5 ms·

Now that you’re aware of it, have you talked to her about that? That’s a very common form of “emotional labor” that women find themselves responsible for, and i

Now that you’re aware of it, have you talked to her about that? That’s a very common form of “emotional labor” that women find themselves responsible for, and it can be exhausting. Relevant comic: https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

salan781 8y ago
Why is specific to women..?
- cimmanom 8y ago
  It doesn’t have to be. It’s just something that most often falls to women due to our current culture. The link explains in more detail.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - always_good 8y ago
    The comic is basically "women have harder lives when they have low standards for the man they let knock them up."
    - dmix 8y ago
      I can't imagine walking into a kitchen then blaming my wife because of a pot of spaghetti overflowed, especially when she was busy dealing with two kids AND had her friends over. Or expect her to make dinner for me, the kids, and her friends all by herself. I also can't imagine any of the men I know would do that...which the comic describes as a 'common scenario for many parents'. That sounds like a low quality partner issue, not a gender role issue.
      - mcv 8y ago
        What strikes me about the comic is that the guest is talking to the husband, while she's there for the wife. It would make a lot more sense in this situation if the husband took care of the kids while the wife took care of her guest.
kjjjzzzz7zg 8y ago
Drivel, suggesting all men are slobs, and male professions are all just fun and games. Here is some free one minute self help advice: if your partner is a slob, you can split up. If you being with him feels like "labor" to you, you probably should.
andai 8y ago
This is a fascinating comic, thank you for sharing. The mental load sounds like it could be largely resolved by GTD, since eliminating mental load is the reason GTD was invented. And if it's a shared system (eg whiteboard in kitchen) then the man/breadwinner can see at a glance what needs done and pick up tasks without having to ask. Of course, there's a much more elegant solution, but I will leave it as an exercise for the reader :)
- close04 8y ago
  The comic is eye opening but kind of one sided. My partner never wondered how the car (that she rides in every day) gets cleaned or the oil gets changed, how the tires seamlessly switch between seasons, how the filter on the dishwasher or washing machine get cleaned, how ours is the only shower drain in the world that doesn't get clogged with long hairs, how every hernia inducing item just moves to the right spot by itself, how computers get updated, and dozens of minor annoyances get fixed around the house, etc. The difference is I don't ask her to do it, and I don't broadcast what I'm doing to end up on a list. It needs to be done so I do it. If you keep tally you will not have a good time either way. On the other hand stuff I don't need or want moved (my work stuff in my closed home office) always gets "ordered" according to her standards so I have my doubts about whether much of that behavior is society's fault or some people's innate wish to see some things done a certain way or in a certain order. It has to be done based on an internal list of needs or ideals, not because society says my stuff has to be ordered by her standards. When you're substantially better at something just do it. Your partner will do the stuff they're better at. The rest gets split or shared with a simple prior arrangement. If the result is what matters don't get stuck on the how. And if something doesn't need to be done, don't do it. You'll expend mental and physical energy for no good reason.
  - techie128 8y ago
    Great, I came here to type out a similar response. You forgot big things like managing finances including investments, saving for kids, home refinancing, insurance payments, etc. The difference in my household is that I, the husband, not only do all the things that you're talking about but also provide "Boss as a service" for my wife. It puts a ridiculous amount of load on me and burns me out. The difference as you correctly pointed out is men tend to "man up" and just do it.
everdrive 8y ago
Yep. We all want them doing this service. They are truly obligated both on a local, personal level, and then in a wider sense by society. Everyone is happy that they are providing this, and we all agree that they are definitely experiencing this real need, and not projecting something into the world that's actually just going on in their heads.
austincheney 8y ago
In hindsight its amazing how stupid and unaware people are as young new parents (myself included). Now, at my riper age, that sort of help is like an automatic reflex.
asabjorn 8y ago
If you are basing this on the PSID report they are only counting household chores typically done by women, so their numbers can't be trusted [1] and are heavily politicised by people seeking to further a particular ideology through using statistics that intentionally misrepresent the world: "Housework was defined as “core chores,” or routine housework that people generally do not enjoy doing such as washing dishes, laundry, vacuuming floors and dusting … Routine housework, like cooking dinner or making beds, was captured … . Other activities such as home repairs, mowing the lawn, and shoveling snow were not in the study. Items such as gardening are usually viewed as more enjoyable; the focus here is on core housework." Also, in addition to the chores that are not counted men tend to sacrifice at a higher rate in other ways to provide for the family. They have longer commutes and more frequently work away from home [2], and on average work longer hours when working fulltime [3]. Women also more frequently work part-time with a man supporting the family doing the sacrifices mentioned here [4]. We are happy to do all of this, but the deal is that one partner don't get to discount what the other do and then talk bad about how we all contribute to the whole based upon this misrepresentation. [1] https://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=111458 https://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=111458 [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/201501/commuting-the-stress-doesnt-pay https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/20150... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-report-men-work-longer-hours-than-women/#41c2e87718b4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-repo... [4] http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millennial-women-near-parity-for-now/sdt-gender-and-work-12-2013-1-05/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millenn...
