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Yeah, KYC/AML is totally bad because of trying to actually prevent money being funnelled into crime organization etc. This is why I cant stand ignorant crypto-

by scient 8y ago

Yeah, KYC/AML is totally bad because of trying to actually prevent money being funnelled into crime organization etc. This is why I cant stand ignorant crypto-fans.

Hermel 8y ago
Even according to the IRS's own estimates, laws like Fatca would never pass a cost/benefit test. The implementation costs of such bureaucratic monstrosities is in the range of hundreds of billions, whereas the benefit is a few orders of magnitude lower. The established banks do not complain much about it because the high fixed cost of compliance disproportionally affects small firms, thereby protecting them from being disrupted by innovative startups.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- simias 8y ago
  So I know next to nothing about these regulations but what do you mean by "cost/benefit" exactly? Surely if these rules are meant to fight (directly or indirectly) organized crime then you can't just judge them on the amount of money saved? If you spend $10 millions to prevent $1 million to reach a terrorist organization, can't you consider it money well spent?
  - avar 8y ago
    FATCA is about making non-US financial institutions report to the IRS et al about holdings of US citizens abroad. Worrying about terrorist cells in foreign countries made up of U.S. citizens is absurd.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      FATCA is the stick used to dissuade tax evasion by US citizens. If people think they can evade taxes successfully, they will. Whether this impacts Bitcoin or other crypto is inconsequential.
  - osd 8y ago
    if the terrorist organization is able to fund itself, then no, 10 to 1 is not money well spent. You'll lose in the long run.
  - wpietri 8y ago
    Exactly. If we want to do a true benefit calculation, we have to look at alternate futures. One important future to avert is where organized crime is rampant. Even if we look at only the economic costs, one study in Italy suggests mafia domination cost 16% of per-capita GDP. Given the US's $20 trillion GDP, that's quite a lot. And that's ignoring people's preference for security and safety. As an entrepreneur, for example, I think it's great that I don't have to worry about paying for "protection" to keep from having my business burned down or my legs broken. We also have to look at terrorism. KYC/AML work to keep cash out of the hands of terrorists. Terrorism is, moral and human cost aside, very expensive. The 9/11 incident alone sees estimates in the $2-3 trillion range for total economic costs. So even if KYC/AML really does cost hundreds of billions, which I doubt, it's a bargain compared to the problems it's meant to prevent. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ecoj.12235 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ecoj.12235 [2] E.g., see https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-world-after-911-part-i/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-world-after-911-part-... and https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/us/sept-11-reckoning/cost-graphic.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011...
    - antidesitter 8y ago
      > One important future to avert is where organized crime is rampant... one study in Italy suggests mafia domination cost 16% of per-capita GDP. Given the US's $20 trillion GDP, that's quite a lot. You’re making two separate, tenuous extrapolations here. Can you justify them?
      - wpietri 8y ago
        I probably can. Did you want to ask some specific question? Better, do you you have a way of calculating path-not-taken costs for rampant organized crime that you think might be more effective?
        antidesitter 8y ago
        I didn't see any calculation in the parent comment.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    My American relative that was born in the USA and lived there for about 6 weeks finally did their US tax returns a few years ago. No tax owing and received some hundreds of dollars in refunds from the IRS. They even corrected a mistake resulting in an even larger refund (forgot to apply for some program). All because of increasingly draconious laws for non-filers that conveniently ignore that most Americans abroad aren’t millionaires. Cost: hundreds of US$, data entry and processing. Benefit to US: ?????
  - joering2 8y ago
    He meant cost bebefit to organizations to implement it. Take HSBC for example, one of largest China/HK bank. They waited until Fatca kicks in, then realized it will be too complicated and expensive to implement, so what do they do? Within 45 days they kick out all us-citizen based accounts off their grid. All gone. Thats how foreign banks “comply” with Fatca. Arguably some politicians say it was actually mean to work this way so us citizens behave nice and just keep their freaking money in us banks. I know of 3 friends who had to sold their hong kong based business because noone there would open them banking account anymore so here it is american politicans screwing over american citizens having business on a foreign land.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- brohee 8y ago
  Do you have a source for your hundreds of billions (hundreds of billions what?). Compliance costs are usually baked in personnel and IT costs.
- dd36 8y ago
  KYC compliance: A form and proof of identity.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    Actually it goes a bit further than that. It means to determine the actual beneficiery of a bank account in addition to traceability of the funds used. The bloke showing id may not be the actual owner of the funds and it's up to the bank to determine this.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  FATCA has nothing to do with KYC / AML provisions. It involves, simplified, reporting requirements of US account holders by foreign banks to the US authorities. It's main purpose is to avoid tax dodging by US persons. I'm not arguing that it's a great law, since it's not. For example: it can make it extremely hard for US persons living abroad to open a bank account because foreign banks just don't want to bother with those onnerous reporting requirements. It has nothing, whatsoever, to do with KYC / AML provisions, which are very rightfully imposed on financial instituions. And yes, I work for one.
antidesitter 8y ago
I bet you also can’t stand people who oppose mass surveillance. Those ignorant people! Don’t they understand the government is just trying to prevent crime?
- kiriakasis 8y ago
  Money is by far a more delicate topic.
  - freeflight 8y ago
    I think it easily falls under the same umbrella. Financial privacy, especially from the state, is the ultimate form of privacy. There's a reason we have had bank secrecy [0] a long time before anything like the modern Internet-based privacy movements, with their much more expanded definitions, came along. Heck, some countries based a whole lot of their appeal on the strength of said bank secrecy laws, like Switzerland. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_secrecy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_secrecy
    - petre 8y ago
