15 ms·

My dalliance with smart drugs - and the lesson I learned

221 points by caustic 16y ago

parenthesis 16y ago
Previous discussions: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190676 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190676 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524757 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524757
nikster 16y ago
The new discovery here is that the drug kills creativity - that's a pretty big deal for me. It's also quite different from meditation, which fosters creativity.
- grovulent 16y ago
  I think a better description of the process - at least, as it applies to my own usage (prescribed) goes like this: When you are on these sorts of drugs think of it as opening the tap. You execute with the full force of your creative reserves that you've built up. The more pent up you are - the more the ideas just pour through you as you write/code/compose - whatever. And because the tap is open, eventually the waters on one side of the dam level out with those on the other. The rate of creative execution slows down because it's not pent up. But I think it's a mistake to say one is LESS creative. You remain as creative as you ever were. The same amount of water flows through your stream as it ever did. One just doesn't have the same pent up backlog of ideas to execute anymore - just that steady stream.
  - StavrosK 16y ago
    Basically, it doesn't sound like a bad idea to take a pill one weekend in the month. You'll do all the things you've been meaning to for ages, and then go back to normal. I'd try it myself if I weren't dubious of the "no side-effects" thing. I don't think it's very likely that a drug makes you supersmart without having ill effects...
    - dlokshin 16y ago
      Agreed. It seems extremely unlikely that a drug which alters your brain chemistry does not have any ill side effects. If it doesn't have chemically addictive properties, it most certainly has emotionally addictive qualities.
      - StavrosK 16y ago
        I just remember hearing about sudden deaths of people who were on a nootropic drug (not sure if it was this one). Does anyone remember the drug? I don't think the risk is worth the reward...
        deleted 16y ago
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        swombat 16y ago
        I would not recommend driving on Modafinil. Too much focus can kill you on the road, and I have noticed that my ambient awareness feels reduced on Modafinil.
        deleted 16y ago
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    - grovulent 16y ago
      Depends on how much flow you have to start with I guess. As for side effects - they are there - but they are mild. If I stop taking them then the worst that happens is that I want to spend a day napping. But then I'm back to normal. Seriously - withdrawing for caffeine is much worse. Having said that. I don't actually advise that people take them without a prescription. Besides the obvious legal issues - there are people who genuinely need them just to have a reasonably normal life. Black market demand could make them more difficult to obtain for these people (especially me!).
    - dawson 16y ago
alexandradavis 16y ago
My experience matches caustics: I was able to settle into work, but my creativity was killed. I'd recommend smart drugs for doing drudgery, but if you need to engage the right brain for inventiveness, chocolate works great :)
- roadnottaken 16y ago
  I disagree, in a way. I used to take amphetamines when studying (adderall) and I'd find that I could completely get lost in whatever task I was pursuing. So, if I stayed focused on my study material, I'd absorb the material very thoroughly and quickly (relatively speaking). However, if I'd get distracted by something ~creative like, say, drawing a picture or composing a song (I didn't do any coding back then) I could get similarly lost in that task. That ability to "get lost" in something is, to me, very powerful creatively. Here's an example of the sort of artwork that I would do on speed that I probably wouldn't have the patience for, otherwise: http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5550/penroseknotv3sm.jpg http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5550/penroseknotv3sm.jpg I'm sure there are some types of creativity that are blunted, but the ability to direct extended focus and attention to any task (even creative ones) is a powerful thing that shouldn't be overlooked.
- caustic 16y ago
  Please note, I am not the author of the mentioned article. In fact, I never took Modafinil. I just remembered there was a decent discussion here at HN of the first part of the article, then I Googled and found there is follow up. So I decided to post it here.
MtL 16y ago
Have any programmers in here had any experiences with nootropics (*racetams, DMAE, etc)?
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Yes. Search the archives for "piracetam", "aniracetam", etc. Discussions about nootropics seem to come up a few times a year (though they usually get derailed to talking about amphetamines and provigil pretty quickly).
dawson 16y ago
My experience with Concerta (albeit a different drug), is not the same. I have seen a massive increase in my ability to concentrate and complete tasks, as well as be creative (in relation to my start up and business development). Though, creativity is relative to any one person and context.
jakerocheleau 16y ago
I can't speak for Provigil but I've used both Focalin (dexmethylphenidate) and Adderall (basically amphetamines) to help me study/work on tough projects and have had phenomenal results. I don't notice any "lack" in my creativity and honestly I find myself pumping out higher-quality work when I can focus in and get "in the zone". My writing improves, programming skills shoot through the fucking roof, and I find I can work from many different perspectives on any given problem. Always in moderation of course. I couldn't imagine speeding every work day just to finish projects
dsplittgerber 16y ago
What I find most astonishing is that people administer 'smart' drugs without having the slightest clue to their long-term side effects. You discount long-term risks in favor of short-term gains. We humans simply don't understand much of what goes on in the brain - I wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences.
- AngryParsley 16y ago
  ...long-term side effects. Modafinil has been around since the 70's. So far, no studies have found issues with long-term use. Actually, some studies found it to have a neuroprotective effect. I wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences. The environment we evolved in is quite different from the environment we now live in. Humans used to have much more limited supplies of food and nutrients. Our bodies are built for famine resistance instead of maximum performance. There's probably a similar trade-off in our brain functions, since the brain is a pretty big energy hog (responsible for around 25% of calories burned). We can use drugs to tweak the trade-offs made by evolution. We don't have to worry about food and nutrients today. Stimulants can decrease appetite and need for sleep, both of which would be disastrous in a food-limited environment. Even the effect of stimulants we find beneficial (spending hours in concentrated thought) would likely be harmful on the African savannah. The precautionary principle is too often applied in the case of enhancement. We don't completely understand the brain yet, but we do have some idea of how it works, and today there are safe effective drugs that improve cognitive abilities.
  - rsheridan6 16y ago
    >So far, no studies have found issues with long-term use. Most likely translation: there have been no long-term studies of modafinil. A quick search doesn't turn any up.
  - narrator 16y ago
    wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences. Although there are many illegal drugs that have negative consequences, the practice of applying this as a naive general law of medicine is largely a result of many years of this idea, or ideas similar to it, being drilled into us by the war on drugs propaganda machine. Each substance must be evaluated on a case by case basis and if people have been taking certain drugs for 30 years with no deleterious effect, the evidence is certainly in favor of long term safety, or even * gasp * benefit. There are other beliefs similar to this, such as any radio signal emitting device causes cancer, that have silently entered the culture as fact without much science to support them.
