5 ms·

Damn, I really hope Prop 19 passes. I'm not even American, but a passage would mark the start of the end of the dreadful war on marijuana around the world. Oth

Damn, I really hope Prop 19 passes. I'm not even American, but a passage would mark the start of the end of the dreadful war on marijuana around the world. Other states would follow, then Latin America (the former Mexican President said "May God let it pass" about Prop 19), countries in Europe (Netherlands, Spain, Denmark) and slowly it would be legalized around the world. Defeat would be a major setback. I urge all Californians who're reading this to do their absolute best to make it pass in these last vital days. Join the phone banks, make sure all your friends are voting, campaign at universities. It could make a large difference, larger than you probably think.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
dasht 16y ago
This appears to be roughly how prohibition against alcohol ended in the US: first with essentially universal defiance; then with a popular wink-wink-nod-nod "medical alcohol" exemption of sketchy legality; then with faultering enforcement and inconsistent and imperfect legal codes... and finally repeal. (Of course, for MJ the situation should be simpler because no amendment is needed to the US Constitution to end prohibition... merely an act of Congress.)
- borism 16y ago
  Pot was almost legal in Netherlands since 70s, yet very few countries followed suit. What makes California so special that it will make the end of cannabis prohibition viral? I'm highly skeptical.
  - kristofferR 16y ago
    The feeling about pot has changed a lot in the last 15 years, not just in the US ( http://www.gallup.com/poll/144086/New-High-Americans-Support-Legalizing-Marijuana.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/144086/New-High-Americans-Support... ), but in the rest of the world well. A ton of countries have decriminalized marijuana and other drugs, people are realizing that marijuana isn't the drug of hell it was pitched as and that the war against it has failed. I think it has a lot to do with the internet/information age. Just a couple of years ago the governments could say whatever they wanted and very few people would question their "facts". Now everybody with access to the internet can research the issue themselves.
  - anateus 16y ago
    California is the 6th largest economy in the world, borders with Mexico, and is a pretty large consumer of Marijuana, perhaps one of the world's largest but I have no data on the latter. California legalizing Marijuana for private consumption would deal a strong blow to the cartels. If over several years no ill effects seem to result ("seem" is important, unfortunately) other states, such as Massachusetts, may follow suit. The semi-legalization in the Netherlands and the full legalization in Portugal set good examples, but few places in the world are as prominent as California.
  - Steve0 16y ago
    They de-criminalized it, The Netherlands never 'really' legalized production. The only legal pot growing is done for medicinal cannabis, which is a very marginal market compared to the coffeeshops. The reason was amongst others, that The Netherlands were bound by international treaties to fully legalize and tax it. Prop 19, legalizes the entire supply-chain, which makes it possible to build a legal business on weed. The difference is, that the 'captains of industry' will become part of the establishment, in a while traditional businessmen might even take over. It could be that if California goes well, the same players who were in, let's say, cigarette-companies will step up. They have been thinking about this. Philip morris pantented the brand 'Marley' in France: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-law-is-a-dope-if-they-legalise-marijuana-when-they-legalise-marijuana-who-would-sell-what-to-whom-jerome-burne-cases-the-joint-1405970.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-law-is-a-dope-if...
    - electromagnetic 16y ago