      Unfortunately bank secrecy is quite over even in Switzerland. They constantly get pressured by the EU to share data regarding EU citizens' accounts. The hunt for taxes is ongoing, under the pretense of preventing money laundering. Yet something in excess of 200bn euros was laundered through the Estonian branch of Danske Bank.
  - someguydave 8y ago
    why? Why is what you do with your money different than what you do with your speech?
fweespeech 8y ago
A) Large criminal organizations bypass KYC/AML/ABC just fine. B) Low-level crooks and privacy minded folks are the ones that get caught. C) Cost of compliance with KYC/AML/ABC is greater than the money recovered. https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/09/30/the-banks-that-helped-danske-bank-estonia-launder-russian-money/#18d18e767319 https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/09/30/the-b... > In that connection, a senior employee from the correspondent bank in question assessed that out of ten non-resident customers from the Estonian branch, the correspondent bank would be comfortable only with servicing one given the customers’ characteristics. The employee also warned Danske Bank against Moldovan customers and customers transferring money to Moldova. Criminal organizations just mule the cash to a friendly bank. Then things proceed accordingly and the correspondent banks will blindly play along for years. The end goal of these things are not what is sold in PR-speak. It is about expanding the surveillance state for TIA purposes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness#/media/File:Total_Information_Awareness_--_system_diagram.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness#/m... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness There is a reason they renamed this the "Terrorism Information Awareness" center and then "shut it down". But, of course, other agencies just quietly use the software instead with some superficial changes. If you think any of these ever really get "shut down" because overreach or the like...yeah. They don't. They just re-named, classified, and better hidden in some intelligence agency's toolbox. You shouldn't trust the labels on laws.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Low-level crooks and privacy minded folks are the ones that get caught Low-level crooks getting caught is how higher-level crooks get caught. > Cost of compliance with KYC/AML/ABC is greater than the money recovered. Recovering money isn't even the main overt point.
kadendogthing 8y ago
Tech enthusiasts always seem to lack education around general civics and law. But it's especially bad in the area of tech-beanie-baby fanboys who pontificate around subjects by acting totally disingenuous or just willfully ignorant. Their cult-like excitement over a merkle tree with a distributed consensus/integrity algorithm is truly insane. * What REALLY gives currency it's value, LOL? As long as other people just blindly accept the currency it's totally fine! * My currency is increasing in value dramatically so it's Working (TM) right, haha take that bootlickers. * We demolished a power grid but you know cryptocurrency is totally going to help the poor and disenfranchised! * Why do governments need to track how I spend MY money? I should be able to give it to whoever I want without question and totally don't have to pay taxes! * We don't need banks, but we do need these private entities with no oversight to manage and store our currency and facilitate trading. Definitely different and Free (TM) 1984. * Those same "banks" can easily fake trading volume but no one would do that, right? I don't understand why we have laws against that with real banks?
- petre 8y ago
  > What REALLY gives currency it's value, LOL? As long as other people just blindly accept the currency it's totally fine! Confidence. If enough people think rice bags or pressed and aged tea is money, then it is. At least you can eat rice and drink tea, bank notes or crypto hashes not so much.
  - kadendogthing 8y ago
    >If enough people think rice bags or pressed and aged tea is money, then it is. No, commodity money typically has a variety of practical functions and its function in an exchange system is born out of necessity. Not arbitrarily because people want to start doing accounting that way. I don't understand why people repeat this. It's not clever or insightful, and worse it's definitely not correct. It's gravely concerning that presumably basically educated people tout this line without a second thought when it comes to cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrency finds its value purely out of someone hoping someone else will be left holding the bag, not because it's useful.
- 8y ago
zeveb 8y ago
AML is bad because it makes a crime out of something which isn’t actually bad. Yes, criminals are bad people who do bad things and they should be caught & punished. But KYC/AML are about making it easier to find criminals by their behaviour, not about crime directly. They violate the right to privacy, among other things, but most people don't care because — by definition — most people are normal: they don't carry $10,000 across state lines; they don't pay cash for everything; they have state-issued identification. They don't care if abnormal people who aren't criminals are inconvenience or oppressed by KYC/AML laws.
- Nursie 8y ago
  Such 'abnormal' people can usually work within the law too, by declaring currency etc. AML is good because it makes it much more difficult for the proceeds of criminal activity to be blended in to the legitimate economy.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Can you provide me with just one example why money laundring is supposed to be a good thing? And can you explain how the average person is inconvenienced in any way, shape or form by AML / KYC regulations? Sorry, but your argument, so far, is just libertarian drivel.
  - zeveb 8y ago
    > Can you provide me with just one example why money laundring is supposed to be a good thing? Money laundering isn't good; the actions which are termed 'money laundering' in the law are neutral. > And can you explain how the average person is inconvenienced in any way, shape or form by AML / KYC regulations? https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/09/01/police-seized-couples-cash-they-couldnt-get-it-back-until-they-went-public/?utm_term=.803951aaadac https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/09/01/police-seiz... https://www.thestreet.com/story/12793654/1/file-10000-irs-form-prevent-asset-seizure.html https://www.thestreet.com/story/12793654/1/file-10000-irs-fo... https://ij.org/michigan-man-cleared-wrongdoing-still-fighting-civil-forfeiture-years-later/ https://ij.org/michigan-man-cleared-wrongdoing-still-fightin... https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-customs-agents-cash-forfeiture-20180531-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-customs-a... https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2018/05/15/customs-agents-seize-cash-nurse-had-saved-to-build-medical-clinic-never-charged-her-with-a-crime/#f2f59957bc95 https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2018/05/15/... And on, and on, and on. It's a real problem.
replies_to_all 8y ago
And the KYC stuff worked to stop HSBC? Right? This is why I can't stand ignorant stateists.
dang 8y ago
Please do not cross into incivility or stoop to name-calling in HN comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by scient 8y ago