mr_luc 16y ago
This article could not have been written to tempt me any more effectively. 'It doesn't cause hyperfocused procrastination, like Adderal or Dexedrine. It's 'deep concentration.' And you can go off it whenever you want! It's a temporary smart pill with no withdrawal symptoms!' D'oh. "Get behind me, Satan!"
- stygianguest 16y ago
  Indeed, I myself have always been quite doubtfull of drugs' effectiveness. I used to attribute success much more to e.g. the discipline to refrain from browsing. This article makes me rethink that. As for the creativity, I'm not always sure that is a boon. When I encounter a particularly inspiring idea while studying something else, I find my mind wanders off in all directions with creative ideas, where I 'should' be concentrating on task at hand.
- barrkel 16y ago
  My experience has been that it leaves me drained for a couple of days afterwards, a little like a hangover but without any headache or sickness. It's not a free lunch. As to advantages, primarily modafinil stops me from feeling fatigued during the day, more than anything else; but I can still feel my brain getting tired, making more mistakes. It's just that the urge to take a break, rest, sleep etc. is numbed.
- jfb 16y ago
  Pros: it's killer for jet lag -- I fly between the US and HK fairly regularly, and suffer extraordinarily from jet lag. Modafinil helps a lot in reseting my internal clock. I also see the deep concentration effect, particularly on a project that I'm avoiding due to the inherent dullitude -- when high, I can power through stuff that I would deflect and ignore. On the down side, if I forget and drink a beer after taking Modafinil, the hangover is epic. Too, it makes my pee smell really weird. And I have a tendency towards chatterboxery, which is exacerbated beyond all reason. Anecdotes/evidence/&c.
  - gwern 16y ago
    > Too, it makes my pee smell really weird. As people point out above, this is a good thing. Makes counterfeiting that much harder. It would be nice if all drugs came with such signatures of authenticity. ('Remember, real Viagra will cause a little shamrock tattoo to appear under your right armpit for an hour.')
danielnicollet 16y ago
I never even thought of taking a drug to get ahead or be better at what I do. I don't think I knew people did self-medicate to improve their productivity either. It seems so wrong to me and so unauthentic. The brain is a fragile mission critical component we know so little about. I am amazed so many seem here discuss it so candidly. Good luck and make sure you don't turn into veggies by 50 y.o.
- deleted 16y ago
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- DanI-S 16y ago
  If you're concerned about being inauthentic, you should write all your code on paper rather than using anything as performance-enhancing as a text editor. And forget about that morning coffee!
  - danielnicollet 16y ago
    wow - you see no difference between coffee and a neural enhancer? this is way off the chart for me here. I have no difficulties seeing authenticity in what I do vs. the pill-popping programming regimen (maybe that's why I am getting downvoted here). I would also say it keep me very happy so far. So I wish good luck to those who choose that instead :)
    - petercooper 16y ago
      Perhaps not coffee, but caffeine, the active ingredient, is a "neural enhancer." Wikipedia defines it as a "psychoactive stimulant drug" and says that it "has a generally disinhibitory effect on neural activity." You would have done better to call out the comparison between using drugs and a text editor ;-)
      - danielnicollet 16y ago
        hehe - I am getting a coffee chemistry course now! I don't even drink coffee ;-) you would have done much better not replying at all.
dholowiski 16y ago
Side effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side_effects) In 2007, the FDA ordered Cephalon to modify the Provigil leaflet in bold-face print of several serious and potentially fatal conditions attributed to modafinil use, including TEN, DRESS syndrome, and Stevens-Johnson Syndrome (SJS). The long term safety and effectiveness of modafinil has not been determined. Webmd:http://bit.ly/9dSAg6 http://bit.ly/9dSAg6 Headache, nausea, nervousness, anxiety, dizziness, and difficulty sleeping may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify your doctor or pharmacist promptly. Tell your doctor immediately if any of these rare but serious side effects occur: mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, confusion, depression, abnormal thoughts, hallucinations). Seek immediate medical attention if any of these rare but very serious side effects occur: chest pain, fast/pounding/irregular heartbeat, signs of infection (e.g., fever, persistent sore throat).
- AngryParsley 16y ago
  6 cases over a decade. That's pretty safe in my book. You also left out the part about acute toxicity. For acute doses, Modafinil is safer than caffeine. The FDA is ridiculously risk-averse when it comes to approving drugs. For example, they recently rejected lorcaserin and qnexa, two anti-obesity drugs, over safety concerns. They also got sibutramine withdrawn from the US market. Even if these drugs have risks, the risks of obesity are likely much higher. A lot of people are going to die from obesity that would have been saved if these drugs were approved. Of course, the media reports when approved drugs cause harm, not when rejected drugs don't save lives.
  - silentbicycle 16y ago
    Pharmaceutical products in the US that have unexpected side-effects can cause their owner to be sued into oblivion, and even incredibly rare side effects are likely to manifest if a large population is taking them. (Also, the population at large does not understand statistics & probability.) Look at the history of Thalidomide, that's where a lot of precedents were set. This puts certain categories of drugs (anything for pregnant women, nootropics for people without alzheimers, etc.) in the "too risky to bother" category.
araneae 16y ago
My SO takes Provigil infrequently and has reported no loss of creativity. Next this guy is going to tell us that LSD bring him closer to God, and you're going to believe him? Anecdotal evidence about the effects of drugs are mostly worthless.
- swombat 16y ago
  For what it's worth, depending on your definition of God and how much LSD you take, I'd be inclined to believe that second statement. I agree that anecdotal evidence is not worth much, however the problem with psychoactive drugs is that many of the most interesting effects are subjective (and thus the best data is always anecdotal) and that scientific studies of certain interesting drugs is illegal. Anecdotal evidence may not be worth much, but it's certainly worth more than prejudices based on zero evidence. Also worth pointing out that not all interesting things in life can be studied with objective double-blind studies.
- deleted 16y ago
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corin_ 16y ago
Can anyone recomend somewhere to get hold of a (preferably small) amount of Provigil? (Shipping to UK) Would like to try it myself. edit: Found http://www.unitedpharmacies.co.uk/product.php?productid=973&cat=0&page=1 http://www.unitedpharmacies.co.uk/product.php?productid=973&... and placed a small order with a throwaway credit card, will see if that arrives in the next 7-14 days as promised. Would still like any recomendations, though.
- swombat 16y ago
  I've ordered a number of times from: http://www.qhi.co.uk/intro.asp http://www.qhi.co.uk/intro.asp They have not defrauded the cards I used and the stuff they delivered was, as far as I could tell, real (both from the packaging and from the effects).
  - corin_ 16y ago
    Thanks for the link - pretty expensive at 30 for 81euro (Alertec) or 30 for 143euro (Provigil)
    - swombat 16y ago
      Well, I know a number of websites where you can buy sugar pills for a lot cheaper... I ordered the Alertec from those guys quite a few times, and it always arrived without any issues. There's a slightly fussy initial sign-up procedure which involves sending them a fax, but beyond that I've had no problems.
      - corin_ 16y ago
        Have taken your advice and ordered 30x100mg of the Alertec, and will sort the fax out on Monday - cheers :) (I assume I'm right in thinking there's no advantage to Provigil over Alertec?)
