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American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island
- ProAm 8y ago> a remote island inhabited by a tribe whose members have killed outsiders for simply stepping on their shore. I'm not sure what he expected.
- cronix 8y agoI wonder if this young man also had to touch the red hot stove after being warned that it would burn him. Just another fine recipient of the "Darwin Award"... > The fishermen said that tribesmen had shot arrows at him and that he had retreated. He apparently tried several more times to reach the island over the next two days, the police say, offering gifts such as a small soccer ball, fishing line and scissors. But on the morning of Nov. 17, the fishermen said they saw the islanders with his body.
- ianwalter 8y agoAnd thats why you dont do that.
- option_greek 8y agoAs horrific as it may sound, I hope his rotting body won't make the islanders sick. Human contact in the past had wiped out some of the Andaman tribes due to the lack of resistance to many diseases.
- whatshisface 8y agoAt least one of them deserves to get sick, they did kill someone after all. You could argue that it's not wrong to kill if you don't have any treaties between your respective states but then it wouldn't be wrong to spread disease either.
- quicklime 8y agoThe few contacts that the North Sentinelese have had with the outside world have often resulted in kidnappings, death and disease being bought into the island. Given the few data points they have, it seems reasonable for them to want to avoid any further foreign contact.
- whatshisface 8y agoThey were armed combatants and the person they killed was a civilian. I can think of loads of people that I could shoot with a bow to protect my interests, and the fact that I have not signed any treaties to not do it doesn't mean I can.
- Steko 8y agoPerhaps they felt threatened and have a primitive belief that allows them to kill people whenever this happens. Like in Florida.
- ThrowawayR2 8y agoIt seems rather improbable that a pre-civilization tribe even has the concepts of "armed combatant" or "civilian" in the modern day sense of those words.
- oh_sigh 8y agoMaybe if they killed a person they invited onto their island would it be just for the killer to be punished. But he wasn't invited onto the island, he thought he could just waltz in with a soccer ball and some fishing gear. This is essentially just castle doctrine. He apparently also swam back to the fishermans boat with arrow wounds, but went back to the island anyway.
- whatshisface 8y agoIf any country on Earth killed a citizen of another country at the border there would be a gigantic outrage.
- em3rgent0rdr 8y ago"According to health professionals, the fear of spread of disease by bodies killed by trauma rather than disease is not justified. Among others, Steven Rottman, director of the UCLA Center for Public Health and Disasters, said that no scientific evidence exists that bodies of disaster victims increase the risk of epidemics, adding that cadavers posed less risk of contagion than living people." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_risks_from_dead_bodies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_risks_from_dead_bodies
- option_greek 8y agoInteresting.. I'm sure its probably not true and definitely far fetched but I wonder if this is why the tribe has adopted the practice of converting their living visitors to dead cadavers.
- qiqing 8y agoIn this case, a living person would also pose a risk. These islanders don't have the same immune system that the population the health professionals are looking after have, just like Native Americans didn't have the same immune system as Europeans.
- jessaustin 8y agoIt's not comparable to the "New World" situation. These islands are close to the continent and had regular (if dangerous) visits from modern people throughout the twentieth century. We have no reason to think that Chau carried a deadly disease.
- huckyaus 8y agoThanks. I'll happily trust someone called Rottman when it comes to decomposing bodies.
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoI thought this was going to be another drunken mistake like the two fishermen who died in 2006. No, apparently, this guy thought he was going to bring Jesus to a bunch of famously xenophobic murderers. Any death is a tragedy, but it's hard to feel terribly bad about this one.
- runjake 8y ago"Murderers" is in the eye of the beholder. From their perspective, they are defending their land and people from invaders.
- lightbyte 8y ago>From their perspective, they are defending their land and people from invaders. In this case that is what it looks like from my perspective as well
- classicsnoot 8y agoI wonder if your generosity in interpretation extends to modern cultures and their borders.