Yeah, KYC/AML is totally bad because of trying to actually prevent money being funnelled into crime organization etc. This is why I cant stand ignorant crypto-fans.

Hermel 8y ago

Even according to the IRS's own estimates, laws like Fatca would never pass a cost/benefit test. The implementation costs of such bureaucratic monstrosities is in the range of hundreds of billions, whereas the benefit is a few orders of magnitude lower. The established banks do not complain much about it because the high fixed cost of compliance disproportionally affects small firms, thereby protecting them from being disrupted by innovative startups.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
simias 8y ago
So I know next to nothing about these regulations but what do you mean by "cost/benefit" exactly? Surely if these rules are meant to fight (directly or indirectly) organized crime then you can't just judge them on the amount of money saved? If you spend $10 millions to prevent $1 million to reach a terrorist organization, can't you consider it money well spent?
- avar 8y ago
  FATCA is about making non-US financial institutions report to the IRS et al about holdings of US citizens abroad. Worrying about terrorist cells in foreign countries made up of U.S. citizens is absurd.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    FATCA is the stick used to dissuade tax evasion by US citizens. If people think they can evade taxes successfully, they will. Whether this impacts Bitcoin or other crypto is inconsequential.
- osd 8y ago
  if the terrorist organization is able to fund itself, then no, 10 to 1 is not money well spent. You'll lose in the long run.
- wpietri 8y ago
  Exactly. If we want to do a true benefit calculation, we have to look at alternate futures. One important future to avert is where organized crime is rampant. Even if we look at only the economic costs, one study in Italy suggests mafia domination cost 16% of per-capita GDP. Given the US's $20 trillion GDP, that's quite a lot. And that's ignoring people's preference for security and safety. As an entrepreneur, for example, I think it's great that I don't have to worry about paying for "protection" to keep from having my business burned down or my legs broken. We also have to look at terrorism. KYC/AML work to keep cash out of the hands of terrorists. Terrorism is, moral and human cost aside, very expensive. The 9/11 incident alone sees estimates in the $2-3 trillion range for total economic costs. So even if KYC/AML really does cost hundreds of billions, which I doubt, it's a bargain compared to the problems it's meant to prevent. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ecoj.12235 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ecoj.12235 [2] E.g., see https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-world-after-911-part-i/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-world-after-911-part-... and https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/us/sept-11-reckoning/cost-graphic.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011...
  - antidesitter 8y ago
    > One important future to avert is where organized crime is rampant... one study in Italy suggests mafia domination cost 16% of per-capita GDP. Given the US's $20 trillion GDP, that's quite a lot. You’re making two separate, tenuous extrapolations here. Can you justify them?
    - wpietri 8y ago
      I probably can. Did you want to ask some specific question? Better, do you you have a way of calculating path-not-taken costs for rampant organized crime that you think might be more effective?
      - antidesitter 8y ago
        I didn't see any calculation in the parent comment.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  My American relative that was born in the USA and lived there for about 6 weeks finally did their US tax returns a few years ago. No tax owing and received some hundreds of dollars in refunds from the IRS. They even corrected a mistake resulting in an even larger refund (forgot to apply for some program). All because of increasingly draconious laws for non-filers that conveniently ignore that most Americans abroad aren’t millionaires. Cost: hundreds of US$, data entry and processing. Benefit to US: ?????
- joering2 8y ago
  He meant cost bebefit to organizations to implement it. Take HSBC for example, one of largest China/HK bank. They waited until Fatca kicks in, then realized it will be too complicated and expensive to implement, so what do they do? Within 45 days they kick out all us-citizen based accounts off their grid. All gone. Thats how foreign banks “comply” with Fatca. Arguably some politicians say it was actually mean to work this way so us citizens behave nice and just keep their freaking money in us banks. I know of 3 friends who had to sold their hong kong based business because noone there would open them banking account anymore so here it is american politicans screwing over american citizens having business on a foreign land.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
