4 ms·

Sounds like lifters. Would it produce a lot of ozone pollution?

by ohiovr 8y ago

detritus 8y ago
That's exactly what I was just wondering and trying to read up on (I'm incredibly ignorant about this sort of thing)... https://www.quora.com/How-is-air-ionized-and-what-does-that-mean https://www.quora.com/How-is-air-ionized-and-what-does-that-... "Air ionisation can cause the following: forming of ozone molecules Ozone is produced naturally in the stratosphere when highly energetic solar radiation strikes molecules of oxygen (O2), and cause the two oxygen atoms to split apart in a process called photolysis. If a freed atom collides with another O2, it joins up, forming ozone(O3). Most of the ozone in the stratosphere is formed over the equatorial belt, where the level of solar radiation is greatest. The circulation in the atmosphere then transports it towards the pole . So, the amount of stratospheric ozone above a location on the Earth varies naturally with latitude, season, and from day-to-day."
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- naringas 8y ago
  so with a lot of these flying about we can use ozone-depleting substances (ODS and CFCs) once again?
  - detritus 8y ago
    At the very least, it seems like there might be some prospect of combining the battery and voltage upticking tech here with the likes of the solar-powered Zephyr [1] which can fly at about 20km, which is apparently about the denser part of the ozone layer [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinetiq_Zephyr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinetiq_Zephyr [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_layer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_layer , in particular: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Ozone_altitude_UV_graph.svg/300px-Ozone_altitude_UV_graph.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Oz... - ed I suppose it would make more sense to pair the battery and voltage conversion tech with a high altitude balloon covered in thin film PV, so there's less competition between 'ozone generation' and the 'lift generation'.
  - btilly 8y ago
    No. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_ozone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_ozone you see that ozone in the lower atmosphere is a pollutant. We want lots of ozone up in the stratosphere. Blocking UV, well away from us.
    - LeifCarrotson 8y ago
      Can we send a bunch of these ion-powered planes to fly on solar power in the stratosphere, more efficiently and rapidly generating ozone than the natural process?
      - detritus 8y ago
        That's exactly what I wrote in a response to the parent an hour or so ago! :(
      - marcosdumay 8y ago
        You won't be able to get to the stratosphere with low efficiency propellers. And you would need an absurd number of them to make any difference.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        gpm 8y ago
        As someone else suggested before this comment was posted, use a balloon for lift? Maybe combine the whole thing with project loon like internet relays. With a source of thrust like this it would be much easier to keep them where you want them.
mabbo 8y ago
Ah, darn. I was wondering if this might be a new way to have better indoor air circulation with no moving parts. But filling my home with ozone doesn't sound like a good idea.
- ohiovr 8y ago
  maybe you could use uv light to neutralize the ozone. Ah on second thought https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/2018/11/16/chinese-schoolchildren-burned-by-uv-lamp-left-classroom-again/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/...
  - kardos 8y ago
    non-amp link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/11/16/chinese-schoolchildren-burned-by-uv-lamp-left-classroom-again https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/11/16/chinese-scho...
- Groxx 8y ago
  There were a whole bunch of them maybe 10 years ago. Usually advertised as "ionic air purifiers" or something similar. I found quite a few links / articles from "fanless air purifiers": https://www.google.com/search?q=fanless+air+purifier https://www.google.com/search?q=fanless+air+purifier The market dried up because they were borderline bullshit, and produced ozone, sometimes far in excess of their claims. They did make air move quietly tho.
- edoo 8y ago
  Worse yet ion propulsion uses positive ions. Negative ions clean the air and have beneficial effects to humans and plants. Positive ions do the opposite.
soperj 8y ago
From the article: the front row conducts some 40,000 volts of electricity—166 times the voltage delivered to the average house, and enough energy to strip the electrons off ample nitrogen atoms hanging in the atmosphere. So doesn't seem like it.
sametmax 8y ago
Pollution is contextual. If they are required to fly very high, wouldn't it add ozone to the earth uv shield ?
- narwally 8y ago
  You don't want any holes in the ozone layer because it absorbs UV light, but you also don't want a thick ozone layer anywhere because of its greenhouse properties. It's a balancing act, and mass commercial adoption of this technology would likely mess with that.
gpm 8y ago
Incidentally this made me wonder if producing more ozone could be used to counter global warming. Unfortunately it looks like the opposite, Ozone is (counter intuitively to me) a greenhouse gas just like the rest of them that warms the earth. https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/climateqa/are-the-ozone-hole-and-global-warming-related/ https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/climateqa/are-the-oz...
perlgeek 8y ago
Also potentially nitrogen oxide?

