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> the horse does not enjoy it That's a bold statement. I don't even know where to begin, there are so many levels here. Like, why would you even make such a cl

> the horse does not enjoy it That's a bold statement. I don't even know where to begin, there are so many levels here. Like, why would you even make such a claim? I mean I'm not against the claim per se, but it does not seem like you have any evidence, or that you even looked for it. Seems to come right out of some human moral position instead, one that is not rooted in nature, given how many "weird" sex stories and video documentation we can find easily these days about all kinds of animals. Like dogs humping pillows, chimpanzee "using" a frog, quite a few stories about dolphins, etc. Back to the human/dolphin story here, there also is a pretty well-known (or at least well-published) "man had sex with female dolphin" story, example article: https://www.unilad.co.uk/animals/guy-who-had-sex-with-a-dolphin-explains-how-it-happened/ https://www.unilad.co.uk/animals/guy-who-had-sex-with-a-dolp...

VBprogrammer 8y ago
Try not to get outraged by your own misquote. I clearly said "one presumes", as in without evidence. If there was a case where a horse was infatuated with the person doing the deed and the person was doing it for the sole purpose of the horses enjoyment then that'd be just as weird. Clearly the weirdness is rooted in human morality. I don't think it's unusual to judge the behaviours of humans differently to animals. Otherwise it'd be acceptable to fight to the death over "access" to females; sexual consent would be a very loose concept and defecation on street corners would be acceptable.
Balero 8y ago
From a moral standpoint, it doesn't matter if the horse enjoys it. The point is the get the semen, not for the horse to enjoy it. Whereas with the dolphin example, the point was for the dolphin to enjoy it. There was no "morally purer" point.
- mlevental 8y ago
  are you saying it's not non-consensual sex because the point is not for the horse to enjoy it but it is non-sensual sex with the dolphin because the point is for the dolphin to enjoy it.
  - Balero 8y ago
    I'm saying that intent informs morality. eg: Murder and Man Slaughter.
    - mlevental 8y ago
      so if i rape someone and i didn't intend for them to enjoy it then it's not rape? or is it that the person hasn't been raped?
      - krageon 8y ago
        You escalated your example a bit fast (putting it squarely in the territory of a maybe overly emotional argument), but you touch on a not unreasonable question. Does the horse's right to decide who it has sex with not factor into this decision at all?
        VBprogrammer 8y ago
        In an amusing twist of fate the horse would probably not exist had it not been for a long line of humans deciding which horses bred with which other horses to produce the breeds we know today.
        mlevental 8y ago
        i'm sorry i escalated? the person i was responding to cited the distinction between murder and manslaughter? >I'm saying that intent informs morality. eg: Murder and Man Slaughter.
    - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
      The intent here seems to have been to discover if the dolphin could get high. The shocking thing is the way that Lilly started with the assumption that dolphins were sentient and worth communicating with, and ended with "It's just a dumb animal, so why should we care how it feels?" The turning point seems to have been the observation that it didn't start turning cartwheels - metaphorically or otherwise - when dosed up on acid. Basically he dismissed it when it didn't turn into an acid freak - ignoring the fact that it was demonstrating curiosity, the ability to relate and form attachments, and many human-like elements of language. All of which were far more convincing as evidence of real sentience, and more worthy of research, than the fact that it failed to trip balls on cue.
- ThrowMeDown01 8y ago
  > From a moral standpoint, You mean from your (current) moral standpoint. "Moral" is not exactly something fixed, it is varies greatly depending on both space and time.
HocusLocus 8y ago
Who could forget 'Mr. Zoo'...? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMslljAllgg&t=29m45s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMslljAllgg&t=29m45s

VBprogrammer 8y ago

Try not to get outraged by your own misquote. I clearly said "one presumes", as in without evidence. If there was a case where a horse was infatuated with the person doing the deed and the person was doing it for the sole purpose of the horses enjoyment then that'd be just as weird. Clearly the weirdness is rooted in human morality. I don't think it's unusual to judge the behaviours of humans differently to animals. Otherwise it'd be acceptable to fight to the death over "access" to females; sexual consent would be a very loose concept and defecation on street corners would be acceptable.

Balero 8y ago

From a moral standpoint, it doesn't matter if the horse enjoys it. The point is the get the semen, not for the horse to enjoy it. Whereas with the dolphin example, the point was for the dolphin to enjoy it. There was no "morally purer" point.

mlevental 8y ago
are you saying it's not non-consensual sex because the point is not for the horse to enjoy it but it is non-sensual sex with the dolphin because the point is for the dolphin to enjoy it.
- Balero 8y ago
  I'm saying that intent informs morality. eg: Murder and Man Slaughter.
  - mlevental 8y ago
    so if i rape someone and i didn't intend for them to enjoy it then it's not rape? or is it that the person hasn't been raped?
    - krageon 8y ago
      You escalated your example a bit fast (putting it squarely in the territory of a maybe overly emotional argument), but you touch on a not unreasonable question. Does the horse's right to decide who it has sex with not factor into this decision at all?
      - VBprogrammer 8y ago
        In an amusing twist of fate the horse would probably not exist had it not been for a long line of humans deciding which horses bred with which other horses to produce the breeds we know today.
      - mlevental 8y ago
        i'm sorry i escalated? the person i was responding to cited the distinction between murder and manslaughter? >I'm saying that intent informs morality. eg: Murder and Man Slaughter.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    The intent here seems to have been to discover if the dolphin could get high. The shocking thing is the way that Lilly started with the assumption that dolphins were sentient and worth communicating with, and ended with "It's just a dumb animal, so why should we care how it feels?" The turning point seems to have been the observation that it didn't start turning cartwheels - metaphorically or otherwise - when dosed up on acid. Basically he dismissed it when it didn't turn into an acid freak - ignoring the fact that it was demonstrating curiosity, the ability to relate and form attachments, and many human-like elements of language. All of which were far more convincing as evidence of real sentience, and more worthy of research, than the fact that it failed to trip balls on cue.
ThrowMeDown01 8y ago
> From a moral standpoint, You mean from your (current) moral standpoint. "Moral" is not exactly something fixed, it is varies greatly depending on both space and time.

HocusLocus 8y ago

Who could forget 'Mr. Zoo'...? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMslljAllgg&t=29m45s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMslljAllgg&t=29m45s