brohee 8y ago
Do you have a source for your hundreds of billions (hundreds of billions what?). Compliance costs are usually baked in personnel and IT costs.
dd36 8y ago
KYC compliance: A form and proof of identity.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Actually it goes a bit further than that. It means to determine the actual beneficiery of a bank account in addition to traceability of the funds used. The bloke showing id may not be the actual owner of the funds and it's up to the bank to determine this.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
FATCA has nothing to do with KYC / AML provisions. It involves, simplified, reporting requirements of US account holders by foreign banks to the US authorities. It's main purpose is to avoid tax dodging by US persons. I'm not arguing that it's a great law, since it's not. For example: it can make it extremely hard for US persons living abroad to open a bank account because foreign banks just don't want to bother with those onnerous reporting requirements. It has nothing, whatsoever, to do with KYC / AML provisions, which are very rightfully imposed on financial instituions. And yes, I work for one.

antidesitter 8y ago

I bet you also can’t stand people who oppose mass surveillance. Those ignorant people! Don’t they understand the government is just trying to prevent crime?

kiriakasis 8y ago
Money is by far a more delicate topic.
- freeflight 8y ago
  I think it easily falls under the same umbrella. Financial privacy, especially from the state, is the ultimate form of privacy. There's a reason we have had bank secrecy [0] a long time before anything like the modern Internet-based privacy movements, with their much more expanded definitions, came along. Heck, some countries based a whole lot of their appeal on the strength of said bank secrecy laws, like Switzerland. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_secrecy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_secrecy
  - petre 8y ago
    Unfortunately bank secrecy is quite over even in Switzerland. They constantly get pressured by the EU to share data regarding EU citizens' accounts. The hunt for taxes is ongoing, under the pretense of preventing money laundering. Yet something in excess of 200bn euros was laundered through the Estonian branch of Danske Bank.
- someguydave 8y ago
  why? Why is what you do with your money different than what you do with your speech?

fweespeech 8y ago

A) Large criminal organizations bypass KYC/AML/ABC just fine. B) Low-level crooks and privacy minded folks are the ones that get caught. C) Cost of compliance with KYC/AML/ABC is greater than the money recovered. https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/09/30/the-banks-that-helped-danske-bank-estonia-launder-russian-money/#18d18e767319 https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/09/30/the-b... > In that connection, a senior employee from the correspondent bank in question assessed that out of ten non-resident customers from the Estonian branch, the correspondent bank would be comfortable only with servicing one given the customers’ characteristics. The employee also warned Danske Bank against Moldovan customers and customers transferring money to Moldova. Criminal organizations just mule the cash to a friendly bank. Then things proceed accordingly and the correspondent banks will blindly play along for years. The end goal of these things are not what is sold in PR-speak. It is about expanding the surveillance state for TIA purposes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness#/media/File:Total_Information_Awareness_--_system_diagram.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness#/m... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awareness There is a reason they renamed this the "Terrorism Information Awareness" center and then "shut it down". But, of course, other agencies just quietly use the software instead with some superficial changes. If you think any of these ever really get "shut down" because overreach or the like...yeah. They don't. They just re-named, classified, and better hidden in some intelligence agency's toolbox. You shouldn't trust the labels on laws.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Low-level crooks and privacy minded folks are the ones that get caught Low-level crooks getting caught is how higher-level crooks get caught. > Cost of compliance with KYC/AML/ABC is greater than the money recovered. Recovering money isn't even the main overt point.

