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You do nothing of the sort. You're buying a specific combination of hardware and software that may or may not get upgrades and security fixes over time, just li

You do nothing of the sort. You're buying a specific combination of hardware and software that may or may not get upgrades and security fixes over time, just like any Android phone. Apple just has a much better track record at doing that than any Android vendor. On the other hand when I buy a laptop or an access point I just do minimal checking of supported hardware in case there's something that's very exotic and then I get to install whatever software I want for however long I want to keep the hardware in service. For the HN crowd this should be worrying. Mobile is the #1 hardware platform by unit volume and there's no way we can actually target these devices sensibly.

pdimitar 8y ago
> You do nothing of the sort. You're buying a specific combination of hardware and software that may or may not get upgrades and security fixes over time Bringing in strictly theoretical supposition which is directly at odds with what's historically been a very solid track record from Apple isn't doing your argument any favours. Unless I misunderstood you.
- kibibu 8y ago
  My ancient iPhone 4 did everything that I needed it to, but I had to abandon it because Apple did too.
  - pdimitar 8y ago
    I challenge you to name me one Android device that is officially supported for 4 or more years. ;) iPhone 4 is 8 years old so not sure I see your point.
    - josteink 8y ago
      > I challenge you to name me one Android device that is officially supported for 4 or more years This thread started with a comment about mobile phones in general being locked down to a specific kernel/os/software-combo, and that the upgrade paths is at the mercy of the vendor (unlike PCs). Both Apple and Android phones are locked down. Who does it in the most convenient way is irellevant to the argument made.
    - as1mov 8y ago
      Why does any criticism of Apple devices generally devolves into "but Android does it too", I expected better than fanboy-ism from the HN crowd. The OP's comment was that any mobile devices these days, both Android and iOS are locked down black boxes. It wasn't specifically criticizing just Apple.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
        > I expected better than fanboy-ism from the HN crowd. Are you new here?
      - pdimitar 8y ago
        If you followed the dicussion you would see the big "both ecosystems are locked down and you are at the mercy of vendors" thread that goes on around here. But it's easier to flag people as fanboys. <shrugs> Since you are having trouble with getting what I said: I am saying that Apple in my eyes is the lesser evil of only two options. It's a very practical and time-saving decision to use Apple tech. But call it fanboyism if you like.
    - CrazedGeek 8y ago
      The Nvidia Shield TV is pretty close. It came out May 2015 and is still being supported (most recent update came out in September).
      - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
        I love my Shield TV, great bit of kit.
    - kibibu 8y ago
      Microsoft was still publishing security updates for Windows CE 5.0 in 2014, ten years after release. Windows CE 6.0 was supported for twelve years.
- pedrocr 8y ago
  The point isn't that Apple isn't good at doing updates. The very next sentence points out explicitly that they do that above and beyond everyone else in the space. The point is that you're locked in to a specific HW+SW ecosystem at the mercy of the vendor. If you like that ecosystem that may be great service to you, I'm pointing out that the #1 computing platform has only that choice and that's not the case in all the other major platforms so far. For the HN crowd that should be worrying.
  - solarkraft 8y ago
    You're not wrong. I find it worrying too. But it's also the case with most [many] Android devices.
    - pedrocr 8y ago
      Oh, definitely! It's even worse because you don't even get a properly secured device, it's a horrible ecosystem right now. But because it actually runs an open-source kernel and the bootloaders can be unlocked in most cases there's a chance to fix it still. With Apple hardware, unlike in their laptops, you have no choice but to run their software.
      - bubblethink 8y ago
        >With Apple hardware, unlike in their laptops, you have no choice but to run their software. Apple laptops are also in a pretty bad shape. Eventually, they may be usable as laptops for other (free) OSes with sufficient reverse engineering, but currently they can't. That they can be used at all is quite accidental due to things outside of Apple's control and other historical factors.
  - pdimitar 8y ago
