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Bluntly? You're letting anger and resentment cloud your judgment. Your colleague is clearly not incompetent. He just has different goals from you. He probably w

by beat 8y ago

Bluntly? You're letting anger and resentment cloud your judgment. Your colleague is clearly not incompetent. He just has different goals from you. He probably wanted to shift from a technical role to a managerial role, and he succeeded. That's not incompetent! And that's probably because he recognized his talents are better with people than with technology. So be happy for his success, rather than resentful of his perceived incompetence. It seems to me like people skills are a weak spot for you. That's not unusual in our industry. But leading and managing people, sorting out the relationships to make large project work, that work is just as essential as technical skills are. Nothing big ever got built by a bunch of grumpy, resentful introverts. Rather than hating his "incompetence", try to recognize him (and others like him) as valuable allies. Find ways to work together, to let them deal with the frustrations of relationships, and let you focus on the technology. Create a mutually beneficial partnership. If you can't learn to do that, to trust the "people persons", you're going to find yourself in this situation over and over again.

JacKTrocinskI 8y ago
How can you work together or respect someone that takes credit for you work? This guy is a snake, it's not about being introverted.
- beat 8y ago
  Are you sure we're getting a complete story here? The OP is what writers call an "unreliable narrator". We're seeing this through his very emotional lens. It's quite possible the other person did a lot of the "people" work that enabled the code to be written and distributed. In that case, it's a "we", not an "I", and focusing entirely on "I wrote the code", ignoring how it fit into the organization, is dismissing someone else's well-deserved credit.
  - unethical_ban 8y ago
    If the OP is an unreliable narrator, then you shouldn't assume the guy isn't a snake, either. I have seen the case you're wary of: a technical, but poorly communicating, employee that resents the success of a well-meaning, less technical but better communicating coworker. I have seen good people like that, and I have seen snakes that pull the "we/I" as in the OP's story.
    - beat 8y ago
      Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Generally, I don't see a lot of these "snakes" out in the real world, but I see a tremendous amount of misunderstandings, resentment, and righteous indignation. As I told the OP elsewhere, we're all the hero of our own stories, and everyone we disagree with is a villain. But ask the villain, and they think they're the hero. It's human nature. We don't want to admit that we might be wrong, that the people we disagree with might be right (or at least, the disagreement is not founded in malice). So when I see situations like this, I rarely see snakes. I see misunderstandings that can be addressed with better communication and a good dose of humility.
      - jonbronson 8y ago
        Stupidity and malice can often be two sides of the same coin. I once worked with an individual who shot down a project idea, but then executed it in secret for two weeks before revealing it as his pet project. After confronting him, he initially did not understand why this was deceitful. It took 3-4 conversations before he finally understood and sincerely apologized. He felt he was simply being competitive and that everyone did these types of things.
        ownagefool 8y ago
        My work buddy did this. I'm pretty sure this was simply because he thought it couldn't be done, and I just put the niggling thought in his mind so he tried and was successful. Weirdly enough he was the introvert and I less so, and I got the promotion. No hard feelings on either end, as far as I know. We all have our quirks.
      - existencebox 8y ago
        Not OP or in this chain, but I'm surprised you say this (Rarely see snakes.) I have nothing to complain about. I've done very well career wise, and have no reason to beef with any of these people. But at the same time, I've concretely seen individuals lie outright, blackmail, threaten, insult, and bully their way to success. That you say you rarely see this makes me raise an eyebrow. I've gone through the "maybe I'm just seeing evil where there isn't any" thought process many times, but after watching multiple instances of negative actors take advantage of others while I was a disinterested third party, I can't but have conviction. People will abuse others when it serves them and they think they can get away with it, and in situations where power dynamics, visibility and relationships (so soft, highly non-fungible elements) drive your career, someone in power can get away with a LOT, even via only subtlety misaligning incentives. Let me be clear, this is not some dominating majority of the population, and one should not start seeing enemies around every corner, but I've seen enough that instructing a junior engineer to watch out for those who would seek to take advantage of them seems very pragmatic to my eyes.
- sailfast 8y ago
  To be fair, the OP said whenever the work was cooperative the person said "We", not "I", which I think is an improvement on snake. I'm not saying it's great, but it also sounds like the OP needs to be more proactive about speaking roles in meetings when it comes to value of their practices, why things were done, etc. Now, would I work for a person if I hated them? Nope. Would probably be out of there. In terms of "How can you!?", this stuff happens all the time all over the place and people work together. I think you can work through it with colleagues - it's not easy, but it's important if you think the mission / company are worthwhile. Otherwise, you're just going to dig deeper "into the box" on the credit thing and it won't be a good reflection on your work.
