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The quest for freedom and safety: Why I donated $100,000 to YesOn19

311 points by paul 16y ago

credo 16y ago
Prop 19 is limited to marijuana, but almost everything in your post is applicable to other drugs (cocaine etc.) Would you vote yes on a future proposition that legalizes all drugs ?
- wnoise 16y ago
  That question doesn't have to be decided now. We can look at the effects of Prop 19, and see what the results suggest about legalizing cocaine, heroin, or even pseudoephedrine.
  - netcan 16y ago
    Exactly. Even if you are a complete anti prohibition believer, you will probably take route. In other words, even if you decided to legalise everything, a good strategy would be to start with marijuana, see the effects, add some more drugs to the list, etc.
- itistoday 16y ago
  The harmful effects of prohibition exist irrespective of the drug. History has shown that they are largely of the same character (but perhaps different in scale) for cocaine, heroin, alcohol, etc. You take a substance out of the hands of professionals and place it into the hands of criminals. The quality of the substance goes down. The number of dead bodies goes up. The truth about the drugs themselves gets completely distorted with lies and propaganda instead of becoming common knowledge. Legalization should go hand-in-hand with education and healthcare reform. If you get those elements right, you'll have a much more functioning society. Fewer drunk drivers, fewer overdoses, and no drug cartels to speak of.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "Legalization should go hand-in-hand with education and healthcare reform. If you get those elements right, you'll have a much more functioning society. Fewer drunk drivers, fewer overdoses, and no drug cartels to speak of." What healthcare reform? Are we going to pay for the health care of addicts now? If you become an addict you should have to also deal with the consequences. Education should concentrate on telling kids not to touch drugs because most likely, they will fuck up their life. Pot may not be chemically addicting or as harmful as cigarettes, but it ruins your ambition and can be even worse for kids or even younger adults that should be figuring out what they want to do in life. I also don't think it will get rid of the drug cartels. They will just have a legal way of funding their operations. It will only make it easier for them to make money.
- c1sc0 16y ago
  I don't even have a vote in this matter, but yes. legalization + regulation is the answer here.
jbail 16y ago
Stemming the flow of money to brutal drug lords is reason #1 to rethink the current drug policies. Glad to see that point spelled out so clearly. What's going on in Mexico is truly heartbreaking. Marijuana is clearly a big piece of the puzzle, but what about legalizing harder drugs like cocaine? EDIT: Removed the question because I saw another HN'er posted it. Then added it back when Paul responded so it'd make sense in context.
- paul 16y ago
  I don't know what the answer is for all drugs, but Marijuana should obviously be legal, so that's a good place to start. If we wait for the perfect answer to all questions, we'll never fix anything.
  - jbail 16y ago
    Well said. Thanks for standing up on a tough issue.
  - credo 16y ago
    jbail was referring to my comment which was posted a few minutes earlier than his. However, my question was a bit more pointed and I think you haven't addressed it. The justifications used in your post are equally applicable to cocaine and to other drugs. If different drugs have different answers, why didn't you (or why don't you) explain why your argument is limited to marijuana. OTH if you strongly believe in the philosophy outlined in your post, what is stopping you from endorsing similar initiatives for cocaine and why would cocaine potentially need a different answer ? [edit] I see a lot of good responses, but all of them special-case marijuana (e.g. marijuana is less addictive than heroin). This is fine, but Paul's post has flowery language about freedom and all of that language is applicable to heroin as well. Paul's post doesn't make the case for special-casing marijuana. On the contrary, if he denied the principles of "freedom" for cocaine, it would undermine his post which is all about "freedom" and nothing about marijuana being less dangerous than cocaine etc.
    - aero142 16y ago
hfinney 16y ago
Why are all these donations happening so late? It's four days until the election. Half the electorate has already voted, and the rest are tuning everything out by now. Prop 19 is failing and it's too late for advertising to make a difference. Where were all these deep pockets a month ago?
- mcknz 16y ago
  I don't think it's too late. There are always voters who base their decision on the last information they receive. Last-minute ads can influence those people.
- derwiki 16y ago
  A lot of the potential supporters for Prop 19 might need a last minute reminder ;-)
- paul 16y ago
  Better late than never :) Apparently a very large fraction of voters actually make their decision while in the voting booth!
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- dotBen 16y ago
