15 ms·

Why Standing Desks Are Overrated

193 points by mistersquid 8y ago

sigfubar 8y ago
The author's bigotry is showing in spades. I don't care if standing all day long is "associated with lower socioeconomic status". Standing makes me feel better, improves my posture, and takes away all the literal physical pains associated with sitting. If this makes me similar to a person working in retail, so be it. Am I supposed to be ashamed of our shared fundamental humanity too?
- justanegg 8y ago
  socioeconomics shouldn't factor into this, only the wellbeing of the individual. terrible journalism again.
- detaro 8y ago
  I think you completely misunderstood the point of that sentence.
- yeutterg 8y ago
  "Standing makes me feel better, improves my posture, and takes away all the literal physical pains associated with sitting." This. After using a standing desk for a few years, I only occasionally want to sit (like 5% of the time). And I generally regret it after about 20-30 minutes. I see a lot of standing desk users with improper monitor or keyboard height, and I think this hurts standing desks' reputation. If these are not correct, you will get neck and/or lower back pain if you use the desk long enough. Unfortunately, it can be pricey to have a workstation that is ergonomically correct for you, because the keyboard to monitor height distance is much greater in a standing configuration vs. sitting. Convertible options tend to be expensive. Having a cushy floor mat also makes a huge difference.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    I think a lot of sitting desk users also have improper monitor or keyboard height, and many (most, anecdotally) people have atrocious posture. This probably explains a lot of why sitting has a negative reputation. Personally, standing all day makes my feet tired & sore. I much prefer a well set-up sitting workstation and regular walking breaks.
- LibsAreRetarded 8y ago
  It seems like you grossly misread the point the article was making there. People of lower socio-economic status have worse health outcomes not because of their sitting or standing, but because of more unhealthy behaviors on average and the fact that its harder for them to access quality healthcare in general. So if you found the population of standers was just as healthy as the population of sitters, despite the fact that the standers have less money, that would be an argument in favor of standing, not against it.
- JshWright 8y ago
  There is no "bigotry" there... It is an objective fact that (especially in the US) lower socioeconomic status is higher correlated with worse health outcomes. The author is pointing out one of the possible methodological flaws in studies evaluating the health impact of standing while working (i.e. by selecting for folks who stand at work, they are _also_ selecting for people of lower socioeconomic status, and it's likely the socioeconomic factors outweigh the sitting/standing distinction in terms of health).
bpicolo 8y ago
Best strategy is just drinking enough that you need to hit the restroom with reasonable frequency. You stay hydrated and get well-timed walking/headspace breaks. Win-win.
- aj_g 8y ago
  This is my strategy as well. Keep a Nalgene topped up with water and pee like 10 times a day. Coworkers might raise an eyebrow, but who cares. It works great because of the power of habit--it's easy to sip a little bit of water every few minutes, and then of course you're forced to get up and move around/pee when the urge is strong enough.
  - deleted 8y ago
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  - asdff 8y ago
    I used to do this but meetings became unbearable with the urge to pee striking every hour.
- malnourish 8y ago
  Anecdotal, but be wary. I drank a lot of water for a long time (120+ ounces a day of water, plus whatever else I would drink). I was constantly thirsty and was worried I had diabetes. It turns out I was drinking _too_ much water and was flushing out valuable electrolytes from my system. Drinking less paradoxically left me feeling quenched, but it took a doctor's visit and blood work to resolve.
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    Indeed, you have to be careful not to overdose on water. More people die from too much water than too little.
    - bpicolo 8y ago
      You don't need to be particularly careful. Apparently, the stats show the vast majority of deaths from overhydration in normal individuals are the result of water-drinking contests or exercise-related overhydration in ultramarathons and similar
iosDrone 8y ago
Treadmill desks are superior.
hmuskat 8y ago
I suspect people aren't going to read the entire article or are going to be put off by the rather aggressively-opinionated title. I was expecting a more extreme conclusion than: - Sitting all day isn't great, but just sitting won't kill you - Standing all day isn't great, but just standing won't kill you - Standing isn't exercise - As long as you exercise and take breaks during the work day, it doesn't really matter if you sit or stand
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  The last point is not mentioned in the article at all.
  - jboy55 8y ago
    It is, "Too much sitting over the course of a day is not healthy — let’s be clear. And as I’ve written before, exercise is the closest thing to a wonder drug. Few things provide such a health benefit."
robotmay 8y ago
Well, obviously it's not a replacement for exercise. Was anyone ever claiming that? Because I'd think it's fairly obvious that standing still doesn't exactly burn the calories off. The key is moderation, like with everything. Alternate between sitting and standing. This past year I've started to get problems with my legs caused by sitting. Exercise relieves it, but the aches return when I sit down again. I just spend too much time sitting down (I work remotely as a programmer, and I'm also a musician). Swapping to alternating sitting/standing makes a big difference in this regard, and I had hoped to get a new desk 6 months ago, but due to house purchase trouble (and the fact my flat is too small to swap out this desk); I'm still stuck at my current desk. Hopefully it won't be too much longer now; I do worry what permanent damage is happening. Sit/stand desks have an added bonus of letting you adjust the height of the desk when sat down, which makes a big difference. Chair choice is a big part of it. I do think pretty much all office chairs are designed wrong, in that they have a solid base and a cushion on top. Once you bottom-out (hurr) the cushion, you're sat on a hard surface, and that's most likely part of my issue. Aeron chairs are good in this regard, in that they're a suspended mesh with no hard surface underneath. I quite like sitting on the floor as well, and I'm hoping to accommodate for that in my office design for my house. I think a wider variety of positions could only help to spread the strain.
- sithadmin 8y ago
  >due to house purchase trouble (and the fact my flat is too small to swap out this desk); I'm still stuck at my current desk. Have you considered a standing desk converter for your existing desk (e.g. from Varidesk, though there are quite a few other vendors out there with more reasonable pricing)? It's made a huge difference for me in some situations where the existing desk could not be swapped out.
  - mdekkers 8y ago
    Have you considered a standing desk converter for your existing desk When I wanted to try a standing desk, I just put my desk on some breezeblocks...
- anonymousDan 8y ago
WhompingWindows 8y ago