    The HN crowd, me included, are real humans with real needs and smartphone apps and convenience brings a real value to my life. For one, transparent syncing of photos, notes, basic spreadsheets and many others is a huge selling point of iCloud. It's not about if I can buy a cheap FreeNAS rig -- an i5 CPU and 10-year old motherboard with 16-32GB of DDR2/DDR3 RAM -- and gradually add WD Gold hard drives to it. It's not about if I can use Syncthing and a command-line password manager. It's not about if I can use PostmarketOS or LineageOS and thus only buy Android-enabled devices (yay Linux freedom?). I can do all that. But it requires more manual management. And I just don't have the time and energy for it. It's strange to me to imply that the HN crowd are some sort of world-changers that never have financial struggles and live in beach houses a la Iron Man style with 3x independent gigabit fiber links and 500 sq.m. of home labs that rival Mythbusters' space -- and are constantly busy disrupting an area. Truth is, even though in principle you are correct -- and even though I really would like to only use free [as in freedom and not a free beer] hardware and software -- the reality is that we all have jobs to do. And most of us actually love the people we live with and would want to spend a chunk of our free time with them. We all would love to get a normal amount of sleep and invest in the knowledge necessary to get proper nutrition because we're literally a hugely complex chemical compound and we better put the right chemicals inside of us... ...etc. etc to infinity., I can go on all day and night but I am pretty certain you got the point. The HN crowd is certainly much more aware than many other crowds. Doesn't automatically imply they have the means to change a lot of things. Trust me, I'd like to live like Tony Stark and invent a ton of stuff that can change the world -- that includes his house and a lab -- but I am gradually coming to terms with the fact that I'll very likely stop at having 7-10 profitable consultancies and/or lifestyle businesses that will give me a peace of mind even after retirement. Life is short and many of us don't want to work 24/7. More power to the people who can maintain a good living AND be inventors and disrupters. I have big respect for them.
- kbenson 8y ago
  It's not strictly theoretical. The original comment clearly was calling out the Android and mobile ecosystem in comparison to other hardware devices. If I dig out my iPhone 3g, I'm not getting anything close to the latest iOS on it no matter what I try. I can pull out a laptop from the same time period and install quite a few of the top linux distros on it. Any Apple device is a specific combination of hardware and software that Apple chooses when to stop supporting, and you have very little recourse. Apple has generally been better at providing support to older devices than Android (on average), but in the end the situation is fundamentally the same.
  - pdimitar 8y ago
    I've read my parent comment as a claim that we are all doomed because Apple might pull the plug one day -- which I dispute on the grounds that historically this hasn't been true. Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Outside of that I am in full agreement with you. The mobile ecosystem is basically a dystopia where we have zero recourse as you said.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
      > Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Released 2008. If I get an x86 laptop from 2008, I can install a modern Ubuntu on it with approximately 0 effort. If anything, it'll usually be better than cutting-edge hardware because the drivers have already been developed and released in a stable Linux version. iOS still loses this comparison.
      - snazz 8y ago
        This. I managed to build recent Linux on a Pentium MMX Mobile (IIRC) laptop from 1998. A cell phone from 5 years ago can't handle a modern operating system, but a 1998 laptop can run Xorg just fine.
        metildaa 8y ago
        The funny thing is the SoC in these smartphones can totally run Linux & Darwin, but the driver support for the peripherals is shovelware. Vendors do the bare minimum to suppprt the hardware, and you get a mess. Its frankly shocking that the Allwinner A10/A20/A64 (which can run Win10!) /H3/H5/H6 has nearly complete mainline kernel support, whereas nearly any of the smartphones made since 2008 can't boot mainline Linux and drive their cameras, screen, GPS, etc. Its a huge failing of the industry.
Iv 8y ago
I am old enough to remember when buying a new laptop you would actually need to check if the wifi chip, the ACPI vs of the Mobo, the internal ethernet controller, the video card, hell even the sound card, had a linux-supported driver. It was not always the case and for various reasons (mostly the much heavier integration constraints of different components) it is harder to make on a phone. It may sound strange, but I think that redemption will come from efforts similar to the PiPhone [1] that allow to create devices from different manufacturers that were not specifically designed to work in a tightly integrated way. [1] https://learn.adafruit.com/piphone-a-raspberry-pi-based-cellphone/overview https://learn.adafruit.com/piphone-a-raspberry-pi-based-cell...

