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I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little mone

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society. Secret no fly lists: impact a very small slice of the population. Try to find more than a few instances of legitimate travelers being blocked, which is something you can do with freedom of speech and freedom of press. I think less than 2000 are us citizens. The program in China is going to disenfranchise entire slices of their population and further limit their social mobility. Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. I’m an Enlightenment since everyone deserves due process, but in a defending our national interests sense, that can never be the case and never has been. Our systems aren’t perfect, but every first world nation has some system to track your financial behavior and it impacts you negatively if you don’t make your payments. I just don’t see any strong relationship to the oppression in China and what happens in the US. Our systems aren’t perfect and your criticism has merit, but not as a comparison to China on this topic.

adrianN 8y ago
I'm sure you could also argue that it's easy to have a good score in China's system. Just be a good citizen.
sailfast 8y ago
We have killed our own citizens. If they are abroad they have been hit without due process in drone strikes. (See Awlaki et al) No love lost for the man, but labeling something OK because someone is said to be a “terrorist” (when that label has been applied without due process) is the equivalent of avoiding due process which must be afforded to all citizens. When excepted under narrow circumstances for convenience, you are paving the way to generally ignoring due process.
sjg007 8y ago
The US does kill its citizens. There's a few terrorists who were US citizens when they were killed by drone strikes. https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-killed-us-drone-strike https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...
- skrebbel 8y ago
  Uh, and the death penalty.
  - Just_Smith 8y ago
    I'm not an advocate of the death penalty, but there's quite of bit of due process between an American citizen and the death penalty. Killing in the absence of due process, as with drone strikes on rogue US citizens, is significantly worse and is extremely problematic for the long-term.
  - bitexploder 8y ago
    That is a good point. I was thinking from a national security context. I know we have done it a few times, but I would like to believe those examples are isolated and extreme. Death penalty is another thing. It has so many problems with it and is a stain on our society in my opinion.
xtian 8y ago
> Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. I’m an Enlightenment since everyone deserves due process, but in a defending our national interests sense, that can never be the case and never has been. The parts of this that are comprehensible are either baseless or ill-informed assertions.
- bitexploder 8y ago
  Argh, yeah. Phone typing. Try: In a post Enlightenment society, with everyone having certain unalienable rights, they deserve due process, but....
robin_reala 8y ago
I believe the US still has capital punishment, which absolutely is killing your own citizens.
- bitexploder 8y ago
  Not secret. And a stain on our society in my opinion.
coldtea 8y ago
>Secret kill lists are for terrorits Or so they say. In any case, it's a single country deciding, and that any some ad hoc committee, without a public due process, and targeting people residing on sovereign states. And of course often killing 10-20 nearby people as well, up to 130 for a strike on a wedding: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll-from-air-strike-on-yemen-wedding-party-rises-above-130-medics-idUSKCN0RT0XT20150929?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll...
- bitexploder 8y ago
  Yes, there are examples like this. Collateral damage will happen in war. It is tragic and always will be, and I say that with all sincerity. National security has always been thus and always will be so until there is no such thing as a nation.
  - kazagistar 8y ago
    There is collateral damage in china's war against its terrorists, and I'm sure they justify it the same. It's bullshit, when you are making up a foreverwar.
    - bitexploder 8y ago
      Terrorism kind of is a foreverwar. Restraint can be exercised. I am not afraid of terrorism and I won’t give up freedom to fight it, but, I am an outlier among liberals in how I view the application of violence. Let’s just say I disagree with Chomsky and pacifism. Until there is evidence we live in a better world than the one we have now. It’s also important to not lose sight of the scale of the violence in the world. The worst day in the battle of the Somme was 10 times bloodier than the entire Iraq war. We have the luxury of carefully scrutinizing much of what goes on in the world but news does not convey the decreasing scale of violence in our armed conflicts. They will slowly wind down. I won’t disagree at least some of what we are taking about are 1984esque war is peace propaganda, but there are also genuine bad actors in the world and they are only emboldened by a lack of action. I have a lot of concerns about violence in the world, and the US role in it, but I am not so cynical to reduce the war on terror to “bullshit”. Expansion of executive power under Bush is and was troubling. I have to believe that guys like Obama genuinely acted with high moral character and only made the choices they made because it was the obvious moral choice for our national interests. Maybe not, I admit you could be right and it could all be bullshit.
thatfrenchguy 8y ago
> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. If you’re rich.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  But if you're not rich, "You're just Lazy". Because everyone who isn't a millionaire, is just an embarrassed pre-millionaire.
- bitexploder 8y ago
  Credit rating has nothing to do with how much money you have. I helped my sister who makes minimum wage move 100k medical debt off her credit record, establish a secured credit card, and taught her how to pay bills on time and negotiate with debt owners and creditors so she never gets any debt reported to credit agencies. All with her own very limited money. She moved her score from 400s to 700s over about 3 years. All credit rating shows is (1) you don’t take out more than you can afford and (2) you are willing to service the debts you have to the limits you can afford. Even with 700-800 credit if you don’t have much earning power you won’t get a big loan, but you will get good rates on what you can afford.
- refurb 8y ago
  I know plenty of poor people with good credit scores. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  It's easy to have bad credit while being rich, and good credit while being poor. The question is how much reasonable debt do you take on and service according to the contract? And that has nothing to do with how rich or poor you are.
will_brown 8y ago
>Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. What we do know is the Us has made multiple drone strikes targeting a US citizen and ultimately killed a US citizen. Two you can’t know how many other citizens are on the kill list, that is the nature of secret kills lists. Three we don’t even know the standard the government uses to label someone a terrorist (us citizen or not) for purposes of the kill list, because the US Supreme Court said we aren’t entitled to know. And as to the credit...as I said the majority have good credit and love to think they earned that credit and like the permenant underclass of people who have bad credit can’t get jobs, housing, etc... Trust me the majority of people in China will have good social credit and say the same things as you...it’s easy to have good social credit, it’s not dystopian it’s helpful. History suggests people have a great love for societal hierarchies.
- bitexploder 8y ago
  Except credit rating isn’t about hierarchy. It is two things (1) pay bills on time — service debt reliably (2) negotiate with creditors when you can’t. People get bad credit because they acquire debt and then fail to service it and think ignoring creditors is the way to go. You can still smoke cigarettes and buy all the video games you want. Just pay your bills.
  - will_brown 8y ago
    >People get bad credit because they acquire debt and then fail to service it and think ignoring creditors is the way to go. Or they are born poor and don’t have access to credit. Thus have limited access to jobs and housing. That continues to prevent them from establishing credit and keeps poor people poor. Also there are plenty of studies showing credit scores in fact are inheriently biased against minorities. “Just Pay Your Bill”. Exactly as I said the majority loves it, and the majority in China will love it to and say “Just be a good citizen”. Edit: I realized I’m talking about the dystopia of using credit to limit ones ability to get a job and housing, and you’re talking about ability to buy cigarettes and video games.
lightedman 8y ago
"We don’t kill our own citizens." Never heard of the MOVE Row House bombing where Philadelphia police literally helicopter-bombed the place and killed 5 children? Waco Massacre where the FBI killed over 20 children? Where have you been living? Under a rock?
gumby 8y ago
> Secret no fly lists: impact a very small slice of the population. ... Secret kill lists are for terrorists How can you know if they are secret? And it’s pretty cavalier to say “impact a small slice” — it’s a bit deal if you’re part of that small slice, fair or not.
- bitexploder 8y ago
  They have published the size of the list periodically as well as the budget to maintain it. There are something like 40-60k names in it and only about 1000 “US persons”.
xenomachina 8y ago
> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. When I first moved to the US it was not possible for me to have any (US) credit. I had good credit in Canada, but that was mostly by accident (I had a credit card that I rarely used -- I didn't really need one in university) and it turns out that Canadian credit doesn't translate into US credit.