This article is by a pediatrician, not a physical therapist or a subject matter expert. The article basically consists of the author pointing to some studies on the subject and concluding that there's not yet definitive, decisive evidence as to the long-term benefits of standing desks. Anyone who reads about standing desks knew that already. And, as someone who is known amongst friends and colleagues for using one, I've had numerous cases of people saying "Welp WhompingWindows, your standing desk is pointless, I saw a buzzfeed article about how a single study from North Dakota State said they're not great." The title of this post and the the title of the article are not justified. The author's take-home in the final paragraph is that standing is not exercise, but standing desks may help those with back or neck pain and some people just prefer it. So, really, there's no evidence here to support the "Overrated" claim in the headline. Like every post I see on standing desks, or anything with a controversial/contentious set of studies/proponents, each writer can select whichever set of studies from the vast array that conforms to their viewpoint. Those studies that disagree with the final conclusion? Better point out potential confounders, non-causal links, selection bias, etc. Drag out the usual methodological suspects to invalidate an opinion you don't agree with. It's easy to straw-man, though it's also easy to go to the discussion and just copy the authors' own assessment of their studys' weaknesses. This happens all the time in science like epidemiology, you're not an epidemiologist if you haven't made a dozen complaints about an article's methods before considering its ramifications. Even Einstein - despite the evidence to the contrary, he could not accept some of the quantum-mechanical conclusions that his work helped bring about.
- thanosnose 8y ago
  It's clickbait "news" and "studies". So much of the media and "science" is useless people doing useless nonsense just to make money. "Why you shouldn't work remotely". "Why you shouldn't drink coffee". "Why you should drink coffee". "Vaping is better than cigarettes". "Vaping worse than cigarettes". It's a never ending assembly line of garbage because they need to push out garbage every day. "Publish or perish" has ruined academia, much of science and the media. Also, anything can be "overrated". It is a subjective term. The article doesn't tell us anything of any value. What did we learn? Someone thinks standing desks are overrated. Okay. Who cares? Is that worthy of an article in the nytimes?
malnourish 8y ago
Interesting. I'm always a fan of research challenging wisdom, although I'm not sure who really thought standing alone was exercise. I've found greatly improved comfort with my standing desk at work and I want to upgrade my home desk once I move. I hope that the lack of evidence for specific health improvements doesn't encourage companies to stop offering the desks.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  I'm waiting for the desks with integrated threadmill and bicycle. Ooof, apparently no one wants sweaty and loud coworkers.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    Treadmill desks are already a Thing. Haven't seen one in a big corporate office, yet, however.
    - davio 8y ago
      I've seen some in offices, but they are shared resources that you can use as needed instead of someone's permanent desk.
    - PascLeRasc 8y ago
      Ironically, the NYT has one: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/treadmill-desk-office.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/t...
      - malnourish 8y ago
        Maybe not ironic, since walking is exercise :-)
  - malnourish 8y ago
    If they can solve head and arm bob, I'm all in.
LibsAreRetarded 8y ago
Zero-gravity desks and treadmill desks have both always seemed like more promising options to me.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  What is a zero-gravity desk?
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    Maybe something like this: https://mashable.com/2015/10/28/altwork-station-laying-down/#Iw8wzWl5diq6 https://mashable.com/2015/10/28/altwork-station-laying-down/...
    - LibsAreRetarded 8y ago
      Yes, exactly.
antoineMoPa 8y ago
My main motivation for buying a standing desk would be saving my back from constant pressure. CTRL+F "back" in this article tells me that the author did not care at all about back problems and thought people bought standing desks to exercise. I already exercise in my spare time and commutes.
- samastur 8y ago
  Maybe read the article next time. He says standing may help those with lower back and neck pain problems.
  - antoineMoPa 8y ago
    I read this exact part. Who does not suffer back pain after hours of sitting? If it does not hurt, does it mean it is still good to be sitting all the time? no. The author sounds like back pain is not a typical problem and that exercise is a huge part of the reason people use standing desks.
    - cletus 8y ago
      Who doesn't? Me, for a start. I've honestly never understood the standing desk thing. I mean if it alleviates back pain or just makes you happy, sure. Why not? It's not a given that everyone suffers back or neck pain from sitting though.
      - senorjazz 8y ago
        sample size of one, but I have suffered lower back pain for about 15 years. It is always there, but worse some times than others. When it is bad, I cannot sit in the chair for more than a couple of minutes. Standing at the desk (well a box on a desk that my laptop goes on) the pain is reduced so can at least get a days work done.
      - jboy55 8y ago
        Raises hand, another one who's back doesn't hurt while sitting.
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dana321 8y ago
There are benefits to standing, for one is increased strength in the legs - just try it, it is a workout and you do burn more calories standing up than sitting down. Increased cognitive ability is another benefit, due to the increased blood flow. I think alternating is great, its what i tend to do.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  1) Show me that study. Also, varicose veins suggest otherwise. Good muscle tone helps to prevent them. Apparently standing does not provide the right impulse. Yes, you will burn slightly more calories but at what cost? 2) This is even more out there and suspicious claim. Varicose veins form out of impaired blood flow, not improved. 3) Do you mean situps? I heard they are an actual exercise.
- krooj 8y ago
  The benefits of a standing desk are junk if taken on their own. Standing for extended periods is bad for you, just as is sitting all the time. Your calf muscles behave as a pump for getting blood back to your heart, so when all you do is stand, that pump isn't activated and blood will pool. Just ask people that need to stand for a living. This isn't a simple solution: our bodies are meant to move, and extended sitting or standing isn't natural.
gunnarde 8y ago
"Sit-stand desks are not exactly inexpensive, but like many things in life, they’re fine if you like them. And if it helps alleviate some back and neck pain, so much the better. It’s just that most people probably don’t need them." TL:DR
40acres 8y ago
If you occasionally come by the lastest findings in research, as one is want to do on HackerNews, and have also sat center court at a tennis match, you'll realize that both experiences are pretty much the same. I don't know if this is the replication crisis rearing it's head or not, but being a casual observer of research is too much of a roller coaster for me to try to "optimize" my life based on the latest findings. In reality, it seems there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to a general guide to live well: try to get a good night's sleep, abstain from drugs if you can, eat healthy foods while maintaining a slight calorie defecit, and get some exercise every once in a while. Outside of that it seems like you're playing with margins.
devinhelton 8y ago