        swombat 16y ago
        I don't know, I always took the Alertec. As far as I know there should be no difference, but I'm not a pharmacologist...
joelangeway 16y ago
You'll find more scientifically oriented articles about this subject if you call it nootropics. Here is another personal (not me) anecdote about it which comes off quite differently. http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-research-condensed-a-total-newbies-guide-to-nootropics/ http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-resea...
scotth 16y ago
There's a lot of conjecture here. Not sure why it's being upvoted.
- 0-4 16y ago
  Hacker news is pro drugs now. I guess it's just topical what with the weed vote.
chapel 16y ago
This seems to pop up a lot. After reading about this the first time I researched for about a month before purchasing any. My general experience with them is that they work, they keep you up longer than you would normally be able to, they keep you alert, you don't feel like you are hopped up either. The effect only lasts so long though, after being up for over 24 hours, your body gets tired, and the effectiveness of the drug gets worse. I didn't really go past 36 hours, but if I wanted to I could have. Note that I didn't purposely try and stay up all those times, I work graveyard shifts and ended up having important things come up when I needed to sleep and I was forced to stay up. Modafinil really did help me when I was tired, but as far as being a 'smart drug' it wasn't exactly mind blowing. It did make it easier to focus, but I could just as easily focus on a TV show, or a website, versus a piece of code I wanted to finish. So if you need to stay up, study, or get something done and you are determined to do it, this is great. If you want something to augment your day to day life and make you 'smarter' this really isn't for you. Though there are more things popping up saying that it might have worse long term side effects than previously thought, I didn't really have any that I know of, but if I get brain cancer in a year I guess I know why. :)
- farnsworth 16y ago
  And may I ask where you purchased it?
silentbicycle 16y ago
Wow! Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! I give it one hour before people start mentioning Erdos and talking about amphetamines instead. (Edit: Yup, and now I'm getting downvoted.) Here's a much better article about actual smart drugs (http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics), and its HN discussion (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959). Sorting them in terms of risk & body load is a good idea, I think. He's not kidding when he says vaso-/desmopressin messes with homeostasis. The racetams (piracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, etc.) are probably the least risky, though I've had the best long-term effects from getting enough sleep and exercise, eating reasonably well, and not spiking and crashing on caffeine all the time. If you want to try nootropics, be informed and careful, and address the obvious factors that may be messing with your concentration first. (For me it was sleep debt and too much caffeine.)
- joshu 16y ago
  Modafinil isn't a stimulant.
  - silentbicycle 16y ago
    Then what is it? I don't have a PDR on hand, but Wikipedia says it's an "analeptic", a central nervous system stimulant used specifically to control sleepiness.
    - digitailor 16y ago
      The PDR describes its action as "unknown."
      - silentbicycle 16y ago
        Does that mean something like, "it has stimulant-like effects, but its actual mechanism is more complex and not fully understood"? Serious question, not trying to sound flippant.
binarymax 16y ago
How do these drugs effect memory? If you can tear through books while on Provigil, is what you learned well retained when your brain reverts to its "scrappier state"?
zkirill 16y ago
My concern is that once you start taking these drugs to artificially boost your intelligence your natural ability to concentrate without them might atrophy because it's no longer used. I guess this isn't an issue if you only take them every now and then, but isn't it a better idea to seek alternate ways to energize your brain that use your own body such as having a solid exercise routine, proper diet and getting enough sleep?
confuzatron 16y ago
If anyone needs smart drugs it's Johann Hari. That he's currently running in scrappy mode does explain the sloppiness of his journalism though. (Note to downvoter: I say this because he's notorious for peppering his feel-good rants with factual inaccuracies)
swombat 16y ago
My experience was similar. I wouldn't say it kills all your creativity, but it makes it slightly more unnatural to practice lateral thinking. That said, I have come up with some great ideas while on Modafinil. My best tips if you're going to use this drug is: 1) Take a very small dose. 50mg (taken around 8 or 9) is usually more than enough to get me through the day. Occasionally I used to take a 25mg bump in the early afternoon which carried over the hyper feeling into the early evening. 2) Try it out on a day when you're by yourself first, so you understand how it changes your perception of the world, because it does alter your perception. You might be quicker to make decisions or react to things, and you need to understand this and compensate for it before you interact with other people. If you can't be alone, at least tell your partner about it so they understand that you might behave slightly differently over that period (possibly more aggressively...). 3) The best way to make the most of it, for me, has been to prepare a solid list of big items that I want to get through before I take it, so I don't have to think about what to do next. Modafinil allows you to focus really well on whatever it is you decide to do, but it really doesn't help your executive ability (i.e. deciding what to do). I did once find myself having a really solid, focused, deep, 6-hour session of World of Warcraft. Don't give yourself too much opportunity to wander, or you'll find yourself doing anything that comes to your mind (whether that's reading a book, cleaning the kitchen, reorganising your office, or actually doing some productive work). Best to decide ahead of time so you don't fall into that trap.
- awakeasleep 16y ago
  I totally agree with the small dose tip. Experiments among my friends and family lead me to recommend 25-50 mg as a sweet spot between effectivity and side effects. 200mg is an overdose obscured by modafinil's relatively benign effect profile and people's expectation of ill effects from drug use.
- CoffeeDregs 16y ago
  1) Totally agree. 100 mg made me nutty, aggressive; 50 mg still made me a bit agressive; 25mg is just right and makes me quite alert all day without making me an aggressive drone. 2) Totally agree. See #1, but I definitely look back at some interactions-while-on-100mg (super judgmental, aggressive) and think that I would have handled them better if not on modafinil. Interactions with my wife/kids can suffer. 3) Definitely. Taking modafinil without a plan leads to reading every article on Hacker News. Generally, I consider modafinil to be a tool. As when using a hammer, I don't look to accomplish tasks that don't benefit from the tool.
phowat 16y ago
I took ritalin for about a month to be able to play longer stretches of online poker. During the time I thought I was doing great but after reviewing my sessions later I discovered I was making a bunch of silly mistakes I don't think I would have done otherwise. And it was usually when I was already deep into the session, when I would otherwise have already stopped playing. After a month I found out that the amount of extra money was marginally paying for the cost of the drugs and stopped (yes, I played really small stakes). I know it's just anecdotal evidence and even my own sample size ( just one month ) is small but I think it's worth sharing.
zaidf 16y ago
I would say, if anything, I've had the opposite experience with adderall. I've had some crazy creative bursts. I am probably the exception because almost everyone I talk with has the opposite experience.
Construct 16y ago