pdimitar 8y ago

> You do nothing of the sort. You're buying a specific combination of hardware and software that may or may not get upgrades and security fixes over time Bringing in strictly theoretical supposition which is directly at odds with what's historically been a very solid track record from Apple isn't doing your argument any favours. Unless I misunderstood you.

kibibu 8y ago
My ancient iPhone 4 did everything that I needed it to, but I had to abandon it because Apple did too.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  I challenge you to name me one Android device that is officially supported for 4 or more years. ;) iPhone 4 is 8 years old so not sure I see your point.
  - josteink 8y ago
    > I challenge you to name me one Android device that is officially supported for 4 or more years This thread started with a comment about mobile phones in general being locked down to a specific kernel/os/software-combo, and that the upgrade paths is at the mercy of the vendor (unlike PCs). Both Apple and Android phones are locked down. Who does it in the most convenient way is irellevant to the argument made.
  - as1mov 8y ago
    Why does any criticism of Apple devices generally devolves into "but Android does it too", I expected better than fanboy-ism from the HN crowd. The OP's comment was that any mobile devices these days, both Android and iOS are locked down black boxes. It wasn't specifically criticizing just Apple.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      > I expected better than fanboy-ism from the HN crowd. Are you new here?
    - pdimitar 8y ago
      If you followed the dicussion you would see the big "both ecosystems are locked down and you are at the mercy of vendors" thread that goes on around here. But it's easier to flag people as fanboys. <shrugs> Since you are having trouble with getting what I said: I am saying that Apple in my eyes is the lesser evil of only two options. It's a very practical and time-saving decision to use Apple tech. But call it fanboyism if you like.
  - CrazedGeek 8y ago
    The Nvidia Shield TV is pretty close. It came out May 2015 and is still being supported (most recent update came out in September).
    - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      I love my Shield TV, great bit of kit.
  - kibibu 8y ago
    Microsoft was still publishing security updates for Windows CE 5.0 in 2014, ten years after release. Windows CE 6.0 was supported for twelve years.
pedrocr 8y ago
The point isn't that Apple isn't good at doing updates. The very next sentence points out explicitly that they do that above and beyond everyone else in the space. The point is that you're locked in to a specific HW+SW ecosystem at the mercy of the vendor. If you like that ecosystem that may be great service to you, I'm pointing out that the #1 computing platform has only that choice and that's not the case in all the other major platforms so far. For the HN crowd that should be worrying.
- solarkraft 8y ago
  You're not wrong. I find it worrying too. But it's also the case with most [many] Android devices.
  - pedrocr 8y ago
    Oh, definitely! It's even worse because you don't even get a properly secured device, it's a horrible ecosystem right now. But because it actually runs an open-source kernel and the bootloaders can be unlocked in most cases there's a chance to fix it still. With Apple hardware, unlike in their laptops, you have no choice but to run their software.
    - bubblethink 8y ago
      >With Apple hardware, unlike in their laptops, you have no choice but to run their software. Apple laptops are also in a pretty bad shape. Eventually, they may be usable as laptops for other (free) OSes with sufficient reverse engineering, but currently they can't. That they can be used at all is quite accidental due to things outside of Apple's control and other historical factors.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  The HN crowd, me included, are real humans with real needs and smartphone apps and convenience brings a real value to my life. For one, transparent syncing of photos, notes, basic spreadsheets and many others is a huge selling point of iCloud. It's not about if I can buy a cheap FreeNAS rig -- an i5 CPU and 10-year old motherboard with 16-32GB of DDR2/DDR3 RAM -- and gradually add WD Gold hard drives to it. It's not about if I can use Syncthing and a command-line password manager. It's not about if I can use PostmarketOS or LineageOS and thus only buy Android-enabled devices (yay Linux freedom?). I can do all that. But it requires more manual management. And I just don't have