  I agree with your point (I also agree on YES on 19, although I'm not allowed to vote here in CA). I'm guessing the late run of donations is because latest polls show there is a 50/50 chance of this passing, whereas a few months ago it looked like it was unlikely. You either put up $100k earlier on to make a wider political statement regardless of the chances of outcome or you put up $100k to help create tip the balance when it looks like things could go either way...
  - wnoise 16y ago
    > although I'm not allowed to vote here in CA You are allowed to man phone banks for get out the vote efforts, and are allowed to drive people to the polls, however. These multiplicative effects are likely to do more than just voting.
kristofferR 16y ago
Damn, I really hope Prop 19 passes. I'm not even American, but a passage would mark the start of the end of the dreadful war on marijuana around the world. Other states would follow, then Latin America (the former Mexican President said "May God let it pass" about Prop 19), countries in Europe (Netherlands, Spain, Denmark) and slowly it would be legalized around the world. Defeat would be a major setback. I urge all Californians who're reading this to do their absolute best to make it pass in these last vital days. Join the phone banks, make sure all your friends are voting, campaign at universities. It could make a large difference, larger than you probably think.
- dotBen 16y ago
  Other states would follow, then... countries in Europe (Netherlands, Spain, Denmark) It already is legalized in Netherlands and decriminalized (I believe) in Spain and Denmark, as well as UK (although that's about to change back I hear).
  - kristofferR 16y ago
    It's just decriminalized in the Netherlands actually, the coffeshops are tolerated, but not legal. Producing marijuana is not legal at all.
    - rabble 16y ago
      It's also completely decriminalized in Portugal, it worked well. California jails so many people on pot charges.
  - 0-4 16y ago
    It's never been decriminalized in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis#United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis#United_Kin... Under Labour they reclassified it as class C for a while but then put it back to class B in 2009.
  - netcan 16y ago
    The european approach (de facto decriminalization) doesn't solve most of the problems americans are concerned with. Basically, the last link or two (user and/or retail supplier) are decriminalized, but the rest stay illegal. This keeps production and supply in the hands of actual criminals that deal across countries. The legalized links are operated by borderline criminals and shady people. It makes life better for the consumer (I have no problems with this), solves a lot of the policing issues but doesn't tackle solve organised crime, quality issues etc. If you are only interested in legalising marijuana, this policy doesn't create the wall between soft & hard drugs either. That is, marijuana stays in the "drugs" category and doesn't enter the alcohol category (where regular users will be appalled at the thought of their adult children using, for example, marijuana).
philwelch 16y ago
I really wish I lived in CA so I could vote for this. We had a similar initiative here in WA, but they didn't get enough signatures to put it on the ballot.
rmorrison 16y ago
I am a firm supporter of Prop 19, but I have one major concern: that as cannabis laws are eased in the US, gangs and criminals that used to make their living from pushing cannibis will start pushing harder drugs (like cocaine), causing an increase in violence (as more people fight for a smaller market) and heavier drugs getting pushed on school children. I suspect (though I haven't researched further) that the recent crime uptick in northern Mexico is due to the easing of cannabis laws across America over the past few years, and that it'll just get worse after Prop 19 is passed. Personally, I think the solution is to legalize all drugs, and to put the money that we're spending on the war on drugs into medical treatment and education. It's obviously a difficult situation, but I'm glad to see that we're making progress.
- rick888 16y ago
  "Personally, I think the solution is to legalize all drugs, and to put the money that we're spending on the war on drugs into medical treatment and education. It's obviously a difficult situation, but I'm glad to see that we're making progress." So we make it easier for someone to become an addict and then pay millions to treat them? I also fail to see how education is going to work. The education people need is to tell them to stay away from drugs in the first place.
  - squidsoup 16y ago
    Simply telling kids to stay away from drugs is a paternalistic approach that doesn't work, particularly when you consider that teenagers tend 'rebel' against advice from authority. Genuine education would inform without bias, and allow people to make informed, safe choices.
siegler 16y ago
I haven't studied Prop 19 at all, but my guess is that its primary purpose is to get democrats to the polls. It's just like all the 'defense of marriage' propositions that were on the ballot when Bush was trying to get reelected to get republicans to the polls. If so, that's quite a way for a libertarian to waste $100k. edit: I love the open debate. Yeah, legalizing pot is definitely the most pressing problem facing our nation, so let's downvote anybody who says differently. HN is turning into Reddit.
- prodigal_erik 16y ago