Taking Modafinil will not make you smarter, but it will heavily diminish the negative effects of sleep deprivation. Remember, the primary indications for this medication are narcolepsy, sleep apnea, and excessive daytime sleepiness. It also increases dopamine and norepinephrine activity in certain areas of the brain, similar to Adderall and Ritalin, so it will boost your concentration. It actually showed a positive effect on concentration in ADHD treatment trials, but the FDA declined to approve it for that purpose due to some concerns over a rare skin-rash disorder. Many people are under the misconception that it is not a stimulant, but it most certainly is. As for controlled, double-blind trials, the results are not promising in non-sleep-deprived individuals. Controlled tests tend to show self-reported increases in restlessness, aggression, and anxiety, but the standardized cognitive and memory tests show very little, if any, improvement in the Modafinil groups. (See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672167 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672167 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738750 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738750 for more). Finally, don't try to import Modafinil (Provigil) into the US without a prescription. It is a Schedule IV controlled substance and the legal ramifications for importing a controlled substance can be serious. If you're still eager to try it outside of a doctor's supervision, which I definitely do not recommend, then know that Adrafinil is metabolized (partly) to Modafinil within the body but is not a controlled substance. Importing it is a still a gray area, though. Bottom line: Getting a healthy amount of sleep should be your #1 goal for cognitive improvement. If that isn't actually possible, then Modafinil could be helpful for reversing the effects of sleep deprivation. If concentration is your problem, Modafinil may help you, but you'd probably be better off pursuing proper ADHD treatment with a medication approved for ADHD.
- j_baker 16y ago
  One important thing that's worth noting: Just because you have trouble concentrating doesn't mean you have ADHD. There are a lot of other things that could cause that.
  - csomar 16y ago
    I met a good number of people who have problems in concentration. They can't focus even in the smallest tasks, especially if it is new and difficult (complicated). May be it's just fears that disturb their concentration.
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mindcreek 16y ago
I'm dyslexic, I cannot write with a pen and even though my discrete math is good I struggled throughout my school life and computer science degree with calculus and differentials etc. In my second year in university one of my teachers suggested to me I might be dyslexic and later I found a professor in an university hospital who deals with ADD and dyslexia in younger patients. She suggested to me Ritalin and then concerta which I didn't want to use then, after school when I really needed the 6-7 hour coding marathons for the projects I'm working on I strated using concerta and ritalin here is my experience. 1. My concentration is longer and more productive, the urge to continuously get up and do something else is gone. 2. As far as 3 years go I had no noticeable side effects, I asked my doctor about it and he told me methylfenidaat hydroclorine which is the active ingredient in both drugs is considered to safe and no long term effect are observed to date(about 20 years or so) 3. The drugs do not cause addiction because I had periods without the drugs one 6 months one three months just to prove myself I can do without them so far both were uneventful Except I went back to my old self. 4. My IQ or creativity seems unaffected by the drug I'm always the same. 5. I was forgetting little things my keys wallet phone back then after the drugs I don't. 6. If I forget to take the drug my wife or colleagues ask me If I forgot to take my pills today, so the difference is noticeable from the outside. 7. Both drugs are strictly controlled substances in Turkey so I have to struggle with bureaucracy every month for refills, renewals. Thanks for reading If you have any question I'll try to check the comments later.
- bkj123 16y ago
  Do you mind telling what dosages you were taking? Thank you.
  - mindcreek 16y ago
    36 mg concerta daily in the morning it usually keeps me on 12 hours or so. or a 10mg ritalin which keeps the effect about 5 hours or so so I can take another if it will be a long nigth, taking concerta in the nigth is not a good idea because you will burn out and wont be able to sleep if you decide to. Concerta is a small container with a laser drilled hole and a constant delivery mechanism for 12 hours or so and ritalin is bumpier on the dosage but concerta is more expensive about 120$ in Turkey for a month worth refill where ritalin is only 20$ for a month excluding the doctors fee which is 150$ so it costs around 200$ for a month and no insurance scheme covers it.
proexploit 16y ago
I'm not going to speak out for or against the use of smart drugs, but please note that although Adrafinil does metabolize to Modafinil and thus appears to be a legal (depending on your location) alternative, it can damage your liver and cause stomach pain.
digitailor 16y ago
I have a legal prescription for 200 mg Provigil. Many of the comments here have factual inaccuracies. - Provigil is Schedule IV, which is not highly restricted, and is prescribed on regular scrip paper, not DEA paper. - Some STATES restrict its dispersal more stringently, like New York, even with a scrip. Others do not, like California. - Provigil has NOT been classed a stimulant. Its action is currently described as "unknown." This information comes from my doctor and my doctor's PDR. EDIT: for grammar error, and mistake about its schedule level.
- j_baker 16y ago
  "Provigil is NOT a Schedule IV drug. It is prescribed on regular prescription paper, NOT DEA paper." I think you have it backwards. Schedule IV drugs are prescription-only, but don't require DEA papers like Schedule II drugs do (such as Adderall, Ritalin, etc). They aren't as highly regulated, but they do still require a prescription.
  - digitailor 16y ago
    You are correct; I forgot IV is not very stringent.
- digitailor 16y ago
  Incidentally, I have not yet found the harmful effects on creativity that the author has, but I do not take it every day. I have taken it in two week stretches with no loss of creativity. An extremely successful and creative entrepreneur I know takes it daily for narcolepsy.
seanmcq 16y ago
I can verify this behavior on Provigil. You shine at your full brilliance, but become incapable of having unique/new thoughts. I cut it completely, but I'm curious to see if the author has luck oscillating on it.
jedwhite 16y ago
Funnily enough I get a similar result from a good night's sleep, not eating crap, and going for a ride on my bike. It also helps weight loss. :)
beefman 16y ago
Try stablon.
- beefman 16y ago
  No seriously. I've tried most of the smart drugs in existence, had exactly the same reaction to modafinil, and found stablon does much of the same but without the drawback mentioned. YMMV, of course.
nickpinkston 16y ago
I resisted for many years, but I recently got a script for Adderall, and it's made me a better thinker and doer. I haven't experienced the lack of creativity that some report - on the contrary actually. I've also found that I sleep better - which is actually common my doctor says. I've been taking 15mg morning and after-lunch, but not on weekends so as to reduce my dependency and tolerance to it. This has worked well so far. I'm not sure if perhaps people who have the gene coding for reduced dopamine re-uptake (i.e. a big predictor of ADD diagnoses - like myself) are the ones who get the strongest benefits and the reports of bad reactions could possibly be from those without this genotype?
csomar 16y ago
Isn't their a natural counterpart? Like a mind hack or something similar. I found myself ,in the last week, deeply concentrating and working on something that is very boring and I usually tend to lose concentration on it very quickly. I was surprised how the hours passed without complaints. May be I ate something special that made that day goes like that, but I felt like I fall into that deep concentration state of mind. My creative abilities weren't touched, though.
markbao 16y ago
So you smoke some weed and take modafinil to get both?
keefe 16y ago
>Creative thoughts don't come to you any more. I've taken more than my share of modafinil and I've never experienced this.
baddox 16y ago
> Is this the equivalent of athletes taking steroids? Yes, they are equivalent, and both should be legal.