So does the New York Times owe an apology and a correction for this article? "Sitting, it would seem, is an independent pathology. Being sedentary for nine hours a day at the office is bad for your health whether you go home and watch television afterward or hit the gym. It is bad whether you are morbidly obese or marathon-runner thin. “Excessive sitting,” Dr. Levine says, “is a lethal activity.”" https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t.... And this one? "Too much time spent in a chair could shorten our lives, even if we exercise" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/well/move/get-up-stand-up.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/well/move/get-up-stand-up... I just find it disconcerting that the New York Times publishes an article like this, without any acknowledgement that it has been pushing a different conclusion for the past eight years. I get that that this article is from a different author, but when people go to the New York Times, they are usually trusting the overall institution and editorial controls more than the byline. I also get that new studies comes in and the evidence changes -- but that still requires some sort of acknowledgement that they were wrong before.
appsonify 8y ago
Oh man...these type of overreaching opinions is bound to be controversial. I bought a standing desk because my ass hurts from sitting down too long and I don't have a lot of flesh down there. I have to use a cushion and eventually that also puts pressure on my back and my ass still hurts. So I bought a manually operated standing desk on Amazon.ca in order to not hurt my ass from sitting down too long. Also not good for your prostate health to be sitting down for hours at a time. But please convince me why I shouldn't stop the pain in the ass.
keymone 8y ago
The sitting desks are overrated. There is not enough evidence to support the claim that sitting desks improve health. Sitting desks are a ploy by chair manufacturing industry to make you buy expensive chairs even though all experts agree that sitting does not replace exercise.
josefresco 8y ago
My wife and I who both work at our desks, on computers for a significant portion of the work day, use "ball chairs": https://www.gaiam.com/products/classic-balance-ball-chair?variant=32936592129 https://www.gaiam.com/products/classic-balance-ball-chair?va... These chairs have helped with my leg and foot numbness/cold issues. I couldn't imagine working at a standing desk on days when my energy isn't 100% - which as a father and business owner is like ... every day. Note: I am in no way affiliated with Gaiam - but given how many clients ask about my chair ... I should!
supergeek133 8y ago
Haha. So I have a standing desk at work and at home, I do it because it keeps me much more alert, and helps with my back not hurting after sitting for 8 hours. I don't get how we always go back to debating the medical merits of this, when why don't we just worry about what makes the employee more comfortable? Expense wise, an average standing desk isn't terribly more expensive than a normal desk OR some of the chairs companies are buying for people to be more ergonomic.
- JamesBarney 8y ago
  Because I constantly see arguments that sat "you should use a standing desk because sitting is killing you". And not so many "you should try a standing desk, some people think they're more comfortable".
  - asdff 8y ago
    Because people get bored reading articles with neutral tone. We are talking about a choice of desk, after all. Extremes in language are much more satisfying to read, consciously or not, and the ad money proves this.
mixmastamyk 8y ago
I believe standing at times during the day is useful for the bones, and never really considered it "exercise," at least not the strenuous kind. One thing I notice though is that folks often push very expensive powered desks that are not necessary. I've been using a relatively cheap drafting table and tall chair with armrests for years and think it is a great way to go. One can stand or sit during the day according to need.
zhte415 8y ago
I've seen a great connection between how happy people feel about their workspaces and how happy they feel they are in are them, physically and mentally. When on-boarding in my first regular job, we received a couple of hours training in how to adjust you chair from the health-and-safety manager. Fantastic training, him spinning around a chair showing how everything can be adapted, optimal eye, leg, waist, elbow height, the company gym instructor visiting demonstrating cases of how necks can get bent forward just by looking at a screen for a couple of years, the company doctor telling stories of the results of not complaining about feeling uncomfortable, and the lawyer telling us that this advice is useful coz we're giving it to you now, don't forget it. I've worked in a lot of other places since. Some have been more haphazard/freedom-giving in implementing a comfortable desk and I'm a fan of that: Put a stack of paper under the monitor. Have a footrest instead of adjusting the chair. Bring in a fishtank and have some (real) fish (not a screensaver) swimming past you while you work, go to the gym for an hour when there aren't meetings, lots of plants, do a standing desk on empty paper boxes, bring a camping bed to store under your desk and take a nap after lunch on it. Pretty free workspaces. What I've seen work, and not work, and work better, and this is complete anecdote: Colleagues that have the training to have been informed of best practices, and have an idea of the optimal 'springiness' setting to set their chair to have fun with their chair have freedom with their chair. Companies that do that then then also allow their employees to choose how to setup their environment are more productive, committed and a lot happier. Open-office environments are actually OK for this. But not hot-desking ones. Feeding your fish is 2-3 minutes of not staring at a screen or typing, refreshment. Knowing the cleaner will throwaway a present for a colleague if you're not cleaned your desk in the evening is a prison. Having plenty of small meeting rooms available can provide peace and privacy. And a quick nap on a colleague's borrowed camping bed when you're in for a long day, is bliss.
projectramo 8y ago
I think I see the problem here (with the comments). The main problem is that in order to claim something is "overrated", you have to have some idea of the "rating." So perhaps most of the other commenters were enlightened and knew exactly what the benefits were. Not me. Like (perhaps) the author, I thought sitting is really, really bad for you: for your heart, for your long term mobility, for your health. And that standing will alleviate these issues. Under my model, it wasn't just that moving was good and not moving was bad. I thought that specifically sitting was the worst form of non-movement (over lying down and standing). I can't tell you where I got this but I had read a lot of "sitting is the new smoking" type articles. Now this author tells me that is not the case, and there was no proof of it being the case. This is news to me. I had the correct "rating" for this article and it turns out I had "overrated" standing desks. If you already know all this, then of course it was not "overrated" for you.
- Forbo 8y ago
  Your comment reminds me of the narrator's struggle to define "Quality" in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
- amoorthy 8y ago
  Ask and ye shall receive. Article has a 77 OwlFactor rating: https://news.owlfactor.com/article/0-4279868/4279868-Why%20Standing%20Desks%20A?u=A15BBC88-5005-4360-9052-4813D0A22883 https://news.owlfactor.com/article/0-4279868/4279868-Why%20S... :)
- deanCommie 8y ago
  I think the premise of the article/implication is we went from "Sitting is the new smoking" ("and therefore you should quit - by Standing more" => "Standing is the new nicorette") to "Standing is the new Penicillin! If you accept the premise, the headline and conclusion makes sense. Standing ISN'T a replacement for exercise. There are ways to stand that will cause independent medical issues in joints. But, like you, I'm also dubious of the premise. While standing (or actually adjustable) desks are all the rage, I don't see an obsession over the concept approaching other overrated cults like crossfit, or keto.
charlesju 8y ago
