4 ms·

The whole GDR computing scene is fascinating: not just the software, but also the hardware. Because of the economic blockades, there weren't many 'western' comp

The whole GDR computing scene is fascinating: not just the software, but also the hardware. Because of the economic blockades, there weren't many 'western' computers or even computer parts available. They reversed engineered a ZX spectrum, stole plans, bribed businesspeople to 'lose' their computer, etcetera. For a state that prided itself on their technological marvels they failed miserably, trailing behind western countries by years (they first developed a megabit chip in 1988, 2 years behind IBM). https://www.deutsches-museum.de/fileadmin/Content/040_BN/PDFs/Prismentexte/Megabit_Chip_.pdf https://www.deutsches-museum.de/fileadmin/Content/040_BN/PDF...

flohofwoe 8y ago
From today's point of view, it wasn't such an obvious failure though. It took about 3..4 years to 'copy' the Z80 (it wasn't a straight copy, but a reengineered version with bug fixes), but only 2 years for the "megabit chip"), so the process was (arguably) speeding up. And at least the 8-bit computers (KC85/2../4, Z9001, Z1013) weren't simple clones of the ZX Spectrum even though some ideas were definitely "borrowed" (later on there was a CPC clone called KC Compact though). The video capabilities of the 85/2 were quite a bit more advanced than the Spectrum (unfortunately the CPU speed was half of the ZX), and the operating system (CAOS) even had some very interesting ideas not found anywhere else. The 100% cloning mainly happened for office hardware where software compatibility with standard CP/M software was required, and also for the software itself where usually only the original copyright messages were replaced with some other strings. You'll also have to consider that the tricky/expensive part wasn't the design, but the factories and clean room production lines to manufacture the chips (AFAIK the first of those were also brought in under 'suspicious circumstances' from the West via proxy companies that had been founded in Western Germany just for that reason, and which conveniently went bankrupt shortly after acquiring modern production lines, and those 'vanished' somehow only to show up in Eastern Germany a few months later). Back then I'd thought the GDR is at least 15 years behind in computer technology, but in reality it wasn't quite that bad, at least for the few areas that were picked (of course the West had much broader spectrum of different hardware and software popping up everywhere).
- Lkjhmnbv 8y ago
  Notice how everything is a clone or stealing western tech, and nothing you said was pure innovation? What would their computing have looked like without the west?
  - flohofwoe 8y ago
    I think the whole point of the effort was catching up quickly through cloning (much the same strategy as Japan after WW2, or more recently China), and not creating incompatible technology which would ultimately be a dead-end. For instance, a home-grown, incompatible CPU that's only used in one country didn't make sense back then just as today. That's also the reason why the Z80 was chosen over the 6502, it was all about enabling compatibility with CP/M software. But although the basic chips were cloned, at least some of the actual computers that were build with those chips were not clones of existing Western computer designs, partly because many Western home computers had highly integrated custom chips to make mass production cheaper, which was out-of-question for Eastern computer designs.
    - Lkjhmnbv 8y ago
      Why doesn't it make sense? If argue making a compatible system made no sense. They were fighting an existential war with the west, and it was a fight to win. They despised capitalism and sought to exterminate it. Its a bit (much more than a bit) hypocritical to deride your enemies as immoral and horrible people worth destroying while stealing their tech because you can't invent it. But then again logic was never a strong suit of these arguments.
      - detaro 8y ago
        Making an incompatible system just because would have meant lagging further behind, since they couldn't profit as much from the experience that went into the tech cloned. That's why copying made sense.
      - eropple 8y ago
        "Can't" and "don't want to incur the opportunity costs of" are different things. And hypocrisy is a rhetorical failing, not a logical one. BTW: HN doesn't usually cotton too well to this kind of YOLO ideolatry that you're tossing off.

flohofwoe 8y ago

From today's point of view, it wasn't such an obvious failure though. It took about 3..4 years to 'copy' the Z80 (it wasn't a straight copy, but a reengineered version with bug fixes), but only 2 years for the "megabit chip"), so the process was (arguably) speeding up. And at least the 8-bit computers (KC85/2../4, Z9001, Z1013) weren't simple clones of the ZX Spectrum even though some ideas were definitely "borrowed" (later on there was a CPC clone called KC Compact though). The video capabilities of the 85/2 were quite a bit more advanced than the Spectrum (unfortunately the CPU speed was half of the ZX), and the operating system (CAOS) even had some very interesting ideas not found anywhere else. The 100% cloning mainly happened for office hardware where software compatibility with standard CP/M software was required, and also for the software itself where usually only the original copyright messages were replaced with some other strings. You'll also have to consider that the tricky/expensive part wasn't the design, but the factories and clean room production lines to manufacture the chips (AFAIK the first of those were also brought in under 'suspicious circumstances' from the West via proxy companies that had been founded in Western Germany just for that reason, and which conveniently went bankrupt shortly after acquiring modern production lines, and those 'vanished' somehow only to show up in Eastern Germany a few months later). Back then I'd thought the GDR is at least 15 years behind in computer technology, but in reality it wasn't quite that bad, at least for the few areas that were picked (of course the West had much broader spectrum of different hardware and software popping up everywhere).

Lkjhmnbv 8y ago
Notice how everything is a clone or stealing western tech, and nothing you said was pure innovation? What would their computing have looked like without the west?
- flohofwoe 8y ago
  I think the whole point of the effort was catching up quickly through cloning (much the same strategy as Japan after WW2, or more recently China), and not creating incompatible technology which would ultimately be a dead-end. For instance, a home-grown, incompatible CPU that's only used in one country didn't make sense back then just as today. That's also the reason why the Z80 was chosen over the 6502, it was all about enabling compatibility with CP/M software. But although the basic chips were cloned, at least some of the actual computers that were build with those chips were not clones of existing Western computer designs, partly because many Western home computers had highly integrated custom chips to make mass production cheaper, which was out-of-question for Eastern computer designs.
  - Lkjhmnbv 8y ago
    Why doesn't it make sense? If argue making a compatible system made no sense. They were fighting an existential war with the west, and it was a fight to win. They despised capitalism and sought to exterminate it. Its a bit (much more than a bit) hypocritical to deride your enemies as immoral and horrible people worth destroying while stealing their tech because you can't invent it. But then again logic was never a strong suit of these arguments.
    - detaro 8y ago
      Making an incompatible system just because would have meant lagging further behind, since they couldn't profit as much from the experience that went into the tech cloned. That's why copying made sense.
    - eropple 8y ago
      "Can't" and "don't want to incur the opportunity costs of" are different things. And hypocrisy is a rhetorical failing, not a logical one. BTW: HN doesn't usually cotton too well to this kind of YOLO ideolatry that you're tossing off.