  Consider how many people are stuck in cages for no good reason over this. If some organization other than the government were kidnapping that many people, solving that problem would be a high priority. Besides, the opportunity cost is zero to not lock these people up. It's not as if some other problem is going unsolved in favor of taking this law off the books.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "Consider how many people are stuck in cages for no good reason over this. If some organization other than the government were kidnapping that many people, solving that problem would be a high priority." Consider how much money the government is stealing from its citizens for no good reason. If some organization other than the government were doing this, solving the problem would be high priority.. The reason it's not high priority is because those people knowingly used an illegal substance and got caught. I also think you are over-estimating the amount of causal drug users in prison.
    - prodigal_erik 16y ago
      > knowingly used an illegal substance and got caught That can be a reason to believe they should remain imprisoned, but not a reason to believe they should be released but it's not a priority to do that anytime soon. > over-estimating the amount of causal drug users in prison It's possible. The drug war has vastly increased prison populations, but it's hard to come by unbiased statistics about how many of those people committed any non-victimless crimes.
hugh3 16y ago
I'm sorry, but this thread is really just politics. I know Paul Buchheit's own submission of Paul Buchheit's article about why Paul Buchheit donated some money to a political cause has Buckley's chance of being deleted, but, y'know, it really is just political advocacy on a subject unrelated to anything other than politics. I hate to be a dick here, Paul, but, y'know.
- delano 16y ago
  It's okay to believe in something.
- thompo 16y ago
  you really can't see the potential start-up opportunities that will come forth through the legalization of a substance that millions of people use worldwide? well at least i know you won't be my competition. keep on keeping on man.
  - 0-4 16y ago
    You really want think creating a drug based startup is a good idea? Who would buy it? No one would advertise on it. No users would pay for it. And it would be morally questionable. But if that's what floats your boat...
    - ThomPete 16y ago
      What do you mean no one would? I would if it would connect with my target group.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - cullenking 16y ago
      No, but buying up drug based domains in the event that it becomes a legal market doesn't sound too bad.... cough oregoncannabis.com oregonbud.com cough
    - thompo 16y ago
seanalltogether 16y ago
I find conversations about the black market in general to be an interesting topic on the desires of society versus the realities of society and how we attempt to reign in human behavior. My personal stance is that governments need to admit that the black market is a fundamental condition of humanity, and trying to stamp it out is impossible. However it is the governments responsibility to monitor the black market and prevent it from becoming too large, and the only way of doing that is to legalize the most popular activities found within the black market. If America legalized prostitution, marijuana and cocaine today, i would guess that the black market would be put on life support here in the states.
0-4 16y ago
What about the freedom and safety of being able to breathe clean drug free air? edit: yay hackernews! Just downmod me because your liberal hippy viewpoints disagree. The chances of prop19 passing are 0.
- dannytatom 16y ago
  I'm pretty sure this won't allow you to walk around town smokin' blunts.
  - guelo 16y ago
    I think that's exactly what it will let you do, that's the whole point.
    - drm237 16y ago
      There are already anti-smoking laws in place that prohibit you from smoking in many (all?) public places (at least in SF). Worrying about your freedom to breath clean air isn't in any way related to prop-19, it's about smoking in general which for the most part has already been dealt with.
      - guelo 16y ago
        In SF you are allowed to smoke cigarettes outdoors most places except near public doorways. You are definitely allowed to smoke while you "walk around town"
        anigbrowl 16y ago
        15 years ago you could smoke in bars and restaurants too. Next year may see restrictions on smoking in beaches and parks, although I have my doubts about how effective that will be. If you drink alcohol on the street other than at a licensed outdoor event, a police officer can make you throw it away or issue a citation resulting in a fine. This seems pretty effective overall.
        16y ago
VladRussian 16y ago
The most powerful CA union - prison guards union. More convicts - more power to the union. Most of the convicts are war on drugs victims, with majority - marijuana related.
- ghotli 16y ago
  Man. Prison guard unions. Those don't seem like a great idea. I guess having that right to unionize is out there, but in this case it certainly doesn't seem right. Sounds ripe for corruption.
  - VladRussian 16y ago
    >Those don't seem like a great idea. Well, with your taste to great ideas you'll have fun looking at this one as well http://www.correctionscorp.com/ http://www.correctionscorp.com/ : "CCA's 19th Annual Chairman’s Charity Golf Classic hosted nearly 300 golfers and donated almost $150,000 to nonprofit organizations in Middle Tennessee. "
- hristov 16y ago