zldkz5 8y ago
> It seems to me like people skills are a weak spot for you. That's not true as I always hangout with the people in different teams, and, we get along pretty well. I just don't do kiss-ass to my boss and I don't take advantage out of situations. > Find ways to work together We worked together for two years on daily basis. And I overcome a lot of bad behaviours but I can't stand to report to him
- Tactic 8y ago
  If you don't want to quit the team/job, then I would recommend trying to adopt the viewpoint that regardless of your manager's shortcomings (we all have them) at least they understand your value as a technical resource. However, if this: > I can't stand to report to him remains true... the only solution in the end that will leave you with day-to-day satisfaction is to leave the situation. It sounds like you are aware of this. Life is not always fair but in general it is consistent.
- beat 8y ago
  If you can't stand to report to him, then you find another job, or at least find another department within your company so you're not under him. And it probably wouldn't hurt to talk about this conflict with other managers you do trust at the company (if you don't trust any of them, the problem almost certainly isn't them). I've been in your shoes - a peer got promoted to be my manager when our old manager retired. We were okay as peers, but very bad in a hierarchy, and I eventually got fired. I should have just quit instead. Still, though, I think you're letting resentment blind you. It's easy to be the hero of your own story, and for anyone you're in conflict with to be the villain, but that doesn't mean it's right. We're all unreliable narrators. Try this exercise. Repeat after me... "I may be wrong. I am often wrong." This is my mantra. Recognize your own fallibility. Try looking at it from the perspective of "What if I'm wrong?" It solves a lot of problems (or leads to the correct solutions). And the more you do it, the easier it is. Consider my earlier point, that what he did isn't incompetence - not if his goal was to get out of technical and into management. And since he's apparently good at those people things, he might well be recognizing where his talents are, doing the right thing for himself and the organization. Consider also a telling bit of evidence in your response to me - "we worked together for two years on a daily basis". If that's true, is it also true that you did all the work and he unfairly claimed credit? What was he doing, if he wasn't writing code? Is "kiss-ass" a fair assessment, or an resentful interpretation of his useful work? Try to stop being angry long enough to consider that.
eriktate 8y ago
Nothing big ever got built by a bunch of self-centered loud mouths either. And these are typically the types that find themselves in these roles. I think you're making a big leap saying "let them deal with the frustrations of relationships". Nowhere in OP's post does he mention disliking people. In fact he seems proud of the fact that people come to him when they have questions. You need more than pure technical acumen for people to feel comfortable coming to you. Situations like these are complicated, and I'm not sure there's enough information to make a judgement one way or the other. I do think taking the "high road" here is not always the best course of action. If you're more interested in the success of your team or your product, you will remain ripe for being used by those more interested in their personal success. It's a toxic circle that's hard to escape once you find yourself in it. My advice would be to heed the red flag and look for work elsewhere. If you are being leaned on as heavily as you feel, then it will likely become apparent once you move on to greener pastures.
- Techonomicon 8y ago
  This guy right here is one of the few comments in this thread that "get it". OP seems genuinely interested in the success of the team, where as who he's talking about, seemingly at least, is interested in his own success - this isn't bad, but it generally goes against the grain of building a team of happy campers. As @eriktate said, you either make some noise because you care, or you realize that the people above this person don't understand what makes great technical leadership actually great, and you leave.
- alistproducer2 8y ago
  The OP never made the case that the person was incompetent though. I'm not seeing any red flags other than the OPs resentment. I understand where he's coming from. It's a struggle that many technical-minded folks go through in a business environment. When "I just wanna build cool stuff" clashes with "How do we manage resources efficiently to meet the deadline?"
  - Techonomicon 8y ago
    That isn't the case here, I think you're conflating the two. Building cool / cool stuff doesn't clash with meeting deadlines, knowing how to do both / when / how to compromise is vastly more useful than being either one of those two extremes. The more people in management that care about building well engineered products and that treat humans like humans and not resources the better off we are as a community.
jpm_sd 8y ago
> Nothing big ever got built by a bunch of grumpy, resentful introverts. Well, the Linux kernel did, but I think for the most part you are correct.
indogooner 8y ago
I am not sure he is a people person. He probably has good rapport with higher-ups but if people routinely bypassed him to take advice from OP that means he is clearly not valued by others in team. Once OP leaves his tech incompetence would be shown up and would lead to more devs leaving the job. These are the kind of 'people person' who hamper productivity and eventually lead to team dissolution. Although I agree he is clever enough to jump ship before that.