      Tobacco sales would go through the roof over night if it started shipping with MJ in it. I've never been able to get a good high off of a bong or pipe, but mix it with tobacco and I'm set. The interesting thing is that tobacco has no effect on me at all, I've smoked cigarettes and nothing, I often smoke a cigarillo when I'm social drinking with friends who do smoke but my body doesn't seem to get a response. My parents both never smoked, my paternal grand parents didn't smoke (AFAIK) and my maternal grandfather liked the occasional pipe (literally occasional, I never even knew as a child). As far as investigation has gone in my family, no one smokes. Aunts, uncles, cousins, no one. However virtually everyone in my wife's family smokes, my wife doesn't, but if she does have a social smoke I know she struggles with not continuing. The few members of her family who don't smoke have quit. The bizarreness here is that my wife's family tried strongly to stop their children smoking, but my parents didn't try at all. They found out I'd bought a pack of cigarettes one time, but I didn't get them taken off me, I didn't get a lecture, I got nothing. They simply assumed they weren't for me, and they genuinely weren't, my friend asked me to pick them up for when we went out drinking.
- jbooth 16y ago
  "merely" an act of congress? Regarding a policy that's so easy to demagogue with and involves so many social dog whistles? You're dreaming :)
- _delirium 16y ago
  One thing that makes marijuana more complex is that, unlike was the case with alcohol, the prohibition is written into international treaties. Countries could just ignore or withdraw from them, or try to get them modified, but so far none seem to be willing to. Treaty obligations relating to banning marijuana trafficking are one thing that's complicated the Dutch experiment with decriminalization, and led to absurd situations, where coffee-shops selling pot to customers is tolerated, but that pot cannot legally come from anywhere (they cannot grow it, cannot buy it in wholesale quantities, etc.).
  - rdl 16y ago
    The reason other countries won't flout the UN Single Convention and other international treaties is...the US. They don't want to be branded outlaws by the US, with potential sanctions, banking restrictions, etc. Sort of like the ancient Klingon proverb: "only Nixon could go to China", only the US can legalize (vs. merely decriminalize) drugs.
- btilly 16y ago
  Actually the "medical alcohol" exemption was present in the initial legislation and preceded universal defiance. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volstead_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volstead_Act for more.
- farnsworth 16y ago
  It's also more complicated because medical marijuana is actually legit.
fady 16y ago
It's a shame how many good people have had their lives ruined because of our "war on drugs". When prop 19 passes, I hope they pardon some of the people in jail, especially people who have never had a record, besides their pot offense
- usaar333 16y ago
  1) Marijuana is an infraction today in California. You can't go to jail for possession. 2) I'd be amazed to find someone in California who's life is actively being ruined due to a possession offense. Any conviction older than 2 years cannot be asked about for employment purposes.
  - kristofferR 16y ago
    1. Not true. If you're possessing too much, you're considered a dealer. 2. If you get caught with weed you'll lose your college grant and loans, essentially making it impossible for a lot of great, hard working people, to get a college degree just because they're caught with some weed. Taking away the right to higher education just because of a small possession case is downright inhumane. Not even rapers and murders lose their college grants and loans.
    - usaar333 16y ago
      On #2, will the law change this? I was aware that the grants are controlled by federal law (where marijuana would still be illegal)
  - fady 16y ago
    Correct, but I clearly did not say for possession. I personally know a grower who had his house rated, and was sent to jail for 6 years. Reason: he had too many plants. Good people should not go to jail for this, aftermath: he lost his house in a sheriff's sale, his kid was taken away. I'm sure you can find 100 of cases where peoples lives were ruined in their own way, not necessarily yours.
    - 16y ago
s3graham 16y ago
Won't anyone think of the poor Canadians in the Kootenays? http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/10/27/bc-california-proposition-marijuana.html http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/10/27/b...
sigzero 16y ago
From everything I have read recently it is going downhill. I agree that it should be medically legal. I do not agree that it should be legal for general consumption.
- pstuart 16y ago
  If you're not trolling I'd love to hear why. I've yet to hear a cogent reason that supports your opinion.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

