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Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E
- fvrghl 8y agoNon-paywall: https://outline.com/62WBbd https://outline.com/62WBbd
- mzs 8y agofor those that can't read WSJ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46288510 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46288510
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- CosmicShadow 8y agoI don't know why anyone would visit a country with such insane laws, it's just too dangerous. Sure they seem to have a lot of interesting stuff going on and to see, but a big fat NOPE after you read anything about their rules and how they treat people!
- alexis_fr 8y agoLook at Japan: 23-day police custody period. After that there’s a 99.99% confession rate. Carlos Ghosn, president of Nissan, seems to have just discovered it: He will be interrogated for 12 days. I would never go to such countries.
- dec0dedab0de 8y agoThat is the conviction rate, not the confession rate. Which has completely different connotations.
- Animats 8y agoMark Karpelès, the Mt. Gox guy, was arrested in Japan, interrogated, and he still got off.
- mc32 8y agoIndeed, the conviction rate has much to do with police picking “open and shut” cases. Which is why there are cases where murders are instead classified as accidents, if itd be hard to prove a case.
- Latteland 8y agoJapan is not going to torture him, keep him up without letting him sleep are they? They have the rule of law and generally treat people well. You can't seriously compare those countries, can you?
- Cyph0n 8y agoIt’s definitely much better than KSA, but 23 days in police custody? Most people would break under the pressure alone - no torture necessary...
- rurban 8y agoWhat I heard about treating foreigners in Japanese police stations qualifies indeed as torture. The rule of law applies when you confess.
- liftbigweights 8y ago> After that there’s a 99.99% confession rate. That's because prosecutors in Japan and other countries generally go after "sure" cases. Canada has a 97% conviction. US has a 93% conviction rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate > Carlos Ghosn, president of Nissan, seems to have just discovered it: He will be interrogated for 12 days. I would never go to such countries. At least he'll get court case rather than disappearing in a japanese embassy. Japan has its problem but it's absurd to compare it to the horrors in the middle east.
- stefan_ 8y agoPre-trial detention isn't exactly a japanese invention.
- Kiro 8y agoLike what? It's a very popular tourist destination. Yes, they treat immigrants bad but calling it dangerous for tourists?
- Oras 8y agoLike this may be? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/british-driver-jail-swearing-road-rage-dubai-jamil-ahmed-mukadam-uae-a7958511.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/british...
- jliptzin 8y agoCan you tell me what is so interesting to see in these countries that it’s worth potentially sacrificing your freedom or your life for what we consider minor infractions?
- twelvechairs 8y ago> for what we consider minor infractions? International spying in this case? I'm not sure thats a minor infraction
- jliptzin 8y agoNot this specific case but I have read numerous times about small time things that result in decades in prison or worse in these backwards countries, a sibling has provided an example. In this case I still don’t see what warrants a life sentence.
- Kiro 8y agoDubai is the fourth most popular city to visit in the world after London, Paris and Bangkok. Again, you're completely exaggerating when you say these things happen all the time. In Sweden it's a very common tourist destination and I've never heard anyone that have had problems with law enforcement or anything else. I also know Swedish people who have lived and worked there for extended period of times.
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- 2RTZZSro 8y agoIn the United States of America, all it takes for you to receive universal condemnation, character assassination, prison torture, prison rape, and a life sentence all at the same time is the presence of a SEQUENCE OF BYTES ON YOUR HARD DRIVE THAT ANYBODY COULD HAVE PLACED THERE
- frereubu 8y agoA female friend who's a paediatrician was being courted by the Saudi government to come and start a programme there. Women's health - including pregnancy and childbirth - was dreadful because all doctors were male but they weren't allowed to touch or even view women's naked bodies. Breast cancer survival rates were horrific too, and probably still are - this was only a few years ago. The idea was to move there with her husband, who was an anaesthiologist. Despite loving him dearly and trusting him implicitly she turned down the financially lucrative offer when she discovered that any time she wanted to leave the country she'd have to have a letter signed by him giving his permission. The risk was low but the stakes were far too high.