I use a standing desk and my primary purposes are to keep myself more alert and to alleviate back pain. It is the single biggest improvement to back pain that I have found. As for health, like the article says, the most important things are keep up a good diet (eat just enough, eat as many whole foods as possible, vary what you eat) and exercise. I also would like to recommend https://fluidstance.com/ https://fluidstance.com/ which is a board that wobbles to go with a standing desk. This has further improved the benefits to my back and general alertness while working.
mistersquid 8y ago
Because I disagreed with the conclusions of the article, I submitted this article to the HN community for assessment. Many of the responses here call into question the article's apparent position, especially as regards its inflammatory title, and these responses reflect my own opinion and experience. I expressed my objections as a comment to the article, reproduced here for convenience. [0] > I've been a long distance runner all my life, hovering at a 7:30 pace. In my mid 40s I began getting pain in my legs while running. Increasingly, I could not run more than 3 miles at a time without injuring. My pace went to 8:30 or slower. > Almost 2 years ago, I went to physical therapy and my doctor prescribed a standing desk. 1 hour standing; 1 hour sitting. > Part of the problem according to my doctor is that my legs were tightening while sitting. Intermittently standing and stretching was not enough to offset what sitting was doing to my leg and back muscles. > Since receiving a standing accessory at work and acquiring a motorized desk at home, my injuries have disappeared. > Of course the stretching exercises I continue to do as directed by my physical therapist help. But stretching by itself did not work as I grew older. > The combination of stretching exercise and alternating standing and sitting afforded by a standing desk has helped me recover from my injuries. > My running pace has hit 7:20 and declining. > Dismissing the potential benefit of standing desk as an expensive luxury is about as advisable as dismissing a doctor's visit as unnecessary use of health care. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/upshot/why-standing-desks-are-overrated.html#commentsContainer&permid=29452335 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/upshot/why-standing-desks...
- jboy55 8y ago
  The article that you are commenting on specifically states that standing desks aren't an improvement for cardiovascular health. The article also states that standing desks can help ergonomic issues. The article you posted shows that a standing desk can help ergonomic issues, it doesn't mention cardiovascular health.
  - mistersquid 8y ago
    You are right that the article clarifies the lack of relationship between cardiovascular health and standing. My point is that for me the two are interlinked. I could not run due to musculoskeletal issues from sitting. Being able to alternate between standing and sitting addressed these issues and allowed me to resume (improve) my running. I don’t have enough expertise to evaluate if the studies cited by the author account for the relatonship between ergonomics (musculoskeletal effects) and cardiovascular health, but I do believe in my specific case the two are inextricably linked. EDIT: spelling
netcan 8y ago
You know what the problem with problems is? I'll tell you the problem with problems... :) Imagine Jules. Jules likes to put her laptop on the counter and work standing for an hour after lunch, while having her coffee. ...helps her digestion, or neck or something.. Personally, I like standing and/or walking while working too. I think better, it feels like. I like walking meetings, especially if we're going to be scheming. Anyway... Jules has a laptop, a counter and she can stand if she likes. The problem (with problems) is that we^ can't live with "Jules likes X." X must be a universal truth, transformational but as yet undiscovered... something worthy of TedX. In comes corporate and bureaucratic fact-finding, maybe some pseudo-science. Occasionally actual science weighs in, but those assholes always seem to hedge with fancy "maybes" and "more studies required." So, we create some corporate truth, a way for Jules to stand up with official, legible backing. It's the same HN debate we keep having about open offices. We can't keep it at "I like/dislike this thing," thing must be quantifiably better. Not all the decisions we make are factual. ^We means: HN, HR, OHS, furniture manufacturers, ergonomics auditors, techchrunch...
- jm__87 8y ago
  Thanks. I stopped reading the article here: > Research, however, suggests that warnings about sitting at work are overblown, and that standing desks are overrated as a way to improve health. Who cares what research says. If someone says it helps them and they prefer it to sitting, that is enough proof for me.
  - savanaly 8y ago
    By that logic, I guess homeopathy is also perfectly proven as effective?
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sbhn 8y ago
I stand 3 hours a day on the busses and trains trying to keep balance to and from work, I can’t wait to sit down when I finally get the chance.
PascLeRasc 8y ago
In case anyone wants a different position on standing desks from another NYTer: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/treadmill-desk-office.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/t...
- jboy55 8y ago
  That's a treadmill desk... I really think this comment section is just people reading the article as "Standing desks are bad" and posting any positive thing about standing desks. The article is, "Standing desks, by themselves, (no treadmill), provide no cardiovascular benefit. In terms of cardiovascular health, sitting maybe a marker not a cause." That is, people who sit 12 hours a day on average, typically don't exercise and have poor cardio health. Simply standing instead of sitting won't help that, you have to exercise.
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nimbius 8y ago
Coming from a blue collar job (I work as an engine repair mechanic) ive never understood standing desks. most of the articles are right up there with either crystal chakra magic or "our ancesters were healthier!" crap. I stand 6-8 hours a day. so do most of my coworkers. Simple observation of a chubby mechanic or a fat construction worker will tell you that the "standing desks are healthier" line is complete bullshit.
- tuukkah 8y ago
  Umm, sitting kills. The idea is that a standing desk can let you live longer whatever your body formation.
  - dugdun 8y ago
    I don't think that it's sitting that kills. I think it's more the fact that you are less active. You can have the same problem standing all day without moving around.
    - tuukkah 8y ago
      So either sitting kills by itself and standing up is enough to avoid it, or sitting kills by taking time from being physically active and it's not enough to stand up (which also takes time from being physically active). Here's some brand-new research based on 1000 people wearing accelerometers 24/7: http://epublications.uef.fi/pub/urn_isbn_978-952-61-2928-0/index_en.html http://epublications.uef.fi/pub/urn_isbn_978-952-61-2928-0/i... Sedentary behaviour, physical activity, and risk of coronary artery disease and diabetes mellitus "From the accelerometer-derived parameters of SB [sedentary behaviour], a higher number of daily SB bouts lasting over 10 minutes was the strongest predictor of a high CVD [cardiovascular disease] risk."
- vhost- 8y ago
  Claims of the health benefits of standing desks are not about weight loss. I don't think I've seen that claimed at all. Claims I've seen most often are back related, blood pooling related, and cardiovascular/blood circulation. The jury is still out, but subjectively, switching to a standing desk at least a few times a week really helped my posture and back.
simonsarris 8y ago