  What is your point? AFAIK the prison guards union is not against prop 19, they said they are neutral.
  - VladRussian 16y ago
    They aren't that direct. Look at least an inch deep beyond the surface, What they do, whom they support. For example, in the Oakland mayor race among the 2 front runners, one favors more police cuts vs. cuts in public programs (like after school, etc...) while the other would cut 180 degrees differently. Question: whom the union supports? Hint: whose policies would allow for higher yield and harvesting of more inmates? Bonus question: why would the union support anybody in the Oakland mayoral race?
johngalt 16y ago
What I've always found odd about pot smokers: They will generally have a diatribe about "evil corporations are poisoning us with HFCS/Vaccines/GM food/etc..." Meanwhile they are saying that the federal government shouldn't regulate what someone puts in their body. Personally I'd like to err on the side of freedom, but all the same there are real risks out there. We can't expect society/government to take care of all dangers, then turn around and say "I should be able to take whatever I want!" Or to put it more bluntly imagine medicare costs if we legalize all drugs. Imagine the emergency rooms?
- aneth 16y ago
  I think that people who think this way tend to smoke pot, not the other way around. There are plenty of fully functional pot smokers without conspiracy theories. This is like sitting in a bar listening to the same sob stories repeated week after week at a local dive bar and saying all drinkers are defeatist losers.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "I think that people who think this way tend to smoke pot, not the other way around. There are plenty of fully functional pot smokers without conspiracy theories." Smoking pot makes many people paranoid. This is fact. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine that these people are conspiracy theorists. "This is like sitting in a bar listening to the same sob stories repeated week after week at a local dive bar and saying all drinkers are defeatist losers." When you hear the above from many different groups of people in different parts of the US/world that smoke pot, it really makes you wonder.
ChRoss 16y ago
Sorry for my ignorance, since I'm living in Asia, and I have never deal with drugs, so my knowledge are basically from news. How is this Prop19 will 'surely' change everything? Especially related to drug cartel.
- eli 16y ago
  If people are allowed to buy, sell, and even grow their own drugs legally they will no longer have to participate in a black market that often benefits Mexican drug cartels.
  - ChRoss 16y ago
    Well I'm not sure if they can grow it. But, isn't that mean you're going to provide a legal way for the cartel to make money? Now they can sell in legal market, and sure more people will be able to consume it since it's legal now, and the cartel will make 'more' money? My previous question is actually to find out what kind of measurement, precaution or whatever it is, to make sure that Prop19 will cripple drug cartels, without creating another problem.
    - eli 16y ago
      Yes, Prop 19 will let you grow a small amount of marijuana for personal use. But it will certainly never be legal to smuggle drugs across the border. Moreover the profit margins go way down because you are no longer covering the risk of arrest to those growing and supplying the drug.
hasenj 16y ago
> If we are always held back by our own fears and self-limiting beliefs, then we aren't really free. Similarly, if we are controlled by our desires, we're not really free. An addict is not really free because he can't control himself. > Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Drugs are definitely not essential. > prohibition also provides a multi-billion dollar subsidy to violent criminal organizations that threaten our physical safety and security Crime networks exist not because of strong government or strict laws; they exist because of moral corruption in the society. A strong government, strongly connected coherent society with powerful social moral values actually reduce the size and power of crime networks.
Dennis_ 16y ago
Hats off to this fellow for promoting freedom and liberty. I am glad that people are slowly starting to realize we don't have a right to tell others what they can do with their bodies. If 19 passes it will be one tiny prick in the side of the petty tyrants who believe they have a right to force others to follow their views.
stretchwithme 16y ago
Right on. The drug war is a huge waste of money and lives and foreign policy capital. It needs to end. I really feel drug rules (not laws) need to be set at the neighborhood level by simple majority vote. That way you can live where the limits suit you and you don't need to try to control what the whole country does. Freedom is not just about allowing everyone to do anything. Its also about people being able to make the living arrangements that suit them without having to impose their choices upon others. Its too much work anyway, always fighting these battles. Lets call a truce and go our separate ways together.
Mz 16y ago
I don't know what the answer is. But whenever a topic like this comes up, I can't help but think about Prohibition and how it failed to stop people from drinking alcohol and, instead, just created powerful crime lords. Ultimately, it was repealed (but only after Capone and the whole legendary Chicago gangland era).