- justboxing 8y ago> when she discovered that any time she wanted to leave the country she'd have to have a letter signed by him giving his permission Does this clause apply to visitors / non-native citizens / non-muslims also? I thought it only applied to native saudi's from that Saud[1] dude's bloodline. Not trolling, really don't know. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud
- frereubu 8y agoThat's what she said to me - she may have misinterpreted. There were other aspects of life in Saudi Arabia that she didn't like, so it wasn't her only consideration, but given that she thought it was the case it was a clear deal-breaker.
- adetrest 8y agoI have heard a similar thing from friends who played the expat game for a few years. They lived in a compound where they could live as they wanted (within reason: no pork, no porn, etc), but the moment they stepped outside, the wives and daughters had to be chaperoned by a family male (father/husband or brother), or have written permission, wear a hijab, and be driven around by the male driver their company provided. They made a ton of money, but it seriously fucked up their kids who still resent them (the kids were teenagers at the time, that's possibly the worst time to live in such a messed up place)
- leesec 8y agoI wonder if any of the child immigrants currently locked up near the Mexican border would say the same thing now that they've tried to come to America.
- sytelus 8y agoI'd been to UAE and it is surprisingly lax country. In fact, if you ever want to experience culture of a country with Islam as state religion with all Western amenities, your safest bet might be UAE. They really really value their tourism and foreign investment business. Consequently they will look away most things that are outright violation of laws by foreigners. For example, their law bans sleeve less dress for women in public places but you will find Western women roaming around with it and even low shorts all over. Seeing them walking along side burka clad local women is quite a contrast. I even spotted bunch of Western women in bikini on their famous public beach while local women swimming in ocean with their burka on! No one seem to care. Few things they won't absolutely tolerate, however, is possession of drugs, public consumption of alcohol and anything against their royal family. In current case, it seems journalists are keeping most details under the wraps. Only thing I can get is that the guy was doing some kind of study on security changes that occurred after Arab spring. He should have known that the topic of rebellion would be big hot potato in any monarchy and the country-wide security study adds lot of fire on the top. The right way to do this would be take permission from the local government, inform them things you will be collecting and make sure embassy works with you on this. There is no information on whether this happened. Finally, why should any one visit such countries? World is not perfect but is wonderful. Human rights and individual freedom are relatively new things and just 300 years ago doing some study like this even in Western country would have same predicament. It is still important to experience and understand different cultures, points of views and communicate yours to others. That is the essence of travelling the world.
- auxbuss 8y agoI'd add Oman as a terrific Islamic country to visit. Men and women work alongside each other. Women walk and congregate after dark without male chaperones. It's all quite sane and immaculately kept. Jordan is relaxed too. Lots to see and do in both countries.
- CosmicShadow 8y agoYeah, I'd love to visit there, but it's just too risky. Just because people are getting away with doing stuff that is against the law doesn't mean they can't just turn at a moments notice and say "NOPE" and you are suddenly in a huge pile of shit for something minor. My "wife" of 12 years is common-law because we don't believe in marriage, I'm not going to risk our lives because they don't respect that. I'm not saying don't travel to Islamic countries, I'm saying don't travel somewhere you can get royally fucked for something minor.
- gaius 8y agoDoesn’t make sense really, the UK military does regular exercises with the UAE, anything they wanted to know about defence they could just go see
- S_A_P 8y agoArticle is light on details other than to say he was carrying out “legitimate academic research into security policy following the Arab spring”. Let’s say that someone from say China came to the US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different. Even if this was all totally above board it Seems a bit naive to think this isn’t something that you should get permission and clearance to do. I think the fact that it’s played out this way makes me think it was probably not strictly academic. I guess I will start DDGing more details.
- ap3 8y agoYou went totally the other way with the China angle though. For high profile spying you would get consular help and maybe a spy trade. No way you would be brought up on made up charges. You also have to consider the free press and the pressure they can apply in the US vs elsewhere. The UAE press (or KSA, China, etc) operates under much different constraints.