- Jtsummers 8y agoBy "modern" I'll interpret that to mean "a nation generally participating in the global community": I'd say, they have every right to defend their borders from invaders. But they also have knowledge that these islanders don't have. They have an understanding that outsiders are not all belligerent and to be feared or non-entities to be killed (though some will act counter to that knowledge, see the stoked fear in the US about the migrant caravan, or the way North Korea treats many outsiders). So it's easier to cast judgment on "modern" nations and cultures who kill on sight, because they really should know better and be better able to discern true threats from mere nuisances.
- verroq 8y agoI don’t believe in moral relativism. They don’t get a pass for not knowing better. Just as their victims didn’t get a pass for not knowing better.
- tlholaday 8y agoThe Passionate and Objective Jokerfan's cautionary song: https://youtu.be/3dvc51JK7Qw https://youtu.be/3dvc51JK7Qw
- cockatoo2 8y agoMaybe the idiot felt like he was Columbus
- yesenadam 8y ago..a remote Indian island, North Sentinel, that I learned all about after it was mentioned on HN a couple of weeks ago. Small world! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island ..which led to reading about other "uncontacted peoples", a fascinating and sad story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples edit: Oh, it was 8 days ago. I submitted this[1] ripping yarn about an American with an anthropologist father and Yanomami mother returning to South America to find his mother after 20 years. I'd read his father's book about his life, work and marriage years ago. Bob Connolly & Robin Anderson's amazing Highlands Trilogy[2] is about a mixed-race man trying to run a coffee plantation while living between western society and his New Guinea tribe. His father was the first white man to contact the tribe. Jared Diamond's The World Until Yesterday[3] brought home for me what human life was like until very recently. You couldn't travel far in any direction without the tribe next door trying to kill you. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18438586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18438586 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Contact_(1983_film)#The_Highlands_Trilogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Contact_(1983_film)#The_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Until_Yesterday https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Until_Yesterday
- RufusJacksons 8y agoDon’t know if read down to the Waorani people on that wiki article - but I followed the same trajectory from the HN post last week. I’ve had the pleasure to have hiked out from Shell Ecuador to a Waoroni village and spent some tine with them (they speared a number of Christian missionaries to death in the 50’s) and it’s quite fascinating how their culture has changed from one of the most violant to a peaceful one, and their population size has increased substantially since their conversion The “Christian” movie The End of The Spear documents that tribe and I’m happy to say that I’ve met many of the original “spearers” and they are alive and well and mentoring the young villagers on living peacefully
- yesenadam 8y agoThanks. P.S. The documentary Beyond the Gates of Splendor by the same director about the same story sounds better. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337868/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337868/
- deanCommie 8y ago> Mr. Pathak said Mr. Chau, believed to be 26 or 27 and from Washington State, may have been trying to convert the islanders to Christianity. Right before he left in his kayak, Mr. Chau gave the fishermen a long note. In it, police officials said, he had written that Jesus had bestowed him with the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth. A perfect storm of Christian and American arrogance.
- dev_dull 8y agoFor people who are prepared to die for what they believe in, Mr. Chau seems to be among them.
- classicsnoot 8y agoTittered the European, dripping with blood from every corner of the map.
- dang 8y agoReacting to nasty flamewar with nasty flamewar will get you banned just as well. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this on HN again.
- JPKab 8y agoPlease explain to me how the fact that he happens to be American is proven to be causal here? I guess you make a good point. After all, the missionaries who converted indigenous populations all over the world were all from the USA. Oh wait, no. The vast majority of the Christian missions were founded by Europeans. Arabs converted millions to Islam hundreds of years ago. But yeah, they were all infected with American arrogance.
- kapauldo 8y agoLet's agree on the Christian arrogance then
- facistsSuck 8y ago
- swatkat 8y agoWhat he did was illegal. Access to the island is restricted for a reason. >>> But Mr. Chau pushed ahead in his kayak, which he had packed with a Bible. After that, it is a bit of a mystery what happened. Also, can these evangelists take a break? It's not 1600s anymore.
- WhompingWindows 8y agoTheir religion and its proponents teach them to spread the word, they won't take a break. It's what separates Christianity and Islam from the majority of non-proselytizing religions.