311 points by paul 16y ago

credo 16y ago

Prop 19 is limited to marijuana, but almost everything in your post is applicable to other drugs (cocaine etc.) Would you vote yes on a future proposition that legalizes all drugs ?

wnoise 16y ago
That question doesn't have to be decided now. We can look at the effects of Prop 19, and see what the results suggest about legalizing cocaine, heroin, or even pseudoephedrine.
- netcan 16y ago
  Exactly. Even if you are a complete anti prohibition believer, you will probably take route. In other words, even if you decided to legalise everything, a good strategy would be to start with marijuana, see the effects, add some more drugs to the list, etc.
itistoday 16y ago
The harmful effects of prohibition exist irrespective of the drug. History has shown that they are largely of the same character (but perhaps different in scale) for cocaine, heroin, alcohol, etc. You take a substance out of the hands of professionals and place it into the hands of criminals. The quality of the substance goes down. The number of dead bodies goes up. The truth about the drugs themselves gets completely distorted with lies and propaganda instead of becoming common knowledge. Legalization should go hand-in-hand with education and healthcare reform. If you get those elements right, you'll have a much more functioning society. Fewer drunk drivers, fewer overdoses, and no drug cartels to speak of.
- rick888 16y ago
  "Legalization should go hand-in-hand with education and healthcare reform. If you get those elements right, you'll have a much more functioning society. Fewer drunk drivers, fewer overdoses, and no drug cartels to speak of." What healthcare reform? Are we going to pay for the health care of addicts now? If you become an addict you should have to also deal with the consequences. Education should concentrate on telling kids not to touch drugs because most likely, they will fuck up their life. Pot may not be chemically addicting or as harmful as cigarettes, but it ruins your ambition and can be even worse for kids or even younger adults that should be figuring out what they want to do in life. I also don't think it will get rid of the drug cartels. They will just have a legal way of funding their operations. It will only make it easier for them to make money.
c1sc0 16y ago
I don't even have a vote in this matter, but yes. legalization + regulation is the answer here.

jbail 16y ago

Stemming the flow of money to brutal drug lords is reason #1 to rethink the current drug policies. Glad to see that point spelled out so clearly. What's going on in Mexico is truly heartbreaking. Marijuana is clearly a big piece of the puzzle, but what about legalizing harder drugs like cocaine? EDIT: Removed the question because I saw another HN'er posted it. Then added it back when Paul responded so it'd make sense in context.

paul 16y ago
I don't know what the answer is for all drugs, but Marijuana should obviously be legal, so that's a good place to start. If we wait for the perfect answer to all questions, we'll never fix anything.
- jbail 16y ago
  Well said. Thanks for standing up on a tough issue.
- credo 16y ago
  jbail was referring to my comment which was posted a few minutes earlier than his. However, my question was a bit more pointed and I think you haven't addressed it. The justifications used in your post are equally applicable to cocaine and to other drugs. If different drugs have different answers, why didn't you (or why don't you) explain why your argument is limited to marijuana. OTH if you strongly believe in the philosophy outlined in your post, what is stopping you from endorsing similar initiatives for cocaine and why would cocaine potentially need a different answer ? [edit] I see a lot of good responses, but all of them special-case marijuana (e.g. marijuana is less addictive than heroin). This is fine, but Paul's post has flowery language about freedom and all of that language is applicable to heroin as well. Paul's post doesn't make the case for special-casing marijuana. On the contrary, if he denied the principles of "freedom" for cocaine, it would undermine his post which is all about "freedom" and nothing about marijuana being less dangerous than cocaine etc.
  - aero142 16y ago

hfinney 16y ago

Why are all these donations happening so late? It's four days until the election. Half the electorate has already voted, and the rest are tuning everything out by now. Prop 19 is failing and it's too late for advertising to make a difference. Where were all these deep pockets a month ago?

mcknz 16y ago
I don't think it's too late. There are always voters who base their decision on the last information they receive. Last-minute ads can influence those people.
derwiki 16y ago
A lot of the potential supporters for Prop 19 might need a last minute reminder ;-)
paul 16y ago
Better late than never :) Apparently a very large fraction of voters actually make their decision while in the voting booth!
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
dotBen 16y ago
I agree with your point (I also agree on YES on 19, although I'm not allowed to vote here in CA). I'm guessing the late run of donations is because latest polls show there is a 50/50 chance of this passing, whereas a few months ago it looked like it was unlikely. You either put up $100k earlier on to make a wider political statement regardless of the chances of outcome or you put up $100k to help create tip the balance when it looks like things could go either way...
- wnoise 16y ago
  > although I'm not allowed to vote here in CA You are allowed to man phone banks for get out the vote efforts, and are allowed to drive people to the polls, however. These multiplicative effects are likely to do more than just voting.