- palimpsests 8y ago
  Emotional labor is not referring to the completion of material tasks / chores, nor is it referring to the amount of hours completed at a workplace. So I'm not sure what it is that you're trying to communicate by responding to a comment that was specifically about emotional labor with this comment - emotional labor has nothing to do with "talking bad" about relative degrees of contribution in a relationship. edit: now I see - it's related to the comic in the GP comment. That comment implies that the comic is explaining emotional labor, but it isn't (the comic pretty much states this in the final panel). So that GP comment confused the thread. I'll respond directly to that comment.
palimpsests 8y ago
While it tangentially touches on it, this comic is not talking specifically about emotional labor - the final panel even says "In a future comic I'll talk about emotional work, which also gets heaped onto women." For anyone interested, here are some resources on emotional labor: - https://www.fastcompany.com/90268277/men-emotional-labor-is-your-problem-too https://www.fastcompany.com/90268277/men-emotional-labor-is-... - https://www.forbes.com/sites/melodywilding/2018/06/06/dont-be-the-office-mom-how-emotional-labor-affects-womens-careers/#48602bd11103 https://www.forbes.com/sites/melodywilding/2018/06/06/dont-b... - https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/7-ways-men-must-learn-to-do-emotional-labor-in-their-relationships/ https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/7-ways-men-must-l...
ascar 8y ago
That's an interesting comic. Though I think it's very one-sided especially in the last parts and written from the point of a women, who had bad luck with her partner. Staying with these stereotypes there are other mental tasks that a man would have on his mind like keeping the car running: changing tires, changing oil, etc. Anecdotally: I did a big junk of the organizational stuff for my girlfriend during her five years of university (we basically met a month before she started) including pushing her through her bachelor and master thesis. Basically I kept a mental todo list for her and kept nagging her "like a boss". I also organized us moving different places, getting insurances, setting up contracts (like for tv and internet), shopping for tech, getting her car fixed and planning our holidays. I also organized and execute all the household related fixing. That's mostly stuff that happens on occasion and takes a lot of time and mental capacity then, but is not a daily load. On the other hand she does a lot of the daily load stuff like washing, shopping and cleaning (basically because I'm fine cleaning once every 2 weeks when I can actually see the dust lying around, but she gets furious at this point). I probably do not appreciate this enough from a mental load / organizational point of view. I'm sure though that I will be the one keeping track of doctor appointments and nannies, when we have kids, while she will keeping track of feeding, grocery shopping and changing diapers. I hopefully will remember this post and appreciate the small, but frequent and steady organizational load she takes and not only think about the rarer, bigger ones I take care off.
- mcv 8y ago
  > That's an interesting comic. Though I think it's very one-sided Of course. It provides a perspective, not all perspectives. But it's an important perspective. Not every household is this skewed in responsibilities, but many are. And just paying a bit of attention to what's going on and taking on some of these responsibilities, can alleviate a lot of stress. It's certainly something I need to do more.
cellularmitosis 8y ago
This comic addresses a very real issue, but I feel it is more universal than the feminist angle would imply. This same drama unfolds anytime you have people cohabitating who have different tolerances / thresholds / standards for how and how often they expect cleanliness and tidyness issues to be handled. If those thresholds don’t match, and especially if one person is more conflict-averse than the other, typically one person will volunteer to suffer in silence, take most of the burden for themselves, bottle up resentment, and then explode in a “I always / you never” fight. Every male I know who has male roommates during college has their own version of this story.
rangersanger 8y ago
This was a good reminder, habits are hard to break. As others have pointed out, the comic is a bit one sided, but it's trying to make a point, so whatever. However, the comic does fail to recognize that the priorities of the woman (in this case) are also societal constructs. In the same way that women are taught to be the cleaners and boys are taught to go off to "save the world," women are also taught to value things like a tidy home. There's no inherent value in not keeping my jeans on the floor of the bedroom. That's something that women writ large have been taught to value. If the men are being encouraged to think about what society has taught them to do, and change it based on this comic, I think it's only fair that the women also take a minute and consider the same.
pitt1980 8y ago
Not sure if supposed to feel bad about this or not, but ... 10 years ago, when my wife and I had been married less than a month, there was an occasion when the dishes piled up in the sink, and my wife got upset, and asked why had hadn't I noticed them, and why hadn't it bother me enough to clean them up without her having to ask me. The reality was, I'm not sure I had noticed it, sometimes I get lost in my own world, I have a different perception of what parts of the world need my attention than my wife does, not that my perception is better (its often worse), anyway, we had a discussion where I stated that if she would like my help with something, a polite "hey, would you mind [cleaning the dishes, some other X, etc]" will almost always elicit a "sure", then me doing it, unless there is an extremely specific reason I'm unable to help her at that exact moment, I'm not going to refuse a request for help I'm happy we had that talk, I think it significantly improved the communication in our marriage I don't want her strewing over me not doing something that I'm oblivious to, (and sometimes I am oblivious to stuff) after a few requests for the same type of help, I do get in the habit of anticipating that a particular help is needed, and try to do it before that help is formally requested (the sink rarely fills up with dishes these days)

