to oversimplify your argument, but it seems like the logical end-point would be a global socialist/communist society. Is that your desired/intended outcome?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

cik2e 8y ago

From what I understand, many hourly workers look forward to the rare opportunity of getting paid 1.5x to work overtime. Also, a lot of the workers in these industries are hired as seasonal temps for the holidays. The salaried managers sound like they have it pretty rough, but I'm guessing that this is actually a pretty good job in the hourly category.

Baeocystin 8y ago
>From what I understand, many hourly workers look forward to the rare opportunity of getting paid 1.5x to work overtime. Nobody looks forward to working extra hours at a job that is already tiring. What they look forward to is the chance for a brief respite from the constant stress of poverty, even if it comes at great cost to everything else in their lives. Source: worked as a welder in a shipyard after the first dotcom crash. Took all the overtime I could get, because bills don't pay themselves. I enjoyed the work in a general sense, and my coworkers, but a human body can only push itself so hard before there are long-term consequences, and that is something that most hourly workers have to deal with over their entire careers. tl;dr- "Looking forward" to overtime is like saying that someone who is drowning is "looking forward" to breathing.

intopieces 8y ago

Will you be more specific on the moral aspect here? Because from the article, it seems like the individuals working in the warehouse are compensated at a rate they agreed to (not being cheated of wages), are safe (no unsafe work practices are revealed here), and are given clear guidelines about their work tasks and standards (not being fired for discriminatory reasons). I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, so I will not make any flippant summaries of your post. I just want to know what Amazon would have to do to become moral: how long should the breaks be? How should they modify their performance policies? Etc.

jniedrauer 8y ago
> it seems like the individuals working in the warehouse are compensated at a rate they agreed to (not being cheated of wages) This argument implies that workers are on equal footing with employers when negotiating for wages. You forget that not all industries are like ours. We've created a world full of pointless cruelty. "How long should the breaks be" is the wrong question to ask. Progress, to me, would look like a lot more workers doing a lot less work, and being compensated at a level which gives them financial security. Unpleasant work takes a toll on people. 8 hours should not be the goal, it should be the maximum.
nikofeyn 8y ago
when people are tired, stressed, and rushed, unsafe situations naturally arise.
johnchristopher 8y ago
18 hours of work is unsafe whatever the job is.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
nerder92 8y ago
> I just want to know what Amazon would have to do to become moral 1. 8h/day max 2. double pay extra work and limit the maximum amount to +3h 3. not 'monitoring' bathroom breaks 4. not fire people on the spot, give them warnings and help them improve 5. don't use metrics as a weapon agains them, instead build programs that help improvements 6. let workers to pack seated as well (to not stay 8h on their feet) 7. hire more occasional workers for very peak days (ie: BF, CM) 8. Not fire for sick leaves nor holidays leaves 9. Not fire for taking holidays during BF This are the first 9 thing that i can come out with. It's interesting for me anyway how many of the things related to Unions and workers rights the are at the center of the debate in the US now, are either illegal or totally unacceptable in EU.

amelius 8y ago

Still, Amazon is probably treating their workers better than the average Chinese electronics factory or Indian textile company.

krapp 8y ago
And every employee is being treated better than chattel slaves, but that doesn't mean only chattel slaves have a reason to complain.
- amelius 8y ago
  I didn't mean to imply anything like that, but instead that we shouldn't fool ourselves when we use our electronic devices or put on our clothes. It's not like bad work conditions are a new thing. We have been profiting from them for a long time. It's always easier to look the other way and find a scapegoat.

throwaway98121 8y ago

Yeah, I think this is perfectly acceptable. If you don’t, don’t work for Amazon. Easy. I worked 12 hour days with a horrible boss as a fresh grad and only made $65k a year with a CS degree. This cat made $80k with a high school qualification, yet he still complains about a job he knowingly accepted. I’m very interested to learn about Amazon tech, but instead I see an article just about everyday about how Amazon is some horrible sweatshop.

random314 8y ago
Your post is false. This guy had an MBA. And he is not complaining about his salary.

dang 8y ago

Please don't break the site guidelines, regardless of wrong or annoying another comment is. "Did you even the read the article" is explicitly against the rules. So is downvote-baiting, and flamewar generally. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html