221 points by caustic 16y ago

Previous discussions: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190676 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190676 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524757 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524757

nikster 16y ago

The new discovery here is that the drug kills creativity - that's a pretty big deal for me. It's also quite different from meditation, which fosters creativity.

grovulent 16y ago
I think a better description of the process - at least, as it applies to my own usage (prescribed) goes like this: When you are on these sorts of drugs think of it as opening the tap. You execute with the full force of your creative reserves that you've built up. The more pent up you are - the more the ideas just pour through you as you write/code/compose - whatever. And because the tap is open, eventually the waters on one side of the dam level out with those on the other. The rate of creative execution slows down because it's not pent up. But I think it's a mistake to say one is LESS creative. You remain as creative as you ever were. The same amount of water flows through your stream as it ever did. One just doesn't have the same pent up backlog of ideas to execute anymore - just that steady stream.
- StavrosK 16y ago
  Basically, it doesn't sound like a bad idea to take a pill one weekend in the month. You'll do all the things you've been meaning to for ages, and then go back to normal. I'd try it myself if I weren't dubious of the "no side-effects" thing. I don't think it's very likely that a drug makes you supersmart without having ill effects...
  - dlokshin 16y ago
    Agreed. It seems extremely unlikely that a drug which alters your brain chemistry does not have any ill side effects. If it doesn't have chemically addictive properties, it most certainly has emotionally addictive qualities.
    - StavrosK 16y ago
      I just remember hearing about sudden deaths of people who were on a nootropic drug (not sure if it was this one). Does anyone remember the drug? I don't think the risk is worth the reward...
      - deleted 16y ago
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        swombat 16y ago
        I would not recommend driving on Modafinil. Too much focus can kill you on the road, and I have noticed that my ambient awareness feels reduced on Modafinil.
        deleted 16y ago
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  - grovulent 16y ago
    Depends on how much flow you have to start with I guess. As for side effects - they are there - but they are mild. If I stop taking them then the worst that happens is that I want to spend a day napping. But then I'm back to normal. Seriously - withdrawing for caffeine is much worse. Having said that. I don't actually advise that people take them without a prescription. Besides the obvious legal issues - there are people who genuinely need them just to have a reasonably normal life. Black market demand could make them more difficult to obtain for these people (especially me!).
  - dawson 16y ago

alexandradavis 16y ago

My experience matches caustics: I was able to settle into work, but my creativity was killed. I'd recommend smart drugs for doing drudgery, but if you need to engage the right brain for inventiveness, chocolate works great :)

roadnottaken 16y ago
I disagree, in a way. I used to take amphetamines when studying (adderall) and I'd find that I could completely get lost in whatever task I was pursuing. So, if I stayed focused on my study material, I'd absorb the material very thoroughly and quickly (relatively speaking). However, if I'd get distracted by something ~creative like, say, drawing a picture or composing a song (I didn't do any coding back then) I could get similarly lost in that task. That ability to "get lost" in something is, to me, very powerful creatively. Here's an example of the sort of artwork that I would do on speed that I probably wouldn't have the patience for, otherwise: http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5550/penroseknotv3sm.jpg http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5550/penroseknotv3sm.jpg I'm sure there are some types of creativity that are blunted, but the ability to direct extended focus and attention to any task (even creative ones) is a powerful thing that shouldn't be overlooked.
caustic 16y ago
Please note, I am not the author of the mentioned article. In fact, I never took Modafinil. I just remembered there was a decent discussion here at HN of the first part of the article, then I Googled and found there is follow up. So I decided to post it here.

MtL 16y ago

Have any programmers in here had any experiences with nootropics (*racetams, DMAE, etc)?

silentbicycle 16y ago
Yes. Search the archives for "piracetam", "aniracetam", etc. Discussions about nootropics seem to come up a few times a year (though they usually get derailed to talking about amphetamines and provigil pretty quickly).

dawson 16y ago

My experience with Concerta (albeit a different drug), is not the same. I have seen a massive increase in my ability to concentrate and complete tasks, as well as be creative (in relation to my start up and business development). Though, creativity is relative to any one person and context.

jakerocheleau 16y ago

I can't speak for Provigil but I've used both Focalin (dexmethylphenidate) and Adderall (basically amphetamines) to help me study/work on tough projects and have had phenomenal results. I don't notice any "lack" in my creativity and honestly I find myself pumping out higher-quality work when I can focus in and get "in the zone". My writing improves, programming skills shoot through the fucking roof, and I find I can work from many different perspectives on any given problem. Always in moderation of course. I couldn't imagine speeding every work day just to finish projects

dsplittgerber 16y ago

What I find most astonishing is that people administer 'smart' drugs without having the slightest clue to their long-term side effects. You discount long-term risks in favor of short-term gains. We humans simply don't understand much of what goes on in the brain - I wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences.

AngryParsley 16y ago
...long-term side effects. Modafinil has been around since the 70's. So far, no studies have found issues with long-term use. Actually, some studies found it to have a neuroprotective effect. I wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences. The environment we evolved in is quite different from the environment we now live in. Humans used to have much more limited supplies of food and nutrients. Our bodies are built for famine resistance instead of maximum performance. There's probably a similar trade-off in our brain functions, since the brain is a pretty big energy hog (responsible for around 25% of calories burned). We can use drugs to tweak the trade-offs made by evolution. We don't have to worry about food and nutrients today. Stimulants can decrease appetite and need for sleep, both of which would be disastrous in a food-limited environment. Even the effect of stimulants we find beneficial (spending hours in concentrated thought) would likely be harmful on the African savannah. The precautionary principle is too often applied in the case of enhancement. We don't completely understand the brain yet, but we do have some idea of how it works, and today there are safe effective drugs that improve cognitive abilities.
- rsheridan6 16y ago
  >So far, no studies have found issues with long-term use. Most likely translation: there have been no long-term studies of modafinil. A quick search doesn't turn any up.
- narrator 16y ago
  wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences. Although there are many illegal drugs that have negative consequences, the practice of applying this as a naive general law of medicine is largely a result of many years of this idea, or ideas similar to it, being drilled into us by the war on drugs propaganda machine. Each substance must be evaluated on a case by case basis and if people have been taking certain drugs for 30 years with no deleterious effect, the evidence is certainly in favor of long term safety, or even * gasp * benefit. There are other beliefs similar to this, such as any radio signal emitting device causes cancer, that have silently entered the culture as fact without much science to support them.

mr_luc 16y ago

This article could not have been written to tempt me any more effectively. 'It doesn't cause hyperfocused procrastination, like Adderal or Dexedrine. It's 'deep concentration.' And you can go off it whenever you want! It's a temporary smart pill with no withdrawal symptoms!' D'oh. "Get behind me, Satan!"