- Udik 8y agoI don't see catholic christians setting up missions with the primary purpose of proselytizing. In many respects it is true that American evangelical churches are much more retrograde than the Catholic church itself, promoting a brand of religion that is, for example, self-righteous, anti-scientific, and putting particular emphasis on the more archaic and brutal Old Testament.
- ryanmercer 8y ago>I don't see catholic christians setting up missions with the primary purpose of proselytizing. Because they did most of it starting in the middle ages and the Age of Discovery. In fact that's mostly what the Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits did in California, South America and Asia from 1500ish to well into the late 1800's.
- Udik 8y agoOf course, I'm talking about the current situation.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> I don't see catholic christians setting up missions with the primary purpose of proselytizing. To the extent that is true, it is a post-Vatican II reform (and proselytization is still an important function of Catholic missionary work, though the method of more persuasion by example.)
- mavdi 8y ago“Jesus had bestowed him with the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth” To go, yes. To survive, evidently not.
- xutopia 8y agoI'm fascinated by these people. They must have one heck of a culture to immediately resort to killing any stranger that lands on their shore. I wonder what religious beliefs they have and what kind of society creates what seems to be extreme and violent xenophobia to us. As fascinated as I am I would double check that I have something to row with if I take a motorboat out to see the island from afar. No way in hell I'd want to step foot on that island or be at bow and arrow distance.
- tfha 8y agoThey have to protect themselves from disease. If the wrong microbe makes contact, it could result in genocide.
- lightbyte 8y agoDo they actually know that though?
- inawarminister 8y agoYes? You don't need science or even literacy to tell your (grand)children that everyone who meets outsiders die messily (cf. All Andamanese except for 80-strong Jorwa(?) and this North Sentilenese tribe)
- xutopia 8y agoI realize that they probably have seen some bad things happen from contacts with the outside but I doubt they have an understanding of germ theory of disease yet. I assume they have stories they repeat to one another, maybe songs or warnings they provide to one another to encourage this ruthless xenophobia. I'd love to know what those things are.
- crooked-v 8y agoIt's not hard to make a connection between "a foreigner shows up" and "people suddenly start dying of weird unknown diseases" when the entire population is small enough for everyone to individually recognize everyone else.
- ribs 8y agoI read in one article that there was a recent change in law involving the Sentinelese that might have encouraged Chau to go there. Can anyone corroborate?
- flocial 8y agoA more accurate title: "American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow for Illegally Invading Remote Indian Island"
- verroq 8y agoMaybe they should build a wall? Funny how leftists come out of the woodwork to justify murder while screaming open borders.
- dang 8y agoTaking a thread like this straight into ideological flamewar like this is exactly what we don't want and the sort of thing we ban people for. Will you please not do it on HN?
- throwaway5752 8y ago"The 27-year-old American, identified as John Allen Chau, came to India on a tourist visa but came to the Andaman and Nicobar islands in October with the express purpose of proselytizing, Dependra Pathak, Director General of Police of the Andaman and Nicobar islands, told CNN. "We refuse to call him a tourist. Yes, he came on a tourist visa but he came with a specific purpose to preach on a prohibited island," Pathak said. Chau did not inform the police of his intentions to travel to the island to attempt to convert its inhabitants." https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/asia/andaman-nicobar-us-missionary-killed-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/asia/andaman-nicobar-us-missi...
- projectramo 8y agoThe comments here are horrific. Yes, I don't think we should invade the lives of indigenous people any more than you do. And yes, I think this young man was mistaken and misguided. But, he went in with the best of intentions, and he died. You just don't believe what he did. Imagine a techie died while trying to teach rails to the homeless (which, I can only assume, some of you might be more sympathetic towards), would you feel the same way? Edit: p.s. The rails thing is a joke, but not the rest of it.
- swatkat 8y agoA techie might teach Rails to a homeless person if that person wants to learn Rails.
- bediger4000 8y agoHobos prefer Python to Ruby. Everyone knows that.
- beat 8y agoIf it was actually against the law to teach Rails to the homeless, in order to protect them? Yeah.