kristofferR 16y ago

Damn, I really hope Prop 19 passes. I'm not even American, but a passage would mark the start of the end of the dreadful war on marijuana around the world. Other states would follow, then Latin America (the former Mexican President said "May God let it pass" about Prop 19), countries in Europe (Netherlands, Spain, Denmark) and slowly it would be legalized around the world. Defeat would be a major setback. I urge all Californians who're reading this to do their absolute best to make it pass in these last vital days. Join the phone banks, make sure all your friends are voting, campaign at universities. It could make a large difference, larger than you probably think.

dotBen 16y ago
Other states would follow, then... countries in Europe (Netherlands, Spain, Denmark) It already is legalized in Netherlands and decriminalized (I believe) in Spain and Denmark, as well as UK (although that's about to change back I hear).
- kristofferR 16y ago
  It's just decriminalized in the Netherlands actually, the coffeshops are tolerated, but not legal. Producing marijuana is not legal at all.
  - rabble 16y ago
    It's also completely decriminalized in Portugal, it worked well. California jails so many people on pot charges.
- 0-4 16y ago
  It's never been decriminalized in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis#United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis#United_Kin... Under Labour they reclassified it as class C for a while but then put it back to class B in 2009.
- netcan 16y ago
  The european approach (de facto decriminalization) doesn't solve most of the problems americans are concerned with. Basically, the last link or two (user and/or retail supplier) are decriminalized, but the rest stay illegal. This keeps production and supply in the hands of actual criminals that deal across countries. The legalized links are operated by borderline criminals and shady people. It makes life better for the consumer (I have no problems with this), solves a lot of the policing issues but doesn't tackle solve organised crime, quality issues etc. If you are only interested in legalising marijuana, this policy doesn't create the wall between soft & hard drugs either. That is, marijuana stays in the "drugs" category and doesn't enter the alcohol category (where regular users will be appalled at the thought of their adult children using, for example, marijuana).

philwelch 16y ago

I really wish I lived in CA so I could vote for this. We had a similar initiative here in WA, but they didn't get enough signatures to put it on the ballot.

rmorrison 16y ago

I am a firm supporter of Prop 19, but I have one major concern: that as cannabis laws are eased in the US, gangs and criminals that used to make their living from pushing cannibis will start pushing harder drugs (like cocaine), causing an increase in violence (as more people fight for a smaller market) and heavier drugs getting pushed on school children. I suspect (though I haven't researched further) that the recent crime uptick in northern Mexico is due to the easing of cannabis laws across America over the past few years, and that it'll just get worse after Prop 19 is passed. Personally, I think the solution is to legalize all drugs, and to put the money that we're spending on the war on drugs into medical treatment and education. It's obviously a difficult situation, but I'm glad to see that we're making progress.

rick888 16y ago
"Personally, I think the solution is to legalize all drugs, and to put the money that we're spending on the war on drugs into medical treatment and education. It's obviously a difficult situation, but I'm glad to see that we're making progress." So we make it easier for someone to become an addict and then pay millions to treat them? I also fail to see how education is going to work. The education people need is to tell them to stay away from drugs in the first place.
- squidsoup 16y ago
  Simply telling kids to stay away from drugs is a paternalistic approach that doesn't work, particularly when you consider that teenagers tend 'rebel' against advice from authority. Genuine education would inform without bias, and allow people to make informed, safe choices.

siegler 16y ago

I haven't studied Prop 19 at all, but my guess is that its primary purpose is to get democrats to the polls. It's just like all the 'defense of marriage' propositions that were on the ballot when Bush was trying to get reelected to get republicans to the polls. If so, that's quite a way for a libertarian to waste $100k. edit: I love the open debate. Yeah, legalizing pot is definitely the most pressing problem facing our nation, so let's downvote anybody who says differently. HN is turning into Reddit.