salan781 8y ago

Why is specific to women..?

cimmanom 8y ago
It doesn’t have to be. It’s just something that most often falls to women due to our current culture. The link explains in more detail.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- always_good 8y ago
  The comic is basically "women have harder lives when they have low standards for the man they let knock them up."
  - dmix 8y ago
    I can't imagine walking into a kitchen then blaming my wife because of a pot of spaghetti overflowed, especially when she was busy dealing with two kids AND had her friends over. Or expect her to make dinner for me, the kids, and her friends all by herself. I also can't imagine any of the men I know would do that...which the comic describes as a 'common scenario for many parents'. That sounds like a low quality partner issue, not a gender role issue.
    - mcv 8y ago
      What strikes me about the comic is that the guest is talking to the husband, while she's there for the wife. It would make a lot more sense in this situation if the husband took care of the kids while the wife took care of her guest.

kjjjzzzz7zg 8y ago

Drivel, suggesting all men are slobs, and male professions are all just fun and games. Here is some free one minute self help advice: if your partner is a slob, you can split up. If you being with him feels like "labor" to you, you probably should.

andai 8y ago

This is a fascinating comic, thank you for sharing. The mental load sounds like it could be largely resolved by GTD, since eliminating mental load is the reason GTD was invented. And if it's a shared system (eg whiteboard in kitchen) then the man/breadwinner can see at a glance what needs done and pick up tasks without having to ask. Of course, there's a much more elegant solution, but I will leave it as an exercise for the reader :)