- verroq 8y agoI didn’t know that death was a proportational or appropiate sentence for this crime. And I am willing to bet that whatever Indian law he violated it wasn’t a capital offence.
- crooked-v 8y agoIndian law is at best marginally applicable, as the Indian government treats the Sentinelese as a de facto mostly-sovereign protectorate. The use of force in repelling unwanted visitors is one of the basic prerogatives of any nation, even a very tiny one, and the Sentinelese even follow a reasonably ethical use-of-force continuum, with shouts and then warning shots before only shooting to kill if someone doesn't leave on their own.
- throwawaywhynot 8y agoMisleading title. It's technically correct but conveys an erroneous message.
- module0000 8y agoFunny how the world has evolved. A couple hundred years ago, natives killing a member of another civilization usually resulted in that civilization sending a militia to exterminate/enslave those natives. The times have changed.
- nindalf 8y agoLots of people talking about his intent to convert the Sentinelese. Maybe that's relevant, but I feel like the main talking point should be that he went to a place where everyone warned him not to go to because it was dangerous and forbidden. He knew the risks and deliberately tried to circumvent the patrols by setting out at night time. Patrols that existed as much for his safety as for the islanders'. Even when met with initial hostility, he persisted in try to land on an island where he was clearly unwelcome. This man deserves no sympathy.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoI'm not too thrilled with the comments here that are defending his decision to go there as clearly some kind of good thing because his stated motive was Christianity. I'm just going to leave this here and say no more on the matter: “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/matthew/7/ https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/matthew/7/
- jessaustin 8y agoThe Sentinelese also do not appreciate pork: Once, when Mr. Pandit’s expedition offered a pig to the Sentinelese, two members of the tribe walked to the edge of the beach, “speared it” and buried it in the sand.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- smsm42 8y agoIt is fascinating - and unsettling - how many people react to this on range of "ha-ha, stupid medieval idiot, deserved to be murdered" to "typical American!". I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western culture do, and murdering people for trespassing on some taboo barely comprehensible to outsiders is not very far from our culture either. But what I see is a person trying to do a subjectively good thing to the islanders (even though one can certainly disagree about it being objectively good, but it's clear he meant absolutely no harm to them) and objectively at least not doing anything we'd consider harmful - getting murdered. I don't think it warrants derision and mockery that I am reading here, and I don't think such reaction would follow if he wasn't an American Christian. It is true than in the past Christians participated in many atrocities (not that it's in any way unique to Christians), including against indigenous people - but this person has nothing to do with it. He meant no harm, and he got murdered for it. It is tragic, and should not be a place to make fun of his religion (even if you consider it and all religions stupid in general, there are many more befitting opportunities to make fun of them than a murder of an innocent person) and blaming him for being American. Yes, maybe he is not the cleverest cookie in the jar, and he probably shouldn't have done what he did. But making fun of his murder goes far beyond that, and I am positively horrified of how many people jump into that so readily and with such gusto.
- neeleshs 8y ago"objectively at least not doing anything we'd consider harmful" - According to the article, these islanders have been isolated for several thousand years. Newcomers can bring disaster to them via infections against which they may have no defense. We've seen how that played out in the mediterranean islands and of course, the americas. Edit: Again, absolutely sad that a human life was lost. I do not condone making mockery of the dead.
- ankitml 8y agoIt has been documented that this tribe does not have immunity to many common diseases "outside world" has including flu etc. He was a danger to the tribe. Not only he was danger to the tribe, he was breaking all local laws as well. Even citizens of India are not allowed to go there.
- 8y ago
- jadell 8y agoIf anyone is interested in an entertaining and informative podcast about North Sentinel, check our Jake Barton's Historium episode[0], from just a couple weeks ago. Also, I highly recommend the entire podcast. [0] https://www.orbitaljigsaw.com/podcasts/historium/41-the-island-lost-in-time/ https://www.orbitaljigsaw.com/podcasts/historium/41-the-isla...
- dang 8y agoAll: those of you turning this into religious and national flamewar are violating the site guidelines and significantly degrading the thread. Please don't do that on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html