prodigal_erik 16y ago
Consider how many people are stuck in cages for no good reason over this. If some organization other than the government were kidnapping that many people, solving that problem would be a high priority. Besides, the opportunity cost is zero to not lock these people up. It's not as if some other problem is going unsolved in favor of taking this law off the books.
- rick888 16y ago
  "Consider how many people are stuck in cages for no good reason over this. If some organization other than the government were kidnapping that many people, solving that problem would be a high priority." Consider how much money the government is stealing from its citizens for no good reason. If some organization other than the government were doing this, solving the problem would be high priority.. The reason it's not high priority is because those people knowingly used an illegal substance and got caught. I also think you are over-estimating the amount of causal drug users in prison.
  - prodigal_erik 16y ago
    > knowingly used an illegal substance and got caught That can be a reason to believe they should remain imprisoned, but not a reason to believe they should be released but it's not a priority to do that anytime soon. > over-estimating the amount of causal drug users in prison It's possible. The drug war has vastly increased prison populations, but it's hard to come by unbiased statistics about how many of those people committed any non-victimless crimes.

hugh3 16y ago

I'm sorry, but this thread is really just politics. I know Paul Buchheit's own submission of Paul Buchheit's article about why Paul Buchheit donated some money to a political cause has Buckley's chance of being deleted, but, y'know, it really is just political advocacy on a subject unrelated to anything other than politics. I hate to be a dick here, Paul, but, y'know.

delano 16y ago
It's okay to believe in something.
thompo 16y ago
you really can't see the potential start-up opportunities that will come forth through the legalization of a substance that millions of people use worldwide? well at least i know you won't be my competition. keep on keeping on man.
- 0-4 16y ago
  You really want think creating a drug based startup is a good idea? Who would buy it? No one would advertise on it. No users would pay for it. And it would be morally questionable. But if that's what floats your boat...
  - ThomPete 16y ago
    What do you mean no one would? I would if it would connect with my target group.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - cullenking 16y ago
    No, but buying up drug based domains in the event that it becomes a legal market doesn't sound too bad.... cough oregoncannabis.com oregonbud.com cough
  - thompo 16y ago

seanalltogether 16y ago

I find conversations about the black market in general to be an interesting topic on the desires of society versus the realities of society and how we attempt to reign in human behavior. My personal stance is that governments need to admit that the black market is a fundamental condition of humanity, and trying to stamp it out is impossible. However it is the governments responsibility to monitor the black market and prevent it from becoming too large, and the only way of doing that is to legalize the most popular activities found within the black market. If America legalized prostitution, marijuana and cocaine today, i would guess that the black market would be put on life support here in the states.

0-4 16y ago

What about the freedom and safety of being able to breathe clean drug free air? edit: yay hackernews! Just downmod me because your liberal hippy viewpoints disagree. The chances of prop19 passing are 0.

dannytatom 16y ago
I'm pretty sure this won't allow you to walk around town smokin' blunts.
- guelo 16y ago
  I think that's exactly what it will let you do, that's the whole point.
  - drm237 16y ago
    There are already anti-smoking laws in place that prohibit you from smoking in many (all?) public places (at least in SF). Worrying about your freedom to breath clean air isn't in any way related to prop-19, it's about smoking in general which for the most part has already been dealt with.
    - guelo 16y ago
      In SF you are allowed to smoke cigarettes outdoors most places except near public doorways. You are definitely allowed to smoke while you "walk around town"
      - anigbrowl 16y ago
        15 years ago you could smoke in bars and restaurants too. Next year may see restrictions on smoking in beaches and parks, although I have my doubts about how effective that will be. If you drink alcohol on the street other than at a licensed outdoor event, a police officer can make you throw it away or issue a citation resulting in a fine. This seems pretty effective overall.
      - 16y ago

VladRussian 16y ago

The most powerful CA union - prison guards union. More convicts - more power to the union. Most of the convicts are war on drugs victims, with majority - marijuana related.