adrianN 8y ago

I'm sure you could also argue that it's easy to have a good score in China's system. Just be a good citizen.

sailfast 8y ago

We have killed our own citizens. If they are abroad they have been hit without due process in drone strikes. (See Awlaki et al) No love lost for the man, but labeling something OK because someone is said to be a “terrorist” (when that label has been applied without due process) is the equivalent of avoiding due process which must be afforded to all citizens. When excepted under narrow circumstances for convenience, you are paving the way to generally ignoring due process.

sjg007 8y ago

The US does kill its citizens. There's a few terrorists who were US citizens when they were killed by drone strikes. https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-killed-us-drone-strike https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...

skrebbel 8y ago
Uh, and the death penalty.
- Just_Smith 8y ago
  I'm not an advocate of the death penalty, but there's quite of bit of due process between an American citizen and the death penalty. Killing in the absence of due process, as with drone strikes on rogue US citizens, is significantly worse and is extremely problematic for the long-term.
- bitexploder 8y ago
  That is a good point. I was thinking from a national security context. I know we have done it a few times, but I would like to believe those examples are isolated and extreme. Death penalty is another thing. It has so many problems with it and is a stain on our society in my opinion.

xtian 8y ago

> Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. I’m an Enlightenment since everyone deserves due process, but in a defending our national interests sense, that can never be the case and never has been. The parts of this that are comprehensible are either baseless or ill-informed assertions.

bitexploder 8y ago
Argh, yeah. Phone typing. Try: In a post Enlightenment society, with everyone having certain unalienable rights, they deserve due process, but....

robin_reala 8y ago

I believe the US still has capital punishment, which absolutely is killing your own citizens.

bitexploder 8y ago
Not secret. And a stain on our society in my opinion.

coldtea 8y ago

>Secret kill lists are for terrorits Or so they say. In any case, it's a single country deciding, and that any some ad hoc committee, without a public due process, and targeting people residing on sovereign states. And of course often killing 10-20 nearby people as well, up to 130 for a strike on a wedding: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll-from-air-strike-on-yemen-wedding-party-rises-above-130-medics-idUSKCN0RT0XT20150929?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll...