kadendogthing 8y ago

Tech enthusiasts always seem to lack education around general civics and law. But it's especially bad in the area of tech-beanie-baby fanboys who pontificate around subjects by acting totally disingenuous or just willfully ignorant. Their cult-like excitement over a merkle tree with a distributed consensus/integrity algorithm is truly insane. * What REALLY gives currency it's value, LOL? As long as other people just blindly accept the currency it's totally fine! * My currency is increasing in value dramatically so it's Working (TM) right, haha take that bootlickers. * We demolished a power grid but you know cryptocurrency is totally going to help the poor and disenfranchised! * Why do governments need to track how I spend MY money? I should be able to give it to whoever I want without question and totally don't have to pay taxes! * We don't need banks, but we do need these private entities with no oversight to manage and store our currency and facilitate trading. Definitely different and Free (TM) 1984. * Those same "banks" can easily fake trading volume but no one would do that, right? I don't understand why we have laws against that with real banks?

petre 8y ago
> What REALLY gives currency it's value, LOL? As long as other people just blindly accept the currency it's totally fine! Confidence. If enough people think rice bags or pressed and aged tea is money, then it is. At least you can eat rice and drink tea, bank notes or crypto hashes not so much.
- kadendogthing 8y ago
  >If enough people think rice bags or pressed and aged tea is money, then it is. No, commodity money typically has a variety of practical functions and its function in an exchange system is born out of necessity. Not arbitrarily because people want to start doing accounting that way. I don't understand why people repeat this. It's not clever or insightful, and worse it's definitely not correct. It's gravely concerning that presumably basically educated people tout this line without a second thought when it comes to cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrency finds its value purely out of someone hoping someone else will be left holding the bag, not because it's useful.
8y ago

zeveb 8y ago

AML is bad because it makes a crime out of something which isn’t actually bad. Yes, criminals are bad people who do bad things and they should be caught & punished. But KYC/AML are about making it easier to find criminals by their behaviour, not about crime directly. They violate the right to privacy, among other things, but most people don't care because — by definition — most people are normal: they don't carry $10,000 across state lines; they don't pay cash for everything; they have state-issued identification. They don't care if abnormal people who aren't criminals are inconvenience or oppressed by KYC/AML laws.

Nursie 8y ago
Such 'abnormal' people can usually work within the law too, by declaring currency etc. AML is good because it makes it much more difficult for the proceeds of criminal activity to be blended in to the legitimate economy.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
Can you provide me with just one example why money laundring is supposed to be a good thing? And can you explain how the average person is inconvenienced in any way, shape or form by AML / KYC regulations? Sorry, but your argument, so far, is just libertarian drivel.
- zeveb 8y ago
  > Can you provide me with just one example why money laundring is supposed to be a good thing? Money laundering isn't good; the actions which are termed 'money laundering' in the law are neutral. > And can you explain how the average person is inconvenienced in any way, shape or form by AML / KYC regulations? https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/09/01/police-seized-couples-cash-they-couldnt-get-it-back-until-they-went-public/?utm_term=.803951aaadac https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/09/01/police-seiz... https://www.thestreet.com/story/12793654/1/file-10000-irs-form-prevent-asset-seizure.html https://www.thestreet.com/story/12793654/1/file-10000-irs-fo... https://ij.org/michigan-man-cleared-wrongdoing-still-fighting-civil-forfeiture-years-later/ https://ij.org/michigan-man-cleared-wrongdoing-still-fightin... https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-customs-agents-cash-forfeiture-20180531-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-customs-a... https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2018/05/15/customs-agents-seize-cash-nurse-had-saved-to-build-medical-clinic-never-charged-her-with-a-crime/#f2f59957bc95 https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2018/05/15/... And on, and on, and on. It's a real problem.

replies_to_all 8y ago

And the KYC stuff worked to stop HSBC? Right? This is why I can't stand ignorant stateists.

dang 8y ago

Please do not cross into incivility or stoop to name-calling in HN comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html