stygianguest 16y ago
Indeed, I myself have always been quite doubtfull of drugs' effectiveness. I used to attribute success much more to e.g. the discipline to refrain from browsing. This article makes me rethink that. As for the creativity, I'm not always sure that is a boon. When I encounter a particularly inspiring idea while studying something else, I find my mind wanders off in all directions with creative ideas, where I 'should' be concentrating on task at hand.
barrkel 16y ago
My experience has been that it leaves me drained for a couple of days afterwards, a little like a hangover but without any headache or sickness. It's not a free lunch. As to advantages, primarily modafinil stops me from feeling fatigued during the day, more than anything else; but I can still feel my brain getting tired, making more mistakes. It's just that the urge to take a break, rest, sleep etc. is numbed.
jfb 16y ago
Pros: it's killer for jet lag -- I fly between the US and HK fairly regularly, and suffer extraordinarily from jet lag. Modafinil helps a lot in reseting my internal clock. I also see the deep concentration effect, particularly on a project that I'm avoiding due to the inherent dullitude -- when high, I can power through stuff that I would deflect and ignore. On the down side, if I forget and drink a beer after taking Modafinil, the hangover is epic. Too, it makes my pee smell really weird. And I have a tendency towards chatterboxery, which is exacerbated beyond all reason. Anecdotes/evidence/&c.
- gwern 16y ago
  > Too, it makes my pee smell really weird. As people point out above, this is a good thing. Makes counterfeiting that much harder. It would be nice if all drugs came with such signatures of authenticity. ('Remember, real Viagra will cause a little shamrock tattoo to appear under your right armpit for an hour.')

danielnicollet 16y ago

I never even thought of taking a drug to get ahead or be better at what I do. I don't think I knew people did self-medicate to improve their productivity either. It seems so wrong to me and so unauthentic. The brain is a fragile mission critical component we know so little about. I am amazed so many seem here discuss it so candidly. Good luck and make sure you don't turn into veggies by 50 y.o.

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DanI-S 16y ago
If you're concerned about being inauthentic, you should write all your code on paper rather than using anything as performance-enhancing as a text editor. And forget about that morning coffee!
- danielnicollet 16y ago
  wow - you see no difference between coffee and a neural enhancer? this is way off the chart for me here. I have no difficulties seeing authenticity in what I do vs. the pill-popping programming regimen (maybe that's why I am getting downvoted here). I would also say it keep me very happy so far. So I wish good luck to those who choose that instead :)
  - petercooper 16y ago
    Perhaps not coffee, but caffeine, the active ingredient, is a "neural enhancer." Wikipedia defines it as a "psychoactive stimulant drug" and says that it "has a generally disinhibitory effect on neural activity." You would have done better to call out the comparison between using drugs and a text editor ;-)
    - danielnicollet 16y ago
      hehe - I am getting a coffee chemistry course now! I don't even drink coffee ;-) you would have done much better not replying at all.

dholowiski 16y ago

Side effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side_effects) In 2007, the FDA ordered Cephalon to modify the Provigil leaflet in bold-face print of several serious and potentially fatal conditions attributed to modafinil use, including TEN, DRESS syndrome, and Stevens-Johnson Syndrome (SJS). The long term safety and effectiveness of modafinil has not been determined. Webmd:http://bit.ly/9dSAg6 http://bit.ly/9dSAg6 Headache, nausea, nervousness, anxiety, dizziness, and difficulty sleeping may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify your doctor or pharmacist promptly. Tell your doctor immediately if any of these rare but serious side effects occur: mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, confusion, depression, abnormal thoughts, hallucinations). Seek immediate medical attention if any of these rare but very serious side effects occur: chest pain, fast/pounding/irregular heartbeat, signs of infection (e.g., fever, persistent sore throat).

AngryParsley 16y ago
6 cases over a decade. That's pretty safe in my book. You also left out the part about acute toxicity. For acute doses, Modafinil is safer than caffeine. The FDA is ridiculously risk-averse when it comes to approving drugs. For example, they recently rejected lorcaserin and qnexa, two anti-obesity drugs, over safety concerns. They also got sibutramine withdrawn from the US market. Even if these drugs have risks, the risks of obesity are likely much higher. A lot of people are going to die from obesity that would have been saved if these drugs were approved. Of course, the media reports when approved drugs cause harm, not when rejected drugs don't save lives.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Pharmaceutical products in the US that have unexpected side-effects can cause their owner to be sued into oblivion, and even incredibly rare side effects are likely to manifest if a large population is taking them. (Also, the population at large does not understand statistics & probability.) Look at the history of Thalidomide, that's where a lot of precedents were set. This puts certain categories of drugs (anything for pregnant women, nootropics for people without alzheimers, etc.) in the "too risky to bother" category.

araneae 16y ago

My SO takes Provigil infrequently and has reported no loss of creativity. Next this guy is going to tell us that LSD bring him closer to God, and you're going to believe him? Anecdotal evidence about the effects of drugs are mostly worthless.

swombat 16y ago
For what it's worth, depending on your definition of God and how much LSD you take, I'd be inclined to believe that second statement. I agree that anecdotal evidence is not worth much, however the problem with psychoactive drugs is that many of the most interesting effects are subjective (and thus the best data is always anecdotal) and that scientific studies of certain interesting drugs is illegal. Anecdotal evidence may not be worth much, but it's certainly worth more than prejudices based on zero evidence. Also worth pointing out that not all interesting things in life can be studied with objective double-blind studies.
deleted 16y ago
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corin_ 16y ago

Can anyone recomend somewhere to get hold of a (preferably small) amount of Provigil? (Shipping to UK) Would like to try it myself. edit: Found http://www.unitedpharmacies.co.uk/product.php?productid=973&cat=0&page=1 http://www.unitedpharmacies.co.uk/product.php?productid=973&... and placed a small order with a throwaway credit card, will see if that arrives in the next 7-14 days as promised. Would still like any recomendations, though.

swombat 16y ago
I've ordered a number of times from: http://www.qhi.co.uk/intro.asp http://www.qhi.co.uk/intro.asp They have not defrauded the cards I used and the stuff they delivered was, as far as I could tell, real (both from the packaging and from the effects).
- corin_ 16y ago
  Thanks for the link - pretty expensive at 30 for 81euro (Alertec) or 30 for 143euro (Provigil)
  - swombat 16y ago
    Well, I know a number of websites where you can buy sugar pills for a lot cheaper... I ordered the Alertec from those guys quite a few times, and it always arrived without any issues. There's a slightly fussy initial sign-up procedure which involves sending them a fax, but beyond that I've had no problems.
    - corin_ 16y ago
      Have taken your advice and ordered 30x100mg of the Alertec, and will sort the fax out on Monday - cheers :) (I assume I'm right in thinking there's no advantage to Provigil over Alertec?)
      - swombat 16y ago
        I don't know, I always took the Alertec. As far as I know there should be no difference, but I'm not a pharmacologist...

joelangeway 16y ago

You'll find more scientifically oriented articles about this subject if you call it nootropics. Here is another personal (not me) anecdote about it which comes off quite differently. http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-research-condensed-a-total-newbies-guide-to-nootropics/ http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-resea...

scotth 16y ago

There's a lot of conjecture here. Not sure why it's being upvoted.