ghotli 16y ago
Man. Prison guard unions. Those don't seem like a great idea. I guess having that right to unionize is out there, but in this case it certainly doesn't seem right. Sounds ripe for corruption.
- VladRussian 16y ago
  >Those don't seem like a great idea. Well, with your taste to great ideas you'll have fun looking at this one as well http://www.correctionscorp.com/ http://www.correctionscorp.com/ : "CCA's 19th Annual Chairman’s Charity Golf Classic hosted nearly 300 golfers and donated almost $150,000 to nonprofit organizations in Middle Tennessee. "
hristov 16y ago
What is your point? AFAIK the prison guards union is not against prop 19, they said they are neutral.
- VladRussian 16y ago
  They aren't that direct. Look at least an inch deep beyond the surface, What they do, whom they support. For example, in the Oakland mayor race among the 2 front runners, one favors more police cuts vs. cuts in public programs (like after school, etc...) while the other would cut 180 degrees differently. Question: whom the union supports? Hint: whose policies would allow for higher yield and harvesting of more inmates? Bonus question: why would the union support anybody in the Oakland mayoral race?

johngalt 16y ago

What I've always found odd about pot smokers: They will generally have a diatribe about "evil corporations are poisoning us with HFCS/Vaccines/GM food/etc..." Meanwhile they are saying that the federal government shouldn't regulate what someone puts in their body. Personally I'd like to err on the side of freedom, but all the same there are real risks out there. We can't expect society/government to take care of all dangers, then turn around and say "I should be able to take whatever I want!" Or to put it more bluntly imagine medicare costs if we legalize all drugs. Imagine the emergency rooms?

aneth 16y ago
I think that people who think this way tend to smoke pot, not the other way around. There are plenty of fully functional pot smokers without conspiracy theories. This is like sitting in a bar listening to the same sob stories repeated week after week at a local dive bar and saying all drinkers are defeatist losers.
- rick888 16y ago
  "I think that people who think this way tend to smoke pot, not the other way around. There are plenty of fully functional pot smokers without conspiracy theories." Smoking pot makes many people paranoid. This is fact. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine that these people are conspiracy theorists. "This is like sitting in a bar listening to the same sob stories repeated week after week at a local dive bar and saying all drinkers are defeatist losers." When you hear the above from many different groups of people in different parts of the US/world that smoke pot, it really makes you wonder.

ChRoss 16y ago

Sorry for my ignorance, since I'm living in Asia, and I have never deal with drugs, so my knowledge are basically from news. How is this Prop19 will 'surely' change everything? Especially related to drug cartel.

eli 16y ago
If people are allowed to buy, sell, and even grow their own drugs legally they will no longer have to participate in a black market that often benefits Mexican drug cartels.
- ChRoss 16y ago
  Well I'm not sure if they can grow it. But, isn't that mean you're going to provide a legal way for the cartel to make money? Now they can sell in legal market, and sure more people will be able to consume it since it's legal now, and the cartel will make 'more' money? My previous question is actually to find out what kind of measurement, precaution or whatever it is, to make sure that Prop19 will cripple drug cartels, without creating another problem.
  - eli 16y ago
    Yes, Prop 19 will let you grow a small amount of marijuana for personal use. But it will certainly never be legal to smuggle drugs across the border. Moreover the profit margins go way down because you are no longer covering the risk of arrest to those growing and supplying the drug.

hasenj 16y ago

> If we are always held back by our own fears and self-limiting beliefs, then we aren't really free. Similarly, if we are controlled by our desires, we're not really free. An addict is not really free because he can't control himself. > Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Drugs are definitely not essential. > prohibition also provides a multi-billion dollar subsidy to violent criminal organizations that threaten our physical safety and security Crime networks exist not because of strong government or strict laws; they exist because of moral corruption in the society. A strong government, strongly connected coherent society with powerful social moral values actually reduce the size and power of crime networks.

Dennis_ 16y ago

Hats off to this fellow for promoting freedom and liberty. I am glad that people are slowly starting to realize we don't have a right to tell others what they can do with their bodies. If 19 passes it will be one tiny prick in the side of the petty tyrants who believe they have a right to force others to follow their views.

stretchwithme 16y ago

Right on. The drug war is a huge waste of money and lives and foreign policy capital. It needs to end. I really feel drug rules (not laws) need to be set at the neighborhood level by simple majority vote. That way you can live where the limits suit you and you don't need to try to control what the whole country does. Freedom is not just about allowing everyone to do anything. Its also about people being able to make the living arrangements that suit them without having to impose their choices upon others. Its too much work anyway, always fighting these battles. Lets call a truce and go our separate ways together.

Mz 16y ago

I don't know what the answer is. But whenever a topic like this comes up, I can't help but think about Prohibition and how it failed to stop people from drinking alcohol and, instead, just created powerful crime lords. Ultimately, it was repealed (but only after Capone and the whole legendary Chicago gangland era).