by beat 8y ago

JacKTrocinskI 8y ago

How can you work together or respect someone that takes credit for you work? This guy is a snake, it's not about being introverted.

beat 8y ago
Are you sure we're getting a complete story here? The OP is what writers call an "unreliable narrator". We're seeing this through his very emotional lens. It's quite possible the other person did a lot of the "people" work that enabled the code to be written and distributed. In that case, it's a "we", not an "I", and focusing entirely on "I wrote the code", ignoring how it fit into the organization, is dismissing someone else's well-deserved credit.
- unethical_ban 8y ago
  If the OP is an unreliable narrator, then you shouldn't assume the guy isn't a snake, either. I have seen the case you're wary of: a technical, but poorly communicating, employee that resents the success of a well-meaning, less technical but better communicating coworker. I have seen good people like that, and I have seen snakes that pull the "we/I" as in the OP's story.
  - beat 8y ago
    Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Generally, I don't see a lot of these "snakes" out in the real world, but I see a tremendous amount of misunderstandings, resentment, and righteous indignation. As I told the OP elsewhere, we're all the hero of our own stories, and everyone we disagree with is a villain. But ask the villain, and they think they're the hero. It's human nature. We don't want to admit that we might be wrong, that the people we disagree with might be right (or at least, the disagreement is not founded in malice). So when I see situations like this, I rarely see snakes. I see misunderstandings that can be addressed with better communication and a good dose of humility.
    - jonbronson 8y ago
      Stupidity and malice can often be two sides of the same coin. I once worked with an individual who shot down a project idea, but then executed it in secret for two weeks before revealing it as his pet project. After confronting him, he initially did not understand why this was deceitful. It took 3-4 conversations before he finally understood and sincerely apologized. He felt he was simply being competitive and that everyone did these types of things.
      - ownagefool 8y ago
        My work buddy did this. I'm pretty sure this was simply because he thought it couldn't be done, and I just put the niggling thought in his mind so he tried and was successful. Weirdly enough he was the introvert and I less so, and I got the promotion. No hard feelings on either end, as far as I know. We all have our quirks.
    - existencebox 8y ago
      Not OP or in this chain, but I'm surprised you say this (Rarely see snakes.) I have nothing to complain about. I've done very well career wise, and have no reason to beef with any of these people. But at the same time, I've concretely seen individuals lie outright, blackmail, threaten, insult, and bully their way to success. That you say you rarely see this makes me raise an eyebrow. I've gone through the "maybe I'm just seeing evil where there isn't any" thought process many times, but after watching multiple instances of negative actors take advantage of others while I was a disinterested third party, I can't but have conviction. People will abuse others when it serves them and they think they can get away with it, and in situations where power dynamics, visibility and relationships (so soft, highly non-fungible elements) drive your career, someone in power can get away with a LOT, even via only subtlety misaligning incentives. Let me be clear, this is not some dominating majority of the population, and one should not start seeing enemies around every corner, but I've seen enough that instructing a junior engineer to watch out for those who would seek to take advantage of them seems very pragmatic to my eyes.
sailfast 8y ago
To be fair, the OP said whenever the work was cooperative the person said "We", not "I", which I think is an improvement on snake. I'm not saying it's great, but it also sounds like the OP needs to be more proactive about speaking roles in meetings when it comes to value of their practices, why things were done, etc. Now, would I work for a person if I hated them? Nope. Would probably be out of there. In terms of "How can you!?", this stuff happens all the time all over the place and people work together. I think you can work through it with colleagues - it's not easy, but it's important if you think the mission / company are worthwhile. Otherwise, you're just going to dig deeper "into the box" on the credit thing and it won't be a good reflection on your work.

