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"While employees of companies are barred from buying or selling stocks based on information that has not yet been made public, lawyers told the Journal that the

"While employees of companies are barred from buying or selling stocks based on information that has not yet been made public, lawyers told the Journal that they were unaware of any such ban affecting real estate transactions." This is exactly what I was wondering, I know there are rules against insider trading, but I wasn't sure if there were rules against people buying property based on a potential location for a new HQ.

paulsutter 8y ago
Amazon’s employment NDA surely prohibits employees from using company confidential information outside work, for example as a side business doing real estate investing
- xsmasher 8y ago
  You are expected to USE confidential info. I don't think this counts as DISCLOSING confidential info.
  - refurb 8y ago
    My company requires employees to sign a document that they won’t use confidential company info for personal gain.
    - dsamarin 8y ago
      If we go down that rabbit hole, are you allowed to perform well in your job using confidential information in order to gain a promotion?
      - refurb 8y ago
        The actual language specifies personal gain outside of work. That said, I don’t think they have any mechanism to enforce it.
    - majormajor 8y ago
      "We're going to ask you to move to New York, but don't use that to personally gain housing"?
      - starshadowx2 8y ago
        The question is whether they bought that housing for themselves because they're being moved or if they bought it to resell at a profit because they had internal knowledge of this neighbourhood being used for HQ2.
  - paulsutter 8y ago
    Personal use is disallowed. From Amazon employee NDA[1], section 3.1: "Employee will hold all Confidential Information in strictest confidence and will not acquire, USE, publish, disclose, or communicate any Confidential Information except as required in connection with Employee’s work" Capitalization of USE mine otherwise verbatim. [1] https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3543196/AmazonContract.0.pdf https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3543196/A...
    - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
      If you know you're going to be going to NYC, how is this not "in connection with Employee's work"?
      - refurb 8y ago
        If the location of HQ2 hasn’t even been announced internally at Amazon, I don’t think any employee would know for sure they are relocating there.
        xemdetia 8y ago
        Even if you were on the team who decided that on NYC and were charged to make it happen? I don't find it unreasonable to think that some key members of the team were set to relocate in and around the time the announcement came to pass. There is not enough information here to say if this is for speculation in real estate or personal use. Heck at the rate of turnover and the job market they just could be a few employees leaving Amazon for a new position in NYC.
        refurb 8y ago
        Maybe, but at the same time I would assume Amazon offers relief assistance? I needed my companies sign off before I could even start looking for a house.
gnopgnip 8y ago
The crime of "insider trading" is a type of securities fraud. A plain reading of the law would not seem to apply to purchasing a home. But historically securities fraud has been used to prosecute a wide array of behavior
- otterley 8y ago
  Do you have any examples of such cases? I'd love to read the law on this.
  - karmelapple 8y ago
    There was a great article from yesterday on securities fraud: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18498796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18498796
    - otterley 8y ago
      I was looking for specific case law that could be used to argue that the behavior in question is unlawful, as the GP implied but did not support with facts or law. The article you cite does not provide references to such law either; in fact, it neither has the word "fraud" nor "insider" in it. This article was about bribery, particularly of foreign officials; and the prosecutions attempted by the SEC led to consent decrees, not new securities laws. (The FCPA, however, eventually did get passed by Congress to outlaw the practice; but that is not a securities law.) In fact, the article itself states: > Proxmire believed that although the SEC had done all it could under the disclosure program, what was really needed was a law specifically prohibiting foreign bribery. The existing laws were not sufficient, as they addressed only the means through which a bribe might be paid, but not the act of paying a bribe itself. So it's unfortunately not very helpful.
  - gnopgnip 8y ago
    Matt Levine has some entertaining articles on insider trading allegations
- munk-a 8y ago
ackidacki 8y ago
There aren't. Matt Levine had an article about it recently, oddly enough on HQ2
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gowld 8y ago
In the early days of the USA, "land speculation was scandal bordering on crime and sometimes considered treason (since the USA borders were expanding, so getting involved in not-yet-USA land was competiting with government plans).

paulsutter 8y ago

Amazon’s employment NDA surely prohibits employees from using company confidential information outside work, for example as a side business doing real estate investing

xsmasher 8y ago
You are expected to USE confidential info. I don't think this counts as DISCLOSING confidential info.
- refurb 8y ago
  My company requires employees to sign a document that they won’t use confidential company info for personal gain.
  - dsamarin 8y ago
    If we go down that rabbit hole, are you allowed to perform well in your job using confidential information in order to gain a promotion?
    - refurb 8y ago
      The actual language specifies personal gain outside of work. That said, I don’t think they have any mechanism to enforce it.
  - majormajor 8y ago
    "We're going to ask you to move to New York, but don't use that to personally gain housing"?
    - starshadowx2 8y ago
      The question is whether they bought that housing for themselves because they're being moved or if they bought it to resell at a profit because they had internal knowledge of this neighbourhood being used for HQ2.
- paulsutter 8y ago
  Personal use is disallowed. From Amazon employee NDA[1], section 3.1: "Employee will hold all Confidential Information in strictest confidence and will not acquire, USE, publish, disclose, or communicate any Confidential Information except as required in connection with Employee’s work" Capitalization of USE mine otherwise verbatim. [1] https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3543196/AmazonContract.0.pdf https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3543196/A...
  - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    If you know you're going to be going to NYC, how is this not "in connection with Employee's work"?
    - refurb 8y ago
      If the location of HQ2 hasn’t even been announced internally at Amazon, I don’t think any employee would know for sure they are relocating there.
      - xemdetia 8y ago
        Even if you were on the team who decided that on NYC and were charged to make it happen? I don't find it unreasonable to think that some key members of the team were set to relocate in and around the time the announcement came to pass. There is not enough information here to say if this is for speculation in real estate or personal use. Heck at the rate of turnover and the job market they just could be a few employees leaving Amazon for a new position in NYC.
        refurb 8y ago
        Maybe, but at the same time I would assume Amazon offers relief assistance? I needed my companies sign off before I could even start looking for a house.

gnopgnip 8y ago

The crime of "insider trading" is a type of securities fraud. A plain reading of the law would not seem to apply to purchasing a home. But historically securities fraud has been used to prosecute a wide array of behavior

otterley 8y ago
Do you have any examples of such cases? I'd love to read the law on this.
- karmelapple 8y ago
  There was a great article from yesterday on securities fraud: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18498796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18498796
  - otterley 8y ago
    I was looking for specific case law that could be used to argue that the behavior in question is unlawful, as the GP implied but did not support with facts or law. The article you cite does not provide references to such law either; in fact, it neither has the word "fraud" nor "insider" in it. This article was about bribery, particularly of foreign officials; and the prosecutions attempted by the SEC led to consent decrees, not new securities laws. (The FCPA, however, eventually did get passed by Congress to outlaw the practice; but that is not a securities law.) In fact, the article itself states: > Proxmire believed that although the SEC had done all it could under the disclosure program, what was really needed was a law specifically prohibiting foreign bribery. The existing laws were not sufficient, as they addressed only the means through which a bribe might be paid, but not the act of paying a bribe itself. So it's unfortunately not very helpful.
- gnopgnip 8y ago
  Matt Levine has some entertaining articles on insider trading allegations
munk-a 8y ago

ackidacki 8y ago

There aren't. Matt Levine had an article about it recently, oddly enough on HQ2

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

gowld 8y ago

In the early days of the USA, "land speculation was scandal bordering on crime and sometimes considered treason (since the USA borders were expanding, so getting involved in not-yet-USA land was competiting with government plans).