I dislike standing desks but I sincerely recommend trying the following: Buy yoga pants (lulu mens pants look good enough that I wear them for almost everything), take off your shoes, and sit like you used to sit when you were a kid: Sit cross legged, sit on your legs, sit 'normally', and let yourself move around and change positions and fidget naturally. Over time I have found this much more intuitively comfortable than a sitting or standing desk, and being able to fidget more easily helps me think, just like going for walks helps me think. Point being: try stuff out! Maybe you'll find something more comfortable than the status quo, faddish or not.
incadenza 8y ago
This just in! Standing is not exercise. I’m glad we cleared up this hotly debated topic.
khalll 8y ago
Overrated? Just plain stupid.
jackconnor 8y ago
Their results are that standing desks help with back problems, but don't provide cardiovascular exercise - yea, not shit. This is exactly what everyone thought, so I have no idea why this click-baity article exists. Standing desks don't cure cancer, they don't stop baldness, and they won't do anything for your allergies either, I'm shocked they didn't include these as reasons standing desks are "overrated".
vemv 8y ago
At work, I hate sitting (despite owning a couple very specific chairs that I'm actually comfortably in) and I also hate standing. Both seem to keep my body/mind tense - which is at odds with the deep focusing/relaxation I need for working on creative solutions for long stretches of time. Very recently I discovered the wonders of beanbags, reclinable armchairs, and so on. I might even try a hammock one day. All these mix well with wireless keyboard/trackpad + a projector. Looking forward to build my next-gen home office in this style (current sofa/projector combo is just me squatting the office event room).
- asdff 8y ago
  How do you deal with sleeping? Every time I sit somewhere with my head supported, I begin to drift off. Doesn't matter if I slept in, or if I've had two cups of coffee. If my head is stabilized, it's over for me.
  - vemv 8y ago
    Ha ha, sounds like a good problem to have :) Can't help sadly, generally computers will leave me well awake for at least a couple hours since the moment I'm done.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
swerveonem 8y ago
Standing desks might be but adjustable desks are not. Who wants their neck at the same angle all day everyday for years?
passwordreset 8y ago
I have a standing desk. I've heard about how stupid standing desks were, so I went out and bought a highchair. Now I can sit at my desk like a normal person. Thanks, New York Times!
sudovancity 8y ago
I mean, it's ok for people to like something and others to not like it. Some people like to stand and some people don't.
Lio 8y ago
By chance the treadmill to go with my sit/stand desk arrived today. Having used a height adjustable desk some years ago I'd sort of written them off. I can't use one all day on its own, I find the blood just pools in my legs after a while and I just want to sit down. Equally though I've also suffered sciatica in the past which I attribute to sitting for hours and hour before a log commute driving. It was agony. So to break things up I've got my own treadmill desk for my home office. I'm walking right now as I type this. I can feel that my heart rate is definitely slightly raised but not so much I"m likely to start sweating. All in all seems pretty good so far.
choot 8y ago
I work remote. And i lay in bed most of the times. Somtimes, I am laying in the bathtub with a coke and completing projects on my Dell XPS16 running Debian. I never felt the need to sit or stand.
apl002 8y ago
i just like them cause they are a good change of pace for comfort. If im working on code for 5+ hrs, my butt/back gets sore from sitting for so long. Switching to standing for an hour or so allows me to grind longer. In no way do i think that im somehow being healthier for standing
madmax108 8y ago
I do not see why it has to ever be an all or nothing when it comes to desks. At work, we have adjustable desks, which can electronically be adjusted to sitting or standing positions. I alternate between sitting and standing every hour or so, combined with small walks around office between shifting positions (say to the cafeteria or washroom or the game room). When I get off my desk, I make it a point to focus on some point far away to ensure my eyes get a break from simply staring at a screen 2 feet away from me. Combining this along with ensuring I consume enough water through the course of the day (in AC environments, a very common cause of headaches/neckaches is simply dehydration) means I can ensure that I get to operate productively through the day. Don't see why people get so paranoid about having to be in a single position for 8 hours a day. The human body simply ain't made for that!
anon2775 8y ago
Standing desks should come with anti-fatigue mats like most restaurants have.
PhrosTT 8y ago
Sitting shortens your hip flexors over time. This causes lower back pain.
MarkMc 8y ago
Standing seems to burn about 50 calories per hour more than sitting [0] and walking burns about 80 calories per mile [1]. So wouldn't a first approximation for the benefits of standing an extra 5 hours per day be the same as walking 3 miles per day? [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24532996 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24532996 [1] https://www.verywellfit.com/walking-calories-burned-by-miles-3887154 https://www.verywellfit.com/walking-calories-burned-by-miles...
TheBeardKing 8y ago
>For convenience and comfort, it’s nice to have options if you have various aches and pains — “Alternating standing and sitting while using a computer may be useful for some people with low back or neck pain,” he said — but people shouldn’t be under the illusion that they’re getting exercise. Yeah and how do many people get to having back and neck pain? From sitting all day! Talk to any spine specialist and they'll tell you that. Since I switched to standing most of the day my pain is definitely reduced, and I know I'm burning more calories because I often incorporate more movements than I would typically do sitting. I stretch more often, do a yoga position, whatever, the point is that incorporating movement is much more likely when you're already standing.
sytelus 8y ago
The article is quite misleading IMO. It cites bunch of studies which directly conflicts with headline and the author just brushes them off. For other studies which mildly agrees with title, author overblows its important. For example, one study says: standing or walking for more than six hours a day at work was associated with a doubled or tripled risk of needing surgery Note that it's 6 hours of standing! Also, important to remember that these are correlation studies meaning that surveyors (I refuse to call them "scientists") sends outs surveys and tries to find statistical correlation. This is much different than real scientific studies, i.e., causal studies, where you try to understand cause and effect of your hypothesis. One of the major issue in sitting all day is pasture management which causes back pain issues. So it's not about getting cardio exercise (that would be silly) but avoiding long term back pain issues. Also, sit-and-stand desk allows you to adjust height easily which is again important through out the day.
damontal 8y ago
I feel like I problem solve better sitting. For meetings I tend to stand but if I’m coding anything nontrivial I sit.
radarthreat 8y ago
I'm guessing this article was funded by Big Chair.
nunez 8y ago
TL;DR: Sitting too long is bad. Standing too long is bad. Find a balance!
dqpb 8y ago
> “Alternating standing and sitting while using a computer may be useful for some people with low back or neck pain,” he said — but people shouldn’t be under the illusion that they’re getting exercise. Nobody is under the illusion that standing is exercise. What a pointless article.
objektif 8y ago
I actually think standing desks are horrible for knees. So I would agree with the assertion to a certain degree. I have tried it for 4 months and only thing I gained out of it is knee pain.