Sounds like lifters. Would it produce a lot of ozone pollution?

by ohiovr 8y ago

Sounds like lifters. Would it produce a lot of ozone pollution?

That's exactly what I was just wondering and trying to read up on (I'm incredibly ignorant about this sort of thing)... https://www.quora.com/How-is-air-ionized-and-what-does-that-mean https://www.quora.com/How-is-air-ionized-and-what-does-that-... "Air ionisation can cause the following: forming of ozone molecules Ozone is produced naturally in the stratosphere when highly energetic solar radiation strikes molecules of oxygen (O2), and cause the two oxygen atoms to split apart in a process called photolysis. If a freed atom collides with another O2, it joins up, forming ozone(O3). Most of the ozone in the stratosphere is formed over the equatorial belt, where the level of solar radiation is greatest. The circulation in the atmosphere then transports it towards the pole . So, the amount of stratospheric ozone above a location on the Earth varies naturally with latitude, season, and from day-to-day."

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
naringas 8y ago
so with a lot of these flying about we can use ozone-depleting substances (ODS and CFCs) once again?
- detritus 8y ago
  At the very least, it seems like there might be some prospect of combining the battery and voltage upticking tech here with the likes of the solar-powered Zephyr [1] which can fly at about 20km, which is apparently about the denser part of the ozone layer [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinetiq_Zephyr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinetiq_Zephyr [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_layer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_layer , in particular: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Ozone_altitude_UV_graph.svg/300px-Ozone_altitude_UV_graph.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Oz... - ed I suppose it would make more sense to pair the battery and voltage conversion tech with a high altitude balloon covered in thin film PV, so there's less competition between 'ozone generation' and the 'lift generation'.
- btilly 8y ago
  No. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_ozone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_ozone you see that ozone in the lower atmosphere is a pollutant. We want lots of ozone up in the stratosphere. Blocking UV, well away from us.
  - LeifCarrotson 8y ago
    Can we send a bunch of these ion-powered planes to fly on solar power in the stratosphere, more efficiently and rapidly generating ozone than the natural process?
    - detritus 8y ago
      That's exactly what I wrote in a response to the parent an hour or so ago! :(
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      You won't be able to get to the stratosphere with low efficiency propellers. And you would need an absurd number of them to make any difference.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - gpm 8y ago
        As someone else suggested before this comment was posted, use a balloon for lift? Maybe combine the whole thing with project loon like internet relays. With a source of thrust like this it would be much easier to keep them where you want them.

mabbo 8y ago

Ah, darn. I was wondering if this might be a new way to have better indoor air circulation with no moving parts. But filling my home with ozone doesn't sound like a good idea.

ohiovr 8y ago
maybe you could use uv light to neutralize the ozone. Ah on second thought https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/2018/11/16/chinese-schoolchildren-burned-by-uv-lamp-left-classroom-again/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/...
- kardos 8y ago
  non-amp link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/11/16/chinese-schoolchildren-burned-by-uv-lamp-left-classroom-again https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/11/16/chinese-scho...
Groxx 8y ago
There were a whole bunch of them maybe 10 years ago. Usually advertised as "ionic air purifiers" or something similar. I found quite a few links / articles from "fanless air purifiers": https://www.google.com/search?q=fanless+air+purifier https://www.google.com/search?q=fanless+air+purifier The market dried up because they were borderline bullshit, and produced ozone, sometimes far in excess of their claims. They did make air move quietly tho.
edoo 8y ago
Worse yet ion propulsion uses positive ions. Negative ions clean the air and have beneficial effects to humans and plants. Positive ions do the opposite.

soperj 8y ago

From the article: the front row conducts some 40,000 volts of electricity—166 times the voltage delivered to the average house, and enough energy to strip the electrons off ample nitrogen atoms hanging in the atmosphere. So doesn't seem like it.

sametmax 8y ago

Pollution is contextual. If they are required to fly very high, wouldn't it add ozone to the earth uv shield ?

narwally 8y ago
You don't want any holes in the ozone layer because it absorbs UV light, but you also don't want a thick ozone layer anywhere because of its greenhouse properties. It's a balancing act, and mass commercial adoption of this technology would likely mess with that.

gpm 8y ago

Incidentally this made me wonder if producing more ozone could be used to counter global warming. Unfortunately it looks like the opposite, Ozone is (counter intuitively to me) a greenhouse gas just like the rest of them that warms the earth. https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/climateqa/are-the-ozone-hole-and-global-warming-related/ https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/climateqa/are-the-oz...

perlgeek 8y ago

Also potentially nitrogen oxide?