dasht 16y ago

This appears to be roughly how prohibition against alcohol ended in the US: first with essentially universal defiance; then with a popular wink-wink-nod-nod "medical alcohol" exemption of sketchy legality; then with faultering enforcement and inconsistent and imperfect legal codes... and finally repeal. (Of course, for MJ the situation should be simpler because no amendment is needed to the US Constitution to end prohibition... merely an act of Congress.)

borism 16y ago
Pot was almost legal in Netherlands since 70s, yet very few countries followed suit. What makes California so special that it will make the end of cannabis prohibition viral? I'm highly skeptical.
- kristofferR 16y ago
  The feeling about pot has changed a lot in the last 15 years, not just in the US ( http://www.gallup.com/poll/144086/New-High-Americans-Support-Legalizing-Marijuana.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/144086/New-High-Americans-Support... ), but in the rest of the world well. A ton of countries have decriminalized marijuana and other drugs, people are realizing that marijuana isn't the drug of hell it was pitched as and that the war against it has failed. I think it has a lot to do with the internet/information age. Just a couple of years ago the governments could say whatever they wanted and very few people would question their "facts". Now everybody with access to the internet can research the issue themselves.
- anateus 16y ago
  California is the 6th largest economy in the world, borders with Mexico, and is a pretty large consumer of Marijuana, perhaps one of the world's largest but I have no data on the latter. California legalizing Marijuana for private consumption would deal a strong blow to the cartels. If over several years no ill effects seem to result ("seem" is important, unfortunately) other states, such as Massachusetts, may follow suit. The semi-legalization in the Netherlands and the full legalization in Portugal set good examples, but few places in the world are as prominent as California.
- Steve0 16y ago
  They de-criminalized it, The Netherlands never 'really' legalized production. The only legal pot growing is done for medicinal cannabis, which is a very marginal market compared to the coffeeshops. The reason was amongst others, that The Netherlands were bound by international treaties to fully legalize and tax it. Prop 19, legalizes the entire supply-chain, which makes it possible to build a legal business on weed. The difference is, that the 'captains of industry' will become part of the establishment, in a while traditional businessmen might even take over. It could be that if California goes well, the same players who were in, let's say, cigarette-companies will step up. They have been thinking about this. Philip morris pantented the brand 'Marley' in France: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-law-is-a-dope-if-they-legalise-marijuana-when-they-legalise-marijuana-who-would-sell-what-to-whom-jerome-burne-cases-the-joint-1405970.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-law-is-a-dope-if...
  - electromagnetic 16y ago
    Tobacco sales would go through the roof over night if it started shipping with MJ in it. I've never been able to get a good high off of a bong or pipe, but mix it with tobacco and I'm set. The interesting thing is that tobacco has no effect on me at all, I've smoked cigarettes and nothing, I often smoke a cigarillo when I'm social drinking with friends who do smoke but my body doesn't seem to get a response. My parents both never smoked, my paternal grand parents didn't smoke (AFAIK) and my maternal grandfather liked the occasional pipe (literally occasional, I never even knew as a child). As far as investigation has gone in my family, no one smokes. Aunts, uncles, cousins, no one. However virtually everyone in my wife's family smokes, my wife doesn't, but if she does have a social smoke I know she struggles with not continuing. The few members of her family who don't smoke have quit. The bizarreness here is that my wife's family tried strongly to stop their children smoking, but my parents didn't try at all. They found out I'd bought a pack of cigarettes one time, but I didn't get them taken off me, I didn't get a lecture, I got nothing. They simply assumed they weren't for me, and they genuinely weren't, my friend asked me to pick them up for when we went out drinking.
jbooth 16y ago
"merely" an act of congress? Regarding a policy that's so easy to demagogue with and involves so many social dog whistles? You're dreaming :)
_delirium 16y ago
One thing that makes marijuana more complex is that, unlike was the case with alcohol, the prohibition is written into international treaties. Countries could just ignore or withdraw from them, or try to get them modified, but so far none seem to be willing to. Treaty obligations relating to banning marijuana trafficking are one thing that's complicated the Dutch experiment with decriminalization, and led to absurd situations, where coffee-shops selling pot to customers is tolerated, but that pot cannot legally come from anywhere (they cannot grow it, cannot buy it in wholesale quantities, etc.).
- rdl 16y ago
  The reason other countries won't flout the UN Single Convention and other international treaties is...the US. They don't want to be branded outlaws by the US, with potential sanctions, banking restrictions, etc. Sort of like the ancient Klingon proverb: "only Nixon could go to China", only the US can legalize (vs. merely decriminalize) drugs.
btilly 16y ago
Actually the "medical alcohol" exemption was present in the initial legislation and preceded universal defiance. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volstead_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volstead_Act for more.
farnsworth 16y ago
It's also more complicated because medical marijuana is actually legit.

fady 16y ago

It's a shame how many good people have had their lives ruined because of our "war on drugs". When prop 19 passes, I hope they pardon some of the people in jail, especially people who have never had a record, besides their pot offense

usaar333 16y ago
1) Marijuana is an infraction today in California. You can't go to jail for possession. 2) I'd be amazed to find someone in California who's life is actively being ruined due to a possession offense. Any conviction older than 2 years cannot be asked about for employment purposes.
- kristofferR 16y ago
  1. Not true. If you're possessing too much, you're considered a dealer. 2. If you get caught with weed you'll lose your college grant and loans, essentially making it impossible for a lot of great, hard working people, to get a college degree just because they're caught with some weed. Taking away the right to higher education just because of a small possession case is downright inhumane. Not even rapers and murders lose their college grants and loans.
  - usaar333 16y ago
    On #2, will the law change this? I was aware that the grants are controlled by federal law (where marijuana would still be illegal)
- fady 16y ago
  Correct, but I clearly did not say for possession. I personally know a grower who had his house rated, and was sent to jail for 6 years. Reason: he had too many plants. Good people should not go to jail for this, aftermath: he lost his house in a sheriff's sale, his kid was taken away. I'm sure you can find 100 of cases where peoples lives were ruined in their own way, not necessarily yours.
  - 16y ago

s3graham 16y ago

Won't anyone think of the poor Canadians in the Kootenays? http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/10/27/bc-california-proposition-marijuana.html http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/10/27/b...

sigzero 16y ago

From everything I have read recently it is going downhill. I agree that it should be medically legal. I do not agree that it should be legal for general consumption.

pstuart 16y ago
If you're not trolling I'd love to hear why. I've yet to hear a cogent reason that supports your opinion.