193 points by mistersquid 8y ago

The author's bigotry is showing in spades. I don't care if standing all day long is "associated with lower socioeconomic status". Standing makes me feel better, improves my posture, and takes away all the literal physical pains associated with sitting. If this makes me similar to a person working in retail, so be it. Am I supposed to be ashamed of our shared fundamental humanity too?

justanegg 8y ago
socioeconomics shouldn't factor into this, only the wellbeing of the individual. terrible journalism again.
detaro 8y ago
I think you completely misunderstood the point of that sentence.
yeutterg 8y ago
"Standing makes me feel better, improves my posture, and takes away all the literal physical pains associated with sitting." This. After using a standing desk for a few years, I only occasionally want to sit (like 5% of the time). And I generally regret it after about 20-30 minutes. I see a lot of standing desk users with improper monitor or keyboard height, and I think this hurts standing desks' reputation. If these are not correct, you will get neck and/or lower back pain if you use the desk long enough. Unfortunately, it can be pricey to have a workstation that is ergonomically correct for you, because the keyboard to monitor height distance is much greater in a standing configuration vs. sitting. Convertible options tend to be expensive. Having a cushy floor mat also makes a huge difference.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  I think a lot of sitting desk users also have improper monitor or keyboard height, and many (most, anecdotally) people have atrocious posture. This probably explains a lot of why sitting has a negative reputation. Personally, standing all day makes my feet tired & sore. I much prefer a well set-up sitting workstation and regular walking breaks.
LibsAreRetarded 8y ago
It seems like you grossly misread the point the article was making there. People of lower socio-economic status have worse health outcomes not because of their sitting or standing, but because of more unhealthy behaviors on average and the fact that its harder for them to access quality healthcare in general. So if you found the population of standers was just as healthy as the population of sitters, despite the fact that the standers have less money, that would be an argument in favor of standing, not against it.
JshWright 8y ago
There is no "bigotry" there... It is an objective fact that (especially in the US) lower socioeconomic status is higher correlated with worse health outcomes. The author is pointing out one of the possible methodological flaws in studies evaluating the health impact of standing while working (i.e. by selecting for folks who stand at work, they are _also_ selecting for people of lower socioeconomic status, and it's likely the socioeconomic factors outweigh the sitting/standing distinction in terms of health).

bpicolo 8y ago

Best strategy is just drinking enough that you need to hit the restroom with reasonable frequency. You stay hydrated and get well-timed walking/headspace breaks. Win-win.

aj_g 8y ago
This is my strategy as well. Keep a Nalgene topped up with water and pee like 10 times a day. Coworkers might raise an eyebrow, but who cares. It works great because of the power of habit--it's easy to sip a little bit of water every few minutes, and then of course you're forced to get up and move around/pee when the urge is strong enough.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- asdff 8y ago
  I used to do this but meetings became unbearable with the urge to pee striking every hour.
malnourish 8y ago
Anecdotal, but be wary. I drank a lot of water for a long time (120+ ounces a day of water, plus whatever else I would drink). I was constantly thirsty and was worried I had diabetes. It turns out I was drinking _too_ much water and was flushing out valuable electrolytes from my system. Drinking less paradoxically left me feeling quenched, but it took a doctor's visit and blood work to resolve.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  Indeed, you have to be careful not to overdose on water. More people die from too much water than too little.
  - bpicolo 8y ago
    You don't need to be particularly careful. Apparently, the stats show the vast majority of deaths from overhydration in normal individuals are the result of water-drinking contests or exercise-related overhydration in ultramarathons and similar

iosDrone 8y ago

Treadmill desks are superior.

hmuskat 8y ago

I suspect people aren't going to read the entire article or are going to be put off by the rather aggressively-opinionated title. I was expecting a more extreme conclusion than: - Sitting all day isn't great, but just sitting won't kill you - Standing all day isn't great, but just standing won't kill you - Standing isn't exercise - As long as you exercise and take breaks during the work day, it doesn't really matter if you sit or stand