0-4 16y ago
Hacker news is pro drugs now. I guess it's just topical what with the weed vote.

chapel 16y ago

This seems to pop up a lot. After reading about this the first time I researched for about a month before purchasing any. My general experience with them is that they work, they keep you up longer than you would normally be able to, they keep you alert, you don't feel like you are hopped up either. The effect only lasts so long though, after being up for over 24 hours, your body gets tired, and the effectiveness of the drug gets worse. I didn't really go past 36 hours, but if I wanted to I could have. Note that I didn't purposely try and stay up all those times, I work graveyard shifts and ended up having important things come up when I needed to sleep and I was forced to stay up. Modafinil really did help me when I was tired, but as far as being a 'smart drug' it wasn't exactly mind blowing. It did make it easier to focus, but I could just as easily focus on a TV show, or a website, versus a piece of code I wanted to finish. So if you need to stay up, study, or get something done and you are determined to do it, this is great. If you want something to augment your day to day life and make you 'smarter' this really isn't for you. Though there are more things popping up saying that it might have worse long term side effects than previously thought, I didn't really have any that I know of, but if I get brain cancer in a year I guess I know why. :)

farnsworth 16y ago
And may I ask where you purchased it?

silentbicycle 16y ago

Wow! Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! I give it one hour before people start mentioning Erdos and talking about amphetamines instead. (Edit: Yup, and now I'm getting downvoted.) Here's a much better article about actual smart drugs (http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics), and its HN discussion (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959). Sorting them in terms of risk & body load is a good idea, I think. He's not kidding when he says vaso-/desmopressin messes with homeostasis. The racetams (piracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, etc.) are probably the least risky, though I've had the best long-term effects from getting enough sleep and exercise, eating reasonably well, and not spiking and crashing on caffeine all the time. If you want to try nootropics, be informed and careful, and address the obvious factors that may be messing with your concentration first. (For me it was sleep debt and too much caffeine.)

joshu 16y ago
Modafinil isn't a stimulant.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Then what is it? I don't have a PDR on hand, but Wikipedia says it's an "analeptic", a central nervous system stimulant used specifically to control sleepiness.
  - digitailor 16y ago
    The PDR describes its action as "unknown."
    - silentbicycle 16y ago
      Does that mean something like, "it has stimulant-like effects, but its actual mechanism is more complex and not fully understood"? Serious question, not trying to sound flippant.

binarymax 16y ago

How do these drugs effect memory? If you can tear through books while on Provigil, is what you learned well retained when your brain reverts to its "scrappier state"?

zkirill 16y ago

My concern is that once you start taking these drugs to artificially boost your intelligence your natural ability to concentrate without them might atrophy because it's no longer used. I guess this isn't an issue if you only take them every now and then, but isn't it a better idea to seek alternate ways to energize your brain that use your own body such as having a solid exercise routine, proper diet and getting enough sleep?

confuzatron 16y ago

If anyone needs smart drugs it's Johann Hari. That he's currently running in scrappy mode does explain the sloppiness of his journalism though. (Note to downvoter: I say this because he's notorious for peppering his feel-good rants with factual inaccuracies)

swombat 16y ago

My experience was similar. I wouldn't say it kills all your creativity, but it makes it slightly more unnatural to practice lateral thinking. That said, I have come up with some great ideas while on Modafinil. My best tips if you're going to use this drug is: 1) Take a very small dose. 50mg (taken around 8 or 9) is usually more than enough to get me through the day. Occasionally I used to take a 25mg bump in the early afternoon which carried over the hyper feeling into the early evening. 2) Try it out on a day when you're by yourself first, so you understand how it changes your perception of the world, because it does alter your perception. You might be quicker to make decisions or react to things, and you need to understand this and compensate for it before you interact with other people. If you can't be alone, at least tell your partner about it so they understand that you might behave slightly differently over that period (possibly more aggressively...). 3) The best way to make the most of it, for me, has been to prepare a solid list of big items that I want to get through before I take it, so I don't have to think about what to do next. Modafinil allows you to focus really well on whatever it is you decide to do, but it really doesn't help your executive ability (i.e. deciding what to do). I did once find myself having a really solid, focused, deep, 6-hour session of World of Warcraft. Don't give yourself too much opportunity to wander, or you'll find yourself doing anything that comes to your mind (whether that's reading a book, cleaning the kitchen, reorganising your office, or actually doing some productive work). Best to decide ahead of time so you don't fall into that trap.

awakeasleep 16y ago
I totally agree with the small dose tip. Experiments among my friends and family lead me to recommend 25-50 mg as a sweet spot between effectivity and side effects. 200mg is an overdose obscured by modafinil's relatively benign effect profile and people's expectation of ill effects from drug use.
CoffeeDregs 16y ago
1) Totally agree. 100 mg made me nutty, aggressive; 50 mg still made me a bit agressive; 25mg is just right and makes me quite alert all day without making me an aggressive drone. 2) Totally agree. See #1, but I definitely look back at some interactions-while-on-100mg (super judgmental, aggressive) and think that I would have handled them better if not on modafinil. Interactions with my wife/kids can suffer. 3) Definitely. Taking modafinil without a plan leads to reading every article on Hacker News. Generally, I consider modafinil to be a tool. As when using a hammer, I don't look to accomplish tasks that don't benefit from the tool.

phowat 16y ago

I took ritalin for about a month to be able to play longer stretches of online poker. During the time I thought I was doing great but after reviewing my sessions later I discovered I was making a bunch of silly mistakes I don't think I would have done otherwise. And it was usually when I was already deep into the session, when I would otherwise have already stopped playing. After a month I found out that the amount of extra money was marginally paying for the cost of the drugs and stopped (yes, I played really small stakes). I know it's just anecdotal evidence and even my own sample size ( just one month ) is small but I think it's worth sharing.

zaidf 16y ago

I would say, if anything, I've had the opposite experience with adderall. I've had some crazy creative bursts. I am probably the exception because almost everyone I talk with has the opposite experience.