zldkz5 8y ago

> It seems to me like people skills are a weak spot for you. That's not true as I always hangout with the people in different teams, and, we get along pretty well. I just don't do kiss-ass to my boss and I don't take advantage out of situations. > Find ways to work together We worked together for two years on daily basis. And I overcome a lot of bad behaviours but I can't stand to report to him

Tactic 8y ago
If you don't want to quit the team/job, then I would recommend trying to adopt the viewpoint that regardless of your manager's shortcomings (we all have them) at least they understand your value as a technical resource. However, if this: > I can't stand to report to him remains true... the only solution in the end that will leave you with day-to-day satisfaction is to leave the situation. It sounds like you are aware of this. Life is not always fair but in general it is consistent.
beat 8y ago
If you can't stand to report to him, then you find another job, or at least find another department within your company so you're not under him. And it probably wouldn't hurt to talk about this conflict with other managers you do trust at the company (if you don't trust any of them, the problem almost certainly isn't them). I've been in your shoes - a peer got promoted to be my manager when our old manager retired. We were okay as peers, but very bad in a hierarchy, and I eventually got fired. I should have just quit instead. Still, though, I think you're letting resentment blind you. It's easy to be the hero of your own story, and for anyone you're in conflict with to be the villain, but that doesn't mean it's right. We're all unreliable narrators. Try this exercise. Repeat after me... "I may be wrong. I am often wrong." This is my mantra. Recognize your own fallibility. Try looking at it from the perspective of "What if I'm wrong?" It solves a lot of problems (or leads to the correct solutions). And the more you do it, the easier it is. Consider my earlier point, that what he did isn't incompetence - not if his goal was to get out of technical and into management. And since he's apparently good at those people things, he might well be recognizing where his talents are, doing the right thing for himself and the organization. Consider also a telling bit of evidence in your response to me - "we worked together for two years on a daily basis". If that's true, is it also true that you did all the work and he unfairly claimed credit? What was he doing, if he wasn't writing code? Is "kiss-ass" a fair assessment, or an resentful interpretation of his useful work? Try to stop being angry long enough to consider that.

eriktate 8y ago

Nothing big ever got built by a bunch of self-centered loud mouths either. And these are typically the types that find themselves in these roles. I think you're making a big leap saying "let them deal with the frustrations of relationships". Nowhere in OP's post does he mention disliking people. In fact he seems proud of the fact that people come to him when they have questions. You need more than pure technical acumen for people to feel comfortable coming to you. Situations like these are complicated, and I'm not sure there's enough information to make a judgement one way or the other. I do think taking the "high road" here is not always the best course of action. If you're more interested in the success of your team or your product, you will remain ripe for being used by those more interested in their personal success. It's a toxic circle that's hard to escape once you find yourself in it. My advice would be to heed the red flag and look for work elsewhere. If you are being leaned on as heavily as you feel, then it will likely become apparent once you move on to greener pastures.

Techonomicon 8y ago
This guy right here is one of the few comments in this thread that "get it". OP seems genuinely interested in the success of the team, where as who he's talking about, seemingly at least, is interested in his own success - this isn't bad, but it generally goes against the grain of building a team of happy campers. As @eriktate said, you either make some noise because you care, or you realize that the people above this person don't understand what makes great technical leadership actually great, and you leave.
alistproducer2 8y ago
The OP never made the case that the person was incompetent though. I'm not seeing any red flags other than the OPs resentment. I understand where he's coming from. It's a struggle that many technical-minded folks go through in a business environment. When "I just wanna build cool stuff" clashes with "How do we manage resources efficiently to meet the deadline?"
- Techonomicon 8y ago
  That isn't the case here, I think you're conflating the two. Building cool / cool stuff doesn't clash with meeting deadlines, knowing how to do both / when / how to compromise is vastly more useful than being either one of those two extremes. The more people in management that care about building well engineered products and that treat humans like humans and not resources the better off we are as a community.

jpm_sd 8y ago

> Nothing big ever got built by a bunch of grumpy, resentful introverts. Well, the Linux kernel did, but I think for the most part you are correct.

indogooner 8y ago

I am not sure he is a people person. He probably has good rapport with higher-ups but if people routinely bypassed him to take advice from OP that means he is clearly not valued by others in team. Once OP leaves his tech incompetence would be shown up and would lead to more devs leaving the job. These are the kind of 'people person' who hamper productivity and eventually lead to team dissolution. Although I agree he is clever enough to jump ship before that.