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> People should just allow suicide by administration from a machine in a hospital. Very bad idea. > People that want suicide are rational and suffer from a re

by brazzy 8y ago

> People should just allow suicide by administration from a machine in a hospital. Very bad idea. > People that want suicide are rational and suffer from a reality that doesn’t favor them. That is provably not true in all (probably most) cases. Apart from the fact that for very many people, suicidal thoughs and actions are transient, leaving them very happy that it was not easy to follow through to completion, there is the matter of moral hazard: situations where people who would profit from someone's death could reinforce or even induce suicidal thoughs in that person.

ABCLAW 8y ago
>That is provably not true in all (probably most) cases. There are plenty of counterexamples: People who suffer from a condition which causes substantial chronic pain, those who wish to time their passing in order to minimize financial harm to their family, etc.
- brazzy 8y ago
  I was not making a general statement, the person I was replying to was, so "counterexamples" are relevant to their comment, not mine.
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
maybe not in all, but it's true in many cases. I do consider myself of sound mind (but what do I know am I a doctor? /s) and am at least currently happy. But I do never want to die in pointlessly extended agony, unable to think because the painkillers of my disease are fogging my mind like a bad dream. Or withering away in an old peoples home because the kids are living in far away countries. Not everyone buys the idea that everything will be better tomorrow. It should be up to the individual to decide how they go. In my case I see only 2 options: a sudden unforeseen death or suicide at a point of time and place and method in which I deem appropriate. Nobody should tell others how they are allowed to go. And since I had no control over how I came into this world at least there is with some luck the possibility of me going out under my terms. Not sure how somebody would want to deny that right, or automatically label suicidal people as depressed or mentally unstable. Optimists will simply never learn. It's another form of extremist or elitist thinking. We were conditioned to always be optimistic 24/7 (nobody openly pessimistic will pass a job interview, and if they do they won't have friends at work). That conditioning is passed on to kids, because without that skill they will either grow up writing philosophy books for a fringe genre or end up homeless. In my experience optimism isn't something that leads to long term happiness. Not unless a strong dose of cognitive dissonance is already present allowing the individual to disengage with the fact that we are killing the planet that supports us. Tomorrow won't be better than today, that is just an illusion. For anyone not afraid to explore dark subjects I highly recommend Nethescurial by horror writer Thomas Ligotti (this is his only philosophical non-fiction work).
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  > Nobody should tell others how they are allowed to go. Ever? Does that apply to something like seatbelt laws too?
  - xfitm3 8y ago
    It should. I don’t want laws to protect me from myself.
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    if one decides to crash into the far end wall in a car park, when nobody else is around to get hurt, then why not? impacting other lives with your death is not responsible and something I would relate to mental problems. Also leaving yourself to be found by friends, family or splattering yourself in a public place, or risking that a jogger finds you, are reckless and ignorant acts. it has nothing to do with exercising your rights over your live/death, when that impact others, does it? There is also the question of how your suicide affects your environment. Who will you leave behind and how are they going to take it. Will you simply disappear hiking, or fishing, and no body will ever be discovered? Or will they find you in a hotel and there is a good-bye note. Will you need a note if everyone knows how you intend to go one day or will you keep it a secret until the end. A lot of moral dilemmas in every corner. But unless death comes quickly and unexpectedly in another way there are potentially 20-50 years (depending on age) to come up with a grand plan that uniquely fits to the a persons situation.
- brazzy 8y ago
  > But I do never want to die in pointlessly extended agony, unable to think because the painkillers of my disease are fogging my mind like a bad dream. Yes, that is the case where you can get pretty broad consensus that suicide should be an available opion. > Or withering away in an old peoples home because the kids are living in far away countries. I don't think you can really assess how you would actually feel in such a situation. > Not sure how somebody would want to deny that right, or automatically label suicidal people as depressed or mentally unstable. Because, as I wrote before, the vast majority of suicidal thoughts and actions are not based on objectively bad and unescapable circumstances. > Optimists will simply never learn. It's another form of extremist or elitist thinking. Exactly the same can be said about pessimism. It's a lazy way to avoid responsibility for your own life and at the same time cultivate an empty feeling of superiority.
zubspace 8y ago
Replace the machine with reasonable, assisted suicide and there is actually a fair chance that it can relieve some people from alot of pain while preventing abuse. For example there is a swiss organisation called "Exit" [1] which operates in this manner. [1] https://www.exit.ch/en/en/faq/ https://www.exit.ch/en/en/faq/

by brazzy 8y ago

ABCLAW 8y ago

>That is provably not true in all (probably most) cases. There are plenty of counterexamples: People who suffer from a condition which causes substantial chronic pain, those who wish to time their passing in order to minimize financial harm to their family, etc.