AstralStorm 8y ago
The last point is not mentioned in the article at all.
- jboy55 8y ago
  It is, "Too much sitting over the course of a day is not healthy — let’s be clear. And as I’ve written before, exercise is the closest thing to a wonder drug. Few things provide such a health benefit."

robotmay 8y ago

Well, obviously it's not a replacement for exercise. Was anyone ever claiming that? Because I'd think it's fairly obvious that standing still doesn't exactly burn the calories off. The key is moderation, like with everything. Alternate between sitting and standing. This past year I've started to get problems with my legs caused by sitting. Exercise relieves it, but the aches return when I sit down again. I just spend too much time sitting down (I work remotely as a programmer, and I'm also a musician). Swapping to alternating sitting/standing makes a big difference in this regard, and I had hoped to get a new desk 6 months ago, but due to house purchase trouble (and the fact my flat is too small to swap out this desk); I'm still stuck at my current desk. Hopefully it won't be too much longer now; I do worry what permanent damage is happening. Sit/stand desks have an added bonus of letting you adjust the height of the desk when sat down, which makes a big difference. Chair choice is a big part of it. I do think pretty much all office chairs are designed wrong, in that they have a solid base and a cushion on top. Once you bottom-out (hurr) the cushion, you're sat on a hard surface, and that's most likely part of my issue. Aeron chairs are good in this regard, in that they're a suspended mesh with no hard surface underneath. I quite like sitting on the floor as well, and I'm hoping to accommodate for that in my office design for my house. I think a wider variety of positions could only help to spread the strain.

sithadmin 8y ago
>due to house purchase trouble (and the fact my flat is too small to swap out this desk); I'm still stuck at my current desk. Have you considered a standing desk converter for your existing desk (e.g. from Varidesk, though there are quite a few other vendors out there with more reasonable pricing)? It's made a huge difference for me in some situations where the existing desk could not be swapped out.
- mdekkers 8y ago
  Have you considered a standing desk converter for your existing desk When I wanted to try a standing desk, I just put my desk on some breezeblocks...
anonymousDan 8y ago

WhompingWindows 8y ago

This article is by a pediatrician, not a physical therapist or a subject matter expert. The article basically consists of the author pointing to some studies on the subject and concluding that there's not yet definitive, decisive evidence as to the long-term benefits of standing desks. Anyone who reads about standing desks knew that already. And, as someone who is known amongst friends and colleagues for using one, I've had numerous cases of people saying "Welp WhompingWindows, your standing desk is pointless, I saw a buzzfeed article about how a single study from North Dakota State said they're not great." The title of this post and the the title of the article are not justified. The author's take-home in the final paragraph is that standing is not exercise, but standing desks may help those with back or neck pain and some people just prefer it. So, really, there's no evidence here to support the "Overrated" claim in the headline. Like every post I see on standing desks, or anything with a controversial/contentious set of studies/proponents, each writer can select whichever set of studies from the vast array that conforms to their viewpoint. Those studies that disagree with the final conclusion? Better point out potential confounders, non-causal links, selection bias, etc. Drag out the usual methodological suspects to invalidate an opinion you don't agree with. It's easy to straw-man, though it's also easy to go to the discussion and just copy the authors' own assessment of their studys' weaknesses. This happens all the time in science like epidemiology, you're not an epidemiologist if you haven't made a dozen complaints about an article's methods before considering its ramifications. Even Einstein - despite the evidence to the contrary, he could not accept some of the quantum-mechanical conclusions that his work helped bring about.

thanosnose 8y ago
It's clickbait "news" and "studies". So much of the media and "science" is useless people doing useless nonsense just to make money. "Why you shouldn't work remotely". "Why you shouldn't drink coffee". "Why you should drink coffee". "Vaping is better than cigarettes". "Vaping worse than cigarettes". It's a never ending assembly line of garbage because they need to push out garbage every day. "Publish or perish" has ruined academia, much of science and the media. Also, anything can be "overrated". It is a subjective term. The article doesn't tell us anything of any value. What did we learn? Someone thinks standing desks are overrated. Okay. Who cares? Is that worthy of an article in the nytimes?

malnourish 8y ago

Interesting. I'm always a fan of research challenging wisdom, although I'm not sure who really thought standing alone was exercise. I've found greatly improved comfort with my standing desk at work and I want to upgrade my home desk once I move. I hope that the lack of evidence for specific health improvements doesn't encourage companies to stop offering the desks.

AstralStorm 8y ago
I'm waiting for the desks with integrated threadmill and bicycle. Ooof, apparently no one wants sweaty and loud coworkers.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  Treadmill desks are already a Thing. Haven't seen one in a big corporate office, yet, however.
  - davio 8y ago
    I've seen some in offices, but they are shared resources that you can use as needed instead of someone's permanent desk.
  - PascLeRasc 8y ago
    Ironically, the NYT has one: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/treadmill-desk-office.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/t...
    - malnourish 8y ago
      Maybe not ironic, since walking is exercise :-)
- malnourish 8y ago
  If they can solve head and arm bob, I'm all in.

