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While it's basically impossible to stop a person that is really really determined to kill themselves, many suicides can be prevented by making the means less av

While it's basically impossible to stop a person that is really really determined to kill themselves, many suicides can be prevented by making the means less available. For example, reducing the package size of paracetamol and requiring blister packaging instead of bottles reduced the number of suicides in Britain: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-to-reduce-suicides/ https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/a-simple-wa... You can still walk into as many pharmacies and buy as many tablets as you want in total, so in theory this shouldn't change anything. People still can - and do - kill themselves with tablets. In practice, it requires a much more premeditated plan which seems to hold off a substantial quantity of people.

isostatic 8y ago
The rational mind would see no difference between having to pop the pills out of the blisters individually or just having a tub of them. A rational mind treats "I want to commit suicide" as a problem, and comes up with a myriad of solutions. It's not exactly hard to commit suicide in theory. However people who commit suicide tend not to be thinking rationally, and it's amazing how small things can really help with reducing suicide.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  Probably they want to kill themselves a certain second, but as climb the stairs, load the magazine or start unwrapping the Tylenols they change their minds. (The mind is fickle like that, different people handle life issues differently so I pass no judgment. Personally, I think suicide is somewhat selfish, unless your children, parents /those dependent on you are cared for. But even with material things, they need the person in their life.)
  - mikeash 8y ago
    That’s like saying that cancer is somewhat selfish. Don’t metastasize, your family needs you! Mental illness is a disease too.
    - onetimemanytime 8y ago
      Maybe at some point they may loose their free will, but that opens the Pandora's box... With cancer you are never asked of you want it to kill you, the "cells" by itself decide.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        I don’t think “free will” is a coherent concept. I’ve never seen a definition that actually makes sense. There is no “you” besides the cells. Fundamentally, there’s no qualitative difference between some brain cells “deciding” to start replicating without limit, and some brain cells deciding to to swallow a lot of pills.
        onetimemanytime 8y ago
        >>There is no “you” besides the cells. OK. So if some of my "cells" decide to kill your firstborn, what say you?
        mikeash 8y ago
        I say, you’d better hope the police find you before I do. I assume you’re setting up for one of the standard “gotchas” here, but please try something new instead.
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        Does that mean there's no difference between a thinking mass of neurons asking you to remove the brain tumor, vs. the tumor that only expresses "grow"? If you would help that person remove the tumor, you're exposing a qualitative difference between the thinky bits and the not-thinky bits. If you wouldn't, then you're absolutely ridiculous.
        mikeash 8y ago
        That qualitative difference comes down to “disease.” I’m not sufficiently well versed in medical philosophy to give a good definition of that, but I know the distinction exists and is useful. Suicidal tendencies are also disease. If you could identify the cells responsible and the person asked you to remove them, would you? How is that different from a tumor? (And for more fun, consider the cases where a tumor is causing suicidal impulses.)
- mikeash 8y ago
  I remember reading about a man who survived a suicide attempt jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. He felt overwhelmed with intractable problems and so he jumped. He immediately realized that all of the problems in his life could be dealt with... except for the fact that he was plummeting to his doom. The idea that suicidal people will figure out a way no matter what is just ignorant of human nature. If you make something more difficult, people do it less.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
I was commenting on hotels. I want to rest at the hotel, I don't want a hotel psychologist to ask me questions, research me or whatever, just because some may commit suicide.

isostatic 8y ago

The rational mind would see no difference between having to pop the pills out of the blisters individually or just having a tub of them. A rational mind treats "I want to commit suicide" as a problem, and comes up with a myriad of solutions. It's not exactly hard to commit suicide in theory. However people who commit suicide tend not to be thinking rationally, and it's amazing how small things can really help with reducing suicide.

onetimemanytime 8y ago
Probably they want to kill themselves a certain second, but as climb the stairs, load the magazine or start unwrapping the Tylenols they change their minds. (The mind is fickle like that, different people handle life issues differently so I pass no judgment. Personally, I think suicide is somewhat selfish, unless your children, parents /those dependent on you are cared for. But even with material things, they need the person in their life.)
- mikeash 8y ago
  That’s like saying that cancer is somewhat selfish. Don’t metastasize, your family needs you! Mental illness is a disease too.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    Maybe at some point they may loose their free will, but that opens the Pandora's box... With cancer you are never asked of you want it to kill you, the "cells" by itself decide.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I don’t think “free will” is a coherent concept. I’ve never seen a definition that actually makes sense. There is no “you” besides the cells. Fundamentally, there’s no qualitative difference between some brain cells “deciding” to start replicating without limit, and some brain cells deciding to to swallow a lot of pills.
      - onetimemanytime 8y ago
        >>There is no “you” besides the cells. OK. So if some of my "cells" decide to kill your firstborn, what say you?
        mikeash 8y ago
        I say, you’d better hope the police find you before I do. I assume you’re setting up for one of the standard “gotchas” here, but please try something new instead.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        Does that mean there's no difference between a thinking mass of neurons asking you to remove the brain tumor, vs. the tumor that only expresses "grow"? If you would help that person remove the tumor, you're exposing a qualitative difference between the thinky bits and the not-thinky bits. If you wouldn't, then you're absolutely ridiculous.
        mikeash 8y ago
        That qualitative difference comes down to “disease.” I’m not sufficiently well versed in medical philosophy to give a good definition of that, but I know the distinction exists and is useful. Suicidal tendencies are also disease. If you could identify the cells responsible and the person asked you to remove them, would you? How is that different from a tumor? (And for more fun, consider the cases where a tumor is causing suicidal impulses.)
mikeash 8y ago
I remember reading about a man who survived a suicide attempt jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. He felt overwhelmed with intractable problems and so he jumped. He immediately realized that all of the problems in his life could be dealt with... except for the fact that he was plummeting to his doom. The idea that suicidal people will figure out a way no matter what is just ignorant of human nature. If you make something more difficult, people do it less.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

I was commenting on hotels. I want to rest at the hotel, I don't want a hotel psychologist to ask me questions, research me or whatever, just because some may commit suicide.