close04 8y ago
The comic is eye opening but kind of one sided. My partner never wondered how the car (that she rides in every day) gets cleaned or the oil gets changed, how the tires seamlessly switch between seasons, how the filter on the dishwasher or washing machine get cleaned, how ours is the only shower drain in the world that doesn't get clogged with long hairs, how every hernia inducing item just moves to the right spot by itself, how computers get updated, and dozens of minor annoyances get fixed around the house, etc. The difference is I don't ask her to do it, and I don't broadcast what I'm doing to end up on a list. It needs to be done so I do it. If you keep tally you will not have a good time either way. On the other hand stuff I don't need or want moved (my work stuff in my closed home office) always gets "ordered" according to her standards so I have my doubts about whether much of that behavior is society's fault or some people's innate wish to see some things done a certain way or in a certain order. It has to be done based on an internal list of needs or ideals, not because society says my stuff has to be ordered by her standards. When you're substantially better at something just do it. Your partner will do the stuff they're better at. The rest gets split or shared with a simple prior arrangement. If the result is what matters don't get stuck on the how. And if something doesn't need to be done, don't do it. You'll expend mental and physical energy for no good reason.
- techie128 8y ago
  Great, I came here to type out a similar response. You forgot big things like managing finances including investments, saving for kids, home refinancing, insurance payments, etc. The difference in my household is that I, the husband, not only do all the things that you're talking about but also provide "Boss as a service" for my wife. It puts a ridiculous amount of load on me and burns me out. The difference as you correctly pointed out is men tend to "man up" and just do it.

everdrive 8y ago

Yep. We all want them doing this service. They are truly obligated both on a local, personal level, and then in a wider sense by society. Everyone is happy that they are providing this, and we all agree that they are definitely experiencing this real need, and not projecting something into the world that's actually just going on in their heads.

austincheney 8y ago

In hindsight its amazing how stupid and unaware people are as young new parents (myself included). Now, at my riper age, that sort of help is like an automatic reflex.

asabjorn 8y ago

If you are basing this on the PSID report they are only counting household chores typically done by women, so their numbers can't be trusted [1] and are heavily politicised by people seeking to further a particular ideology through using statistics that intentionally misrepresent the world: "Housework was defined as “core chores,” or routine housework that people generally do not enjoy doing such as washing dishes, laundry, vacuuming floors and dusting … Routine housework, like cooking dinner or making beds, was captured … . Other activities such as home repairs, mowing the lawn, and shoveling snow were not in the study. Items such as gardening are usually viewed as more enjoyable; the focus here is on core housework." Also, in addition to the chores that are not counted men tend to sacrifice at a higher rate in other ways to provide for the family. They have longer commutes and more frequently work away from home [2], and on average work longer hours when working fulltime [3]. Women also more frequently work part-time with a man supporting the family doing the sacrifices mentioned here [4]. We are happy to do all of this, but the deal is that one partner don't get to discount what the other do and then talk bad about how we all contribute to the whole based upon this misrepresentation. [1] https://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=111458 https://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=111458 [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/201501/commuting-the-stress-doesnt-pay https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/20150... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-report-men-work-longer-hours-than-women/#41c2e87718b4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/06/30/new-repo... [4] http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millennial-women-near-parity-for-now/sdt-gender-and-work-12-2013-1-05/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millenn...

palimpsests 8y ago
Emotional labor is not referring to the completion of material tasks / chores, nor is it referring to the amount of hours completed at a workplace. So I'm not sure what it is that you're trying to communicate by responding to a comment that was specifically about emotional labor with this comment - emotional labor has nothing to do with "talking bad" about relative degrees of contribution in a relationship. edit: now I see - it's related to the comic in the GP comment. That comment implies that the comic is explaining emotional labor, but it isn't (the comic pretty much states this in the final panel). So that GP comment confused the thread. I'll respond directly to that comment.

palimpsests 8y ago

While it tangentially touches on it, this comic is not talking specifically about emotional labor - the final panel even says "In a future comic I'll talk about emotional work, which also gets heaped onto women." For anyone interested, here are some resources on emotional labor: - https://www.fastcompany.com/90268277/men-emotional-labor-is-your-problem-too https://www.fastcompany.com/90268277/men-emotional-labor-is-... - https://www.forbes.com/sites/melodywilding/2018/06/06/dont-be-the-office-mom-how-emotional-labor-affects-womens-careers/#48602bd11103 https://www.forbes.com/sites/melodywilding/2018/06/06/dont-b... - https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/7-ways-men-must-learn-to-do-emotional-labor-in-their-relationships/ https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/7-ways-men-must-l...