Construct 16y ago

Taking Modafinil will not make you smarter, but it will heavily diminish the negative effects of sleep deprivation. Remember, the primary indications for this medication are narcolepsy, sleep apnea, and excessive daytime sleepiness. It also increases dopamine and norepinephrine activity in certain areas of the brain, similar to Adderall and Ritalin, so it will boost your concentration. It actually showed a positive effect on concentration in ADHD treatment trials, but the FDA declined to approve it for that purpose due to some concerns over a rare skin-rash disorder. Many people are under the misconception that it is not a stimulant, but it most certainly is. As for controlled, double-blind trials, the results are not promising in non-sleep-deprived individuals. Controlled tests tend to show self-reported increases in restlessness, aggression, and anxiety, but the standardized cognitive and memory tests show very little, if any, improvement in the Modafinil groups. (See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672167 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672167 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738750 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738750 for more). Finally, don't try to import Modafinil (Provigil) into the US without a prescription. It is a Schedule IV controlled substance and the legal ramifications for importing a controlled substance can be serious. If you're still eager to try it outside of a doctor's supervision, which I definitely do not recommend, then know that Adrafinil is metabolized (partly) to Modafinil within the body but is not a controlled substance. Importing it is a still a gray area, though. Bottom line: Getting a healthy amount of sleep should be your #1 goal for cognitive improvement. If that isn't actually possible, then Modafinil could be helpful for reversing the effects of sleep deprivation. If concentration is your problem, Modafinil may help you, but you'd probably be better off pursuing proper ADHD treatment with a medication approved for ADHD.

j_baker 16y ago
One important thing that's worth noting: Just because you have trouble concentrating doesn't mean you have ADHD. There are a lot of other things that could cause that.
- csomar 16y ago
  I met a good number of people who have problems in concentration. They can't focus even in the smallest tasks, especially if it is new and difficult (complicated). May be it's just fears that disturb their concentration.

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mindcreek 16y ago

I'm dyslexic, I cannot write with a pen and even though my discrete math is good I struggled throughout my school life and computer science degree with calculus and differentials etc. In my second year in university one of my teachers suggested to me I might be dyslexic and later I found a professor in an university hospital who deals with ADD and dyslexia in younger patients. She suggested to me Ritalin and then concerta which I didn't want to use then, after school when I really needed the 6-7 hour coding marathons for the projects I'm working on I strated using concerta and ritalin here is my experience. 1. My concentration is longer and more productive, the urge to continuously get up and do something else is gone. 2. As far as 3 years go I had no noticeable side effects, I asked my doctor about it and he told me methylfenidaat hydroclorine which is the active ingredient in both drugs is considered to safe and no long term effect are observed to date(about 20 years or so) 3. The drugs do not cause addiction because I had periods without the drugs one 6 months one three months just to prove myself I can do without them so far both were uneventful Except I went back to my old self. 4. My IQ or creativity seems unaffected by the drug I'm always the same. 5. I was forgetting little things my keys wallet phone back then after the drugs I don't. 6. If I forget to take the drug my wife or colleagues ask me If I forgot to take my pills today, so the difference is noticeable from the outside. 7. Both drugs are strictly controlled substances in Turkey so I have to struggle with bureaucracy every month for refills, renewals. Thanks for reading If you have any question I'll try to check the comments later.

bkj123 16y ago
Do you mind telling what dosages you were taking? Thank you.
- mindcreek 16y ago
  36 mg concerta daily in the morning it usually keeps me on 12 hours or so. or a 10mg ritalin which keeps the effect about 5 hours or so so I can take another if it will be a long nigth, taking concerta in the nigth is not a good idea because you will burn out and wont be able to sleep if you decide to. Concerta is a small container with a laser drilled hole and a constant delivery mechanism for 12 hours or so and ritalin is bumpier on the dosage but concerta is more expensive about 120$ in Turkey for a month worth refill where ritalin is only 20$ for a month excluding the doctors fee which is 150$ so it costs around 200$ for a month and no insurance scheme covers it.

proexploit 16y ago

I'm not going to speak out for or against the use of smart drugs, but please note that although Adrafinil does metabolize to Modafinil and thus appears to be a legal (depending on your location) alternative, it can damage your liver and cause stomach pain.

digitailor 16y ago

I have a legal prescription for 200 mg Provigil. Many of the comments here have factual inaccuracies. - Provigil is Schedule IV, which is not highly restricted, and is prescribed on regular scrip paper, not DEA paper. - Some STATES restrict its dispersal more stringently, like New York, even with a scrip. Others do not, like California. - Provigil has NOT been classed a stimulant. Its action is currently described as "unknown." This information comes from my doctor and my doctor's PDR. EDIT: for grammar error, and mistake about its schedule level.

j_baker 16y ago
"Provigil is NOT a Schedule IV drug. It is prescribed on regular prescription paper, NOT DEA paper." I think you have it backwards. Schedule IV drugs are prescription-only, but don't require DEA papers like Schedule II drugs do (such as Adderall, Ritalin, etc). They aren't as highly regulated, but they do still require a prescription.
- digitailor 16y ago
  You are correct; I forgot IV is not very stringent.
digitailor 16y ago
Incidentally, I have not yet found the harmful effects on creativity that the author has, but I do not take it every day. I have taken it in two week stretches with no loss of creativity. An extremely successful and creative entrepreneur I know takes it daily for narcolepsy.

seanmcq 16y ago

I can verify this behavior on Provigil. You shine at your full brilliance, but become incapable of having unique/new thoughts. I cut it completely, but I'm curious to see if the author has luck oscillating on it.

jedwhite 16y ago

Funnily enough I get a similar result from a good night's sleep, not eating crap, and going for a ride on my bike. It also helps weight loss. :)

beefman 16y ago

Try stablon.

beefman 16y ago
No seriously. I've tried most of the smart drugs in existence, had exactly the same reaction to modafinil, and found stablon does much of the same but without the drawback mentioned. YMMV, of course.

nickpinkston 16y ago

I resisted for many years, but I recently got a script for Adderall, and it's made me a better thinker and doer. I haven't experienced the lack of creativity that some report - on the contrary actually. I've also found that I sleep better - which is actually common my doctor says. I've been taking 15mg morning and after-lunch, but not on weekends so as to reduce my dependency and tolerance to it. This has worked well so far. I'm not sure if perhaps people who have the gene coding for reduced dopamine re-uptake (i.e. a big predictor of ADD diagnoses - like myself) are the ones who get the strongest benefits and the reports of bad reactions could possibly be from those without this genotype?

csomar 16y ago

Isn't their a natural counterpart? Like a mind hack or something similar. I found myself ,in the last week, deeply concentrating and working on something that is very boring and I usually tend to lose concentration on it very quickly. I was surprised how the hours passed without complaints. May be I ate something special that made that day goes like that, but I felt like I fall into that deep concentration state of mind. My creative abilities weren't touched, though.

markbao 16y ago

So you smoke some weed and take modafinil to get both?

keefe 16y ago

>Creative thoughts don't come to you any more. I've taken more than my share of modafinil and I've never experienced this.

baddox 16y ago

> Is this the equivalent of athletes taking steroids? Yes, they are equivalent, and both should be legal.