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I could never understand why Abu Ghraib was a huge story in the west. It seemed such a tiny thing compared to the grand invasion/slaughter of Iraq going on at t

I could never understand why Abu Ghraib was a huge story in the west. It seemed such a tiny thing compared to the grand invasion/slaughter of Iraq going on at the time. Uncountable thousands killed. Yet somehow Abu Ghraib was the thing that troubled Americans. (That and how the French wouldn't join the slaughter.) Astounding.

icebraining 8y ago
The February protests in western countries¹ against the upcoming invasion were much larger than any reaction against Abu Ghraib; they were some of the largest anti-war rallies in known history. ¹I realize they were worldwide, but we're talking about the west
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Sure, I was a part of the huge Sydney protest, carrying a poster listing the names of about a dozen chemical weapons the US had sold to Iraq, under the title "Where did Saddam get his weapons?" I was talking about size of the story. (e.g. If the US kills 3,000 people in a far-off country, no biggie. However, 9/11 was a huge story.) The Australian media was largely, as usual around those times the US is preparing to invade somewhere or mid-doing it, echoing mainstream US TV opinion. Well, a lot of those US shows are shown here too. There was a lot of soul searching in the US about the extremely troubling Abu Ghraib scandal, which went on for some time, and left some kind of permanent mark. The protests were covered when they happened, but I don't think they produced the same moral....pseudo-crisis at all, and quickly disappeared. They could be ignored.
joe_the_user 8y ago
Abu Ghraib and My Lai were, as the parent said, "failure of leadership" - whether the failure involved troops not being disciplined or simply the troops indiscipline becoming known to the public. The invasive and the Vietnam War were policies. Leadership decided on these and if the death and destruction involved had remained entirely under leadership's control, no further problems would have been perceived. That the excesses of war, rather than war itself, can considered the problem is a success for policy since it allows a wedge to be driven once the public sours on war. "No more Vietnam Wars", a slogan the vast majority embraced after Vietnam, was a slogan that could morph to "no more unsuccessful wars fought with conscripts who discipline breaks down, next time we'll do it right!".
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Ok thanks. Note that the subject has moved from the initial questioning of the claim that military leaders "have thought quite long and hard about their moral positions. It is the nature of the business, when sending people to die, to question everything about yourself." Killjoywashere was asked "Do you have any data backing up this claim?" And in answer was given these 'failures of leadership', which seem to be PR disasters (the problem was not that they happened but that people found out about them - "simply the troops indiscipline becoming known to the public" - things that couldn't possibly be spun as the greatest country on Earth doing God's work) or people not doing their duty. The moral dimension has entirely disappeared, which rather supports garyhunt's suspicions. Maybe questioning everything about your country is more important than 'questioning everything about yourself'. More important for the hundreds of thousands that were killed, at least.

icebraining 8y ago

The February protests in western countries¹ against the upcoming invasion were much larger than any reaction against Abu Ghraib; they were some of the largest anti-war rallies in known history. ¹I realize they were worldwide, but we're talking about the west

yesenadam 8y ago
Sure, I was a part of the huge Sydney protest, carrying a poster listing the names of about a dozen chemical weapons the US had sold to Iraq, under the title "Where did Saddam get his weapons?" I was talking about size of the story. (e.g. If the US kills 3,000 people in a far-off country, no biggie. However, 9/11 was a huge story.) The Australian media was largely, as usual around those times the US is preparing to invade somewhere or mid-doing it, echoing mainstream US TV opinion. Well, a lot of those US shows are shown here too. There was a lot of soul searching in the US about the extremely troubling Abu Ghraib scandal, which went on for some time, and left some kind of permanent mark. The protests were covered when they happened, but I don't think they produced the same moral....pseudo-crisis at all, and quickly disappeared. They could be ignored.

joe_the_user 8y ago

Abu Ghraib and My Lai were, as the parent said, "failure of leadership" - whether the failure involved troops not being disciplined or simply the troops indiscipline becoming known to the public. The invasive and the Vietnam War were policies. Leadership decided on these and if the death and destruction involved had remained entirely under leadership's control, no further problems would have been perceived. That the excesses of war, rather than war itself, can considered the problem is a success for policy since it allows a wedge to be driven once the public sours on war. "No more Vietnam Wars", a slogan the vast majority embraced after Vietnam, was a slogan that could morph to "no more unsuccessful wars fought with conscripts who discipline breaks down, next time we'll do it right!".

yesenadam 8y ago
Ok thanks. Note that the subject has moved from the initial questioning of the claim that military leaders "have thought quite long and hard about their moral positions. It is the nature of the business, when sending people to die, to question everything about yourself." Killjoywashere was asked "Do you have any data backing up this claim?" And in answer was given these 'failures of leadership', which seem to be PR disasters (the problem was not that they happened but that people found out about them - "simply the troops indiscipline becoming known to the public" - things that couldn't possibly be spun as the greatest country on Earth doing God's work) or people not doing their duty. The moral dimension has entirely disappeared, which rather supports garyhunt's suspicions. Maybe questioning everything about your country is more important than 'questioning everything about yourself'. More important for the hundreds of thousands that were killed, at least.