- Aspos 8y agoIf my memory serves me right the guy was caught a year or two ago and was under heavy investigation by UAE counter-intelligence team. And a life sentence is not something UAE courts would hand out lightly, especially in these circumstances. My best guess is that UAE have not got what it asked for to release the guy pre-trial, but will get something now and sheikh will pardon the guy next week.
- __________ttttt 8y agoYet no word about a Scot being tortured and electrocuted, held in jail for a year. https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2604512/jagtar-singh-johal-charged-funding-murder-of-rss-leaders/ https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2604512/jagtar-singh-j...
- justboxing 8y agoThis was in India. What does it have to do with the U.A.E story???
- __________ttttt 8y agoNo criticism for India. But there is for uae
- Kaveren 8y agoSurely even if he is a spy, the UK will eventually be able to negotiate his release? How many years could this take? UAE has a lot of revenue from tourism, I don't know how much of that is from the UK, but I assume that provides enough leverage to get something going. I just don't see a life sentence being a true life sentence for any citizen Westerner caught by a nation like the UAE.
- fyfy18 8y agoUAE and UK are pretty must best friends. Historically they have strong ties from the days of the British empire (Britain was allied with most of the Gulf countries to secure trade routes to India), and even now there are very strong political, economic and royal ties to the country. Most of the Western expats living there are from the UK, and there are a lot of UK financial companies with offices there. Going the other way, London is the place to go for Emiratis that want to escape the summer heat. I'm sure there is a lot more going on behind the scenes to provoke this reaction.
- devoply 8y agohttps://globalnews.ca/news/4684113/matthew-hedges-student-uae-prison-spying/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4684113/matthew-hedges-student-ua... > Hedges, a 31-year-old doctoral student at Durham University, has been held in the UAE since May 5, when he was arrested at Dubai International Airport after a two-week research visit. Surely you can't spy in any significant way on a country you entered 2 weeks ago. > The hearing lasted less than five minutes and his lawyer was not present, his family said.
- onetimemanytime 8y agoThese countries are great for vacations, to do business and to work...until they aren't. In reality, and backed by their laws, they are backward and savage fifth world countries. Stay the hell away, or at least calculate the risk of being framed for espionage for telling the truth about the royals or going to jail for consensual sex.
- stupidcar 8y agoIt’s absurd that a British citizen, or a citizen of any democratic county, is living and studying in a repressive, corrupt and violent regime like the United Arab Emirates. These countries and their kleptocratic Sheikhs throw wealth derived from oil and blood at western universities, and bribe their officials into setting up “campuses” in their states. Then they get upset when arriving students don’t conform to the apathetic conformity drilled into their own citizens. The Cold War is over. Yet somehow western democracies are still clinging on to alliances with barbarous regimes like Saudi Arabia and UAE. And now we see the fruits of it: Yemeni citivilians murdered during an unending war, a British citizen imprisoned for life for offending his hosts, and an agent of the Saudi royalty installed as president of the USA. What an utterly pathetic state of affairs.
- leesec 8y agoWhy are you acting like these western democracies aren't just as barbarous and cruel?
- stupidcar 8y agoBecause they aren’t “just” as barbarous and cruel. Violations of civil liberties occur in every country, but If you really believe that the rate and intensity of such is exactly the same in the UK as it is in Saudi Arabia or UAE, then you’re monumentally deluded.
- leesec 8y agoMaybe not to our own people. Did the UK/US not invade Iraq/Afghanistan, are we not still there? How many governments have we overthrown? How many people have we unjustly imprisoned/killed? It's not a 1 to 1 type comparison but in my mind it's hard to imagine the US wasn't the most cruel or barbarous civilization in the past 80 years or so. Noam Chomsky: “Remember the worst terrorist campaign in the world by far is the one that’s being orchestrated in Washington. That’s the global assassination campaign. There’s never been a terrorist campaign of that scale.”
- claudiawerner 8y ago
- pavlov 8y agoRule of thumb: don't enter any country where you need an exit visa to leave.