LibsAreRetarded 8y ago

Zero-gravity desks and treadmill desks have both always seemed like more promising options to me.

cimmanom 8y ago
What is a zero-gravity desk?
- akvadrako 8y ago
  Maybe something like this: https://mashable.com/2015/10/28/altwork-station-laying-down/#Iw8wzWl5diq6 https://mashable.com/2015/10/28/altwork-station-laying-down/...
  - LibsAreRetarded 8y ago
    Yes, exactly.

antoineMoPa 8y ago

My main motivation for buying a standing desk would be saving my back from constant pressure. CTRL+F "back" in this article tells me that the author did not care at all about back problems and thought people bought standing desks to exercise. I already exercise in my spare time and commutes.

samastur 8y ago
Maybe read the article next time. He says standing may help those with lower back and neck pain problems.
- antoineMoPa 8y ago
  I read this exact part. Who does not suffer back pain after hours of sitting? If it does not hurt, does it mean it is still good to be sitting all the time? no. The author sounds like back pain is not a typical problem and that exercise is a huge part of the reason people use standing desks.
  - cletus 8y ago
    Who doesn't? Me, for a start. I've honestly never understood the standing desk thing. I mean if it alleviates back pain or just makes you happy, sure. Why not? It's not a given that everyone suffers back or neck pain from sitting though.
    - senorjazz 8y ago
      sample size of one, but I have suffered lower back pain for about 15 years. It is always there, but worse some times than others. When it is bad, I cannot sit in the chair for more than a couple of minutes. Standing at the desk (well a box on a desk that my laptop goes on) the pain is reduced so can at least get a days work done.
    - jboy55 8y ago
      Raises hand, another one who's back doesn't hurt while sitting.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dana321 8y ago

There are benefits to standing, for one is increased strength in the legs - just try it, it is a workout and you do burn more calories standing up than sitting down. Increased cognitive ability is another benefit, due to the increased blood flow. I think alternating is great, its what i tend to do.

AstralStorm 8y ago
1) Show me that study. Also, varicose veins suggest otherwise. Good muscle tone helps to prevent them. Apparently standing does not provide the right impulse. Yes, you will burn slightly more calories but at what cost? 2) This is even more out there and suspicious claim. Varicose veins form out of impaired blood flow, not improved. 3) Do you mean situps? I heard they are an actual exercise.
krooj 8y ago
The benefits of a standing desk are junk if taken on their own. Standing for extended periods is bad for you, just as is sitting all the time. Your calf muscles behave as a pump for getting blood back to your heart, so when all you do is stand, that pump isn't activated and blood will pool. Just ask people that need to stand for a living. This isn't a simple solution: our bodies are meant to move, and extended sitting or standing isn't natural.

gunnarde 8y ago

"Sit-stand desks are not exactly inexpensive, but like many things in life, they’re fine if you like them. And if it helps alleviate some back and neck pain, so much the better. It’s just that most people probably don’t need them." TL:DR

40acres 8y ago

If you occasionally come by the lastest findings in research, as one is want to do on HackerNews, and have also sat center court at a tennis match, you'll realize that both experiences are pretty much the same. I don't know if this is the replication crisis rearing it's head or not, but being a casual observer of research is too much of a roller coaster for me to try to "optimize" my life based on the latest findings. In reality, it seems there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to a general guide to live well: try to get a good night's sleep, abstain from drugs if you can, eat healthy foods while maintaining a slight calorie defecit, and get some exercise every once in a while. Outside of that it seems like you're playing with margins.

devinhelton 8y ago

So does the New York Times owe an apology and a correction for this article? "Sitting, it would seem, is an independent pathology. Being sedentary for nine hours a day at the office is bad for your health whether you go home and watch television afterward or hit the gym. It is bad whether you are morbidly obese or marathon-runner thin. “Excessive sitting,” Dr. Levine says, “is a lethal activity.”" https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t.... And this one? "Too much time spent in a chair could shorten our lives, even if we exercise" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/well/move/get-up-stand-up.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/well/move/get-up-stand-up... I just find it disconcerting that the New York Times publishes an article like this, without any acknowledgement that it has been pushing a different conclusion for the past eight years. I get that that this article is from a different author, but when people go to the New York Times, they are usually trusting the overall institution and editorial controls more than the byline. I also get that new studies comes in and the evidence changes -- but that still requires some sort of acknowledgement that they were wrong before.

appsonify 8y ago

Oh man...these type of overreaching opinions is bound to be controversial. I bought a standing desk because my ass hurts from sitting down too long and I don't have a lot of flesh down there. I have to use a cushion and eventually that also puts pressure on my back and my ass still hurts. So I bought a manually operated standing desk on Amazon.ca in order to not hurt my ass from sitting down too long. Also not good for your prostate health to be sitting down for hours at a time. But please convince me why I shouldn't stop the pain in the ass.

keymone 8y ago

The sitting desks are overrated. There is not enough evidence to support the claim that sitting desks improve health. Sitting desks are a ploy by chair manufacturing industry to make you buy expensive chairs even though all experts agree that sitting does not replace exercise.

josefresco 8y ago

My wife and I who both work at our desks, on computers for a significant portion of the work day, use "ball chairs": https://www.gaiam.com/products/classic-balance-ball-chair?variant=32936592129 https://www.gaiam.com/products/classic-balance-ball-chair?va... These chairs have helped with my leg and foot numbness/cold issues. I couldn't imagine working at a standing desk on days when my energy isn't 100% - which as a father and business owner is like ... every day. Note: I am in no way affiliated with Gaiam - but given how many clients ask about my chair ... I should!

supergeek133 8y ago

Haha. So I have a standing desk at work and at home, I do it because it keeps me much more alert, and helps with my back not hurting after sitting for 8 hours. I don't get how we always go back to debating the medical merits of this, when why don't we just worry about what makes the employee more comfortable? Expense wise, an average standing desk isn't terribly more expensive than a normal desk OR some of the chairs companies are buying for people to be more ergonomic.

JamesBarney 8y ago
Because I constantly see arguments that sat "you should use a standing desk because sitting is killing you". And not so many "you should try a standing desk, some people think they're more comfortable".
- asdff 8y ago
  Because people get bored reading articles with neutral tone. We are talking about a choice of desk, after all. Extremes in language are much more satisfying to read, consciously or not, and the ad money proves this.

mixmastamyk 8y ago

I believe standing at times during the day is useful for the bones, and never really considered it "exercise," at least not the strenuous kind. One thing I notice though is that folks often push very expensive powered desks that are not necessary. I've been using a relatively cheap drafting table and tall chair with armrests for years and think it is a great way to go. One can stand or sit during the day according to need.

zhte415 8y ago

I've seen a great connection between how happy people feel about their workspaces and how happy they feel they are in are them, physically and mentally. When on-boarding in my first regular job, we received a couple of hours training in how to adjust you chair from the health-and-