ascar 8y ago

That's an interesting comic. Though I think it's very one-sided especially in the last parts and written from the point of a women, who had bad luck with her partner. Staying with these stereotypes there are other mental tasks that a man would have on his mind like keeping the car running: changing tires, changing oil, etc. Anecdotally: I did a big junk of the organizational stuff for my girlfriend during her five years of university (we basically met a month before she started) including pushing her through her bachelor and master thesis. Basically I kept a mental todo list for her and kept nagging her "like a boss". I also organized us moving different places, getting insurances, setting up contracts (like for tv and internet), shopping for tech, getting her car fixed and planning our holidays. I also organized and execute all the household related fixing. That's mostly stuff that happens on occasion and takes a lot of time and mental capacity then, but is not a daily load. On the other hand she does a lot of the daily load stuff like washing, shopping and cleaning (basically because I'm fine cleaning once every 2 weeks when I can actually see the dust lying around, but she gets furious at this point). I probably do not appreciate this enough from a mental load / organizational point of view. I'm sure though that I will be the one keeping track of doctor appointments and nannies, when we have kids, while she will keeping track of feeding, grocery shopping and changing diapers. I hopefully will remember this post and appreciate the small, but frequent and steady organizational load she takes and not only think about the rarer, bigger ones I take care off.

mcv 8y ago
> That's an interesting comic. Though I think it's very one-sided Of course. It provides a perspective, not all perspectives. But it's an important perspective. Not every household is this skewed in responsibilities, but many are. And just paying a bit of attention to what's going on and taking on some of these responsibilities, can alleviate a lot of stress. It's certainly something I need to do more.

cellularmitosis 8y ago

This comic addresses a very real issue, but I feel it is more universal than the feminist angle would imply. This same drama unfolds anytime you have people cohabitating who have different tolerances / thresholds / standards for how and how often they expect cleanliness and tidyness issues to be handled. If those thresholds don’t match, and especially if one person is more conflict-averse than the other, typically one person will volunteer to suffer in silence, take most of the burden for themselves, bottle up resentment, and then explode in a “I always / you never” fight. Every male I know who has male roommates during college has their own version of this story.

rangersanger 8y ago

This was a good reminder, habits are hard to break. As others have pointed out, the comic is a bit one sided, but it's trying to make a point, so whatever. However, the comic does fail to recognize that the priorities of the woman (in this case) are also societal constructs. In the same way that women are taught to be the cleaners and boys are taught to go off to "save the world," women are also taught to value things like a tidy home. There's no inherent value in not keeping my jeans on the floor of the bedroom. That's something that women writ large have been taught to value. If the men are being encouraged to think about what society has taught them to do, and change it based on this comic, I think it's only fair that the women also take a minute and consider the same.

pitt1980 8y ago

Not sure if supposed to feel bad about this or not, but ... 10 years ago, when my wife and I had been married less than a month, there was an occasion when the dishes piled up in the sink, and my wife got upset, and asked why had hadn't I noticed them, and why hadn't it bother me enough to clean them up without her having to ask me. The reality was, I'm not sure I had noticed it, sometimes I get lost in my own world, I have a different perception of what parts of the world need my attention than my wife does, not that my perception is better (its often worse), anyway, we had a discussion where I stated that if she would like my help with something, a polite "hey, would you mind [cleaning the dishes, some other X, etc]" will almost always elicit a "sure", then me doing it, unless there is an extremely specific reason I'm unable to help her at that exact moment, I'm not going to refuse a request for help I'm happy we had that talk, I think it significantly improved the communication in our marriage I don't want her strewing over me not doing something that I'm oblivious to, (and sometimes I am oblivious to stuff) after a few requests for the same type of help, I do get in the habit of anticipating that a particular help is needed, and try to do it before that help is formally requested (the sink rarely fills up with dishes these days)