the time and energy for it. It's strange to me to imply that the HN crowd are some sort of world-changers that never have financial struggles and live in beach houses a la Iron Man style with 3x independent gigabit fiber links and 500 sq.m. of home labs that rival Mythbusters' space -- and are constantly busy disrupting an area. Truth is, even though in principle you are correct -- and even though I really would like to only use free [as in freedom and not a free beer] hardware and software -- the reality is that we all have jobs to do. And most of us actually love the people we live with and would want to spend a chunk of our free time with them. We all would love to get a normal amount of sleep and invest in the knowledge necessary to get proper nutrition because we're literally a hugely complex chemical compound and we better put the right chemicals inside of us... ...etc. etc to infinity., I can go on all day and night but I am pretty certain you got the point. The HN crowd is certainly much more aware than many other crowds. Doesn't automatically imply they have the means to change a lot of things. Trust me, I'd like to live like Tony Stark and invent a ton of stuff that can change the world -- that includes his house and a lab -- but I am gradually coming to terms with the fact that I'll very likely stop at having 7-10 profitable consultancies and/or lifestyle businesses that will give me a peace of mind even after retirement. Life is short and many of us don't want to work 24/7. More power to the people who can maintain a good living AND be inventors and disrupters. I have big respect for them.
kbenson 8y ago
It's not strictly theoretical. The original comment clearly was calling out the Android and mobile ecosystem in comparison to other hardware devices. If I dig out my iPhone 3g, I'm not getting anything close to the latest iOS on it no matter what I try. I can pull out a laptop from the same time period and install quite a few of the top linux distros on it. Any Apple device is a specific combination of hardware and software that Apple chooses when to stop supporting, and you have very little recourse. Apple has generally been better at providing support to older devices than Android (on average), but in the end the situation is fundamentally the same.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  I've read my parent comment as a claim that we are all doomed because Apple might pull the plug one day -- which I dispute on the grounds that historically this hasn't been true. Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Outside of that I am in full agreement with you. The mobile ecosystem is basically a dystopia where we have zero recourse as you said.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
    > Also, iPhone 3g is ancient. Released 2008. If I get an x86 laptop from 2008, I can install a modern Ubuntu on it with approximately 0 effort. If anything, it'll usually be better than cutting-edge hardware because the drivers have already been developed and released in a stable Linux version. iOS still loses this comparison.
    - snazz 8y ago
      This. I managed to build recent Linux on a Pentium MMX Mobile (IIRC) laptop from 1998. A cell phone from 5 years ago can't handle a modern operating system, but a 1998 laptop can run Xorg just fine.
      - metildaa 8y ago
        The funny thing is the SoC in these smartphones can totally run Linux & Darwin, but the driver support for the peripherals is shovelware. Vendors do the bare minimum to suppprt the hardware, and you get a mess. Its frankly shocking that the Allwinner A10/A20/A64 (which can run Win10!) /H3/H5/H6 has nearly complete mainline kernel support, whereas nearly any of the smartphones made since 2008 can't boot mainline Linux and drive their cameras, screen, GPS, etc. Its a huge failing of the industry.

Iv 8y ago

I am old enough to remember when buying a new laptop you would actually need to check if the wifi chip, the ACPI vs of the Mobo, the internal ethernet controller, the video card, hell even the sound card, had a linux-supported driver. It was not always the case and for various reasons (mostly the much heavier integration constraints of different components) it is harder to make on a phone. It may sound strange, but I think that redemption will come from efforts similar to the PiPhone [1] that allow to create devices from different manufacturers that were not specifically designed to work in a tightly integrated way. [1] https://learn.adafruit.com/piphone-a-raspberry-pi-based-cellphone/overview https://learn.adafruit.com/piphone-a-raspberry-pi-based-cell...