brazzy 8y ago
I was not making a general statement, the person I was replying to was, so "counterexamples" are relevant to their comment, not mine.

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

maybe not in all, but it's true in many cases. I do consider myself of sound mind (but what do I know am I a doctor? /s) and am at least currently happy. But I do never want to die in pointlessly extended agony, unable to think because the painkillers of my disease are fogging my mind like a bad dream. Or withering away in an old peoples home because the kids are living in far away countries. Not everyone buys the idea that everything will be better tomorrow. It should be up to the individual to decide how they go. In my case I see only 2 options: a sudden unforeseen death or suicide at a point of time and place and method in which I deem appropriate. Nobody should tell others how they are allowed to go. And since I had no control over how I came into this world at least there is with some luck the possibility of me going out under my terms. Not sure how somebody would want to deny that right, or automatically label suicidal people as depressed or mentally unstable. Optimists will simply never learn. It's another form of extremist or elitist thinking. We were conditioned to always be optimistic 24/7 (nobody openly pessimistic will pass a job interview, and if they do they won't have friends at work). That conditioning is passed on to kids, because without that skill they will either grow up writing philosophy books for a fringe genre or end up homeless. In my experience optimism isn't something that leads to long term happiness. Not unless a strong dose of cognitive dissonance is already present allowing the individual to disengage with the fact that we are killing the planet that supports us. Tomorrow won't be better than today, that is just an illusion. For anyone not afraid to explore dark subjects I highly recommend Nethescurial by horror writer Thomas Ligotti (this is his only philosophical non-fiction work).

Dylan16807 8y ago
> Nobody should tell others how they are allowed to go. Ever? Does that apply to something like seatbelt laws too?
- xfitm3 8y ago
  It should. I don’t want laws to protect me from myself.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  if one decides to crash into the far end wall in a car park, when nobody else is around to get hurt, then why not? impacting other lives with your death is not responsible and something I would relate to mental problems. Also leaving yourself to be found by friends, family or splattering yourself in a public place, or risking that a jogger finds you, are reckless and ignorant acts. it has nothing to do with exercising your rights over your live/death, when that impact others, does it? There is also the question of how your suicide affects your environment. Who will you leave behind and how are they going to take it. Will you simply disappear hiking, or fishing, and no body will ever be discovered? Or will they find you in a hotel and there is a good-bye note. Will you need a note if everyone knows how you intend to go one day or will you keep it a secret until the end. A lot of moral dilemmas in every corner. But unless death comes quickly and unexpectedly in another way there are potentially 20-50 years (depending on age) to come up with a grand plan that uniquely fits to the a persons situation.
brazzy 8y ago
> But I do never want to die in pointlessly extended agony, unable to think because the painkillers of my disease are fogging my mind like a bad dream. Yes, that is the case where you can get pretty broad consensus that suicide should be an available opion. > Or withering away in an old peoples home because the kids are living in far away countries. I don't think you can really assess how you would actually feel in such a situation. > Not sure how somebody would want to deny that right, or automatically label suicidal people as depressed or mentally unstable. Because, as I wrote before, the vast majority of suicidal thoughts and actions are not based on objectively bad and unescapable circumstances. > Optimists will simply never learn. It's another form of extremist or elitist thinking. Exactly the same can be said about pessimism. It's a lazy way to avoid responsibility for your own life and at the same time cultivate an empty feeling of superiority.

zubspace 8y ago

Replace the machine with reasonable, assisted suicide and there is actually a fair chance that it can relieve some people from alot of pain while preventing abuse. For example there is a swiss organisation called "Exit" [1] which operates in this manner. [1] https://www.exit.ch/en/en/faq/ https://www.exit.ch/en/en/faq/