- ssijak 8y agoTrue story : I went on a vacation in Dubai and Abu Dabhi with my wife. 1-2 days priot I sold my iphone to some random guy and brought that cash with me. I imedietly exchanged 100 euros in Dubai after I landed to have some of their currency for small things. I also exchanged larger amount in a hotel before paying for it and moving to a different hotel to explore another part of the emirate. Anyhow, one day later my phone is ringing with some strange number calling. It was a manager from the first hotel saying that I used counterfited euro bills in their hotel. My heart sank reeeally hard in an instant. He said he is sure because only I exchanged euros before they went to the bank to store the money or whatever. The bank informed them that they are fake bills and by the law he said they need to say who used them. BUT, that was my lucky day and the manager said that they did not report me and will not if I repay them with real money. I imidately agreed and asked them for a way to pay with a CC because I was in another part of the emirate, they agreed and that was settled, I overpeyed a bit because he probably saved me. After that I ran to my room and took out all the bills I got from the iPhone sale and me and my wife needed almost an hour to figgure out that they are really fake, by looking over the internet and checking what is usually harder to fake. Tell tell sign was the 3d lines/bumps on parts of the bill. Everything else looked perfectly well!!! Now, I was confused why the money changer at the airport did not bust me right away so I went to a mall and exhanged another bill (which was real, not counterfited) and they just took it without checking. Few days later when leaving the country I was very scared on the boreder/aurport police check point but everything went well. Uff. I was so close to having a horror story myself... I immidiately reported to the police in my country what has happened. Before this I never ever had such experience and always naively trusted random people when I bought and sold things on the internet. Now I know better. Was so close to be really screwed by some random guy because of some small amount of money.
- arsalanb 8y agoSo you got scammed on the internet. How is that relevant or have anything to do with Dubai/Abu Dhabi?
- mikkelam 8y agoI used to live there, strange place. Only ever got rejected at clubs for wearing shorts, can you imagine wearing pants in a desert? fuck all that
- arsalanb 8y agoHow is this relevant to HN? Isn't "most political stuff" explicitly off topic? Also, most people calling out UAE to be a "dangerous" place and make misinformed should really learn more before making blanket statements. I have lived there for half of my life and also lived in the world "largest democracy" and also in the US. I feel safer in the UAE as an immigrant than I do in either of those places. For context, in India you have PSA, AFSPA, etc which are barbaric laws to which thousands of civilians have lost their lives. In the U.S, most of my Muslim friends (and myself included) feel constantly threatened by racism/xenophobia (this includes physical attacks). Edit: PSA or Public Safety Act is when the Indian Government can "legally" detain you in Kashmir (an area illegally occupied by India, disregarding UN resolutions to hold a referendum) under the pretext that you are a threat to public safety. Children as young as 14 years old have been booked under this act, and jailed. AFSPA (Armed Forced Special Powers Act) is when the Indian Armed forces can put a bullet in your head and face no judicial probe, which seems like a violation of international law to me. Bet Saudi Arabia feels real safe now.
- ap3 8y agoSorry but there are enough incidents coming out of UAE and the arab world (KSA), where it seems easy to run afoul of the law (alcohol, drugs, sex/rape, religion) and end up in big trouble You go after India but don’t reveal what country you hail from though. The US is so big though that it’s impractical to make such a blanket statement. There are mosques in every big city- no one seems to be opressed because of their religious views. You will never be judged for offending a deity or the government.
- arsalanb 8y agoI am from Indian occupied Kashmir. I guess I would say there are other cultures in the world centered around other belief systems (not always religious) that are impossible to grasp as an outsider. As somebody who has lived in both KSA and UAE for a long time, I can tell you that people from the UAE are the most generous, kind, and honestly classy people you will come across (something that is not accounted for when generalizing them as a barbaric people like many do in this post) I have never seen an Emirati as much as yell at somebody in the streets. Happiness of citizens is actively discussed and worked on, on a government level. Seeing the police makes me feel safe, not threatened. Maybe that’s why there are so many expatriates there. You should totally visit. It’s an amazing place.