bitexploder 8y ago
Yes, there are examples like this. Collateral damage will happen in war. It is tragic and always will be, and I say that with all sincerity. National security has always been thus and always will be so until there is no such thing as a nation.
- kazagistar 8y ago
  There is collateral damage in china's war against its terrorists, and I'm sure they justify it the same. It's bullshit, when you are making up a foreverwar.
  - bitexploder 8y ago
    Terrorism kind of is a foreverwar. Restraint can be exercised. I am not afraid of terrorism and I won’t give up freedom to fight it, but, I am an outlier among liberals in how I view the application of violence. Let’s just say I disagree with Chomsky and pacifism. Until there is evidence we live in a better world than the one we have now. It’s also important to not lose sight of the scale of the violence in the world. The worst day in the battle of the Somme was 10 times bloodier than the entire Iraq war. We have the luxury of carefully scrutinizing much of what goes on in the world but news does not convey the decreasing scale of violence in our armed conflicts. They will slowly wind down. I won’t disagree at least some of what we are taking about are 1984esque war is peace propaganda, but there are also genuine bad actors in the world and they are only emboldened by a lack of action. I have a lot of concerns about violence in the world, and the US role in it, but I am not so cynical to reduce the war on terror to “bullshit”. Expansion of executive power under Bush is and was troubling. I have to believe that guys like Obama genuinely acted with high moral character and only made the choices they made because it was the obvious moral choice for our national interests. Maybe not, I admit you could be right and it could all be bullshit.

thatfrenchguy 8y ago

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. If you’re rich.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago
But if you're not rich, "You're just Lazy". Because everyone who isn't a millionaire, is just an embarrassed pre-millionaire.
bitexploder 8y ago
Credit rating has nothing to do with how much money you have. I helped my sister who makes minimum wage move 100k medical debt off her credit record, establish a secured credit card, and taught her how to pay bills on time and negotiate with debt owners and creditors so she never gets any debt reported to credit agencies. All with her own very limited money. She moved her score from 400s to 700s over about 3 years. All credit rating shows is (1) you don’t take out more than you can afford and (2) you are willing to service the debts you have to the limits you can afford. Even with 700-800 credit if you don’t have much earning power you won’t get a big loan, but you will get good rates on what you can afford.
refurb 8y ago
I know plenty of poor people with good credit scores. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.
oh_sigh 8y ago
It's easy to have bad credit while being rich, and good credit while being poor. The question is how much reasonable debt do you take on and service according to the contract? And that has nothing to do with how rich or poor you are.

will_brown 8y ago

>Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. What we do know is the Us has made multiple drone strikes targeting a US citizen and ultimately killed a US citizen. Two you can’t know how many other citizens are on the kill list, that is the nature of secret kills lists. Three we don’t even know the standard the government uses to label someone a terrorist (us citizen or not) for purposes of the kill list, because the US Supreme Court said we aren’t entitled to know. And as to the credit...as I said the majority have good credit and love to think they earned that credit and like the permenant underclass of people who have bad credit can’t get jobs, housing, etc... Trust me the majority of people in China will have good social credit and say the same things as you...it’s easy to have good social credit, it’s not dystopian it’s helpful. History suggests people have a great love for societal hierarchies.

bitexploder 8y ago
Except credit rating isn’t about hierarchy. It is two things (1) pay bills on time — service debt reliably (2) negotiate with creditors when you can’t. People get bad credit because they acquire debt and then fail to service it and think ignoring creditors is the way to go. You can still smoke cigarettes and buy all the video games you want. Just pay your bills.
- will_brown 8y ago
  >People get bad credit because they acquire debt and then fail to service it and think ignoring creditors is the way to go. Or they are born poor and don’t have access to credit. Thus have limited access to jobs and housing. That continues to prevent them from establishing credit and keeps poor people poor. Also there are plenty of studies showing credit scores in fact are inheriently biased against minorities. “Just Pay Your Bill”. Exactly as I said the majority loves it, and the majority in China will love it to and say “Just be a good citizen”. Edit: I realized I’m talking about the dystopia of using credit to limit ones ability to get a job and housing, and you’re talking about ability to buy cigarettes and video games.

lightedman 8y ago

"We don’t kill our own citizens." Never heard of the MOVE Row House bombing where Philadelphia police literally helicopter-bombed the place and killed 5 children? Waco Massacre where the FBI killed over 20 children? Where have you been living? Under a rock?

gumby 8y ago

> Secret no fly lists: impact a very small slice of the population. ... Secret kill lists are for terrorists How can you know if they are secret? And it’s pretty cavalier to say “impact a small slice” — it’s a bit deal if you’re part of that small slice, fair or not.

bitexploder 8y ago
They have published the size of the list periodically as well as the budget to maintain it. There are something like 40-60k names in it and only about 1000 “US persons”.

xenomachina 8y ago

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. When I first moved to the US it was not possible for me to have any (US) credit. I had good credit in Canada, but that was mostly by accident (I had a credit card that I rarely used -- I didn't really need one in university) and it turns out that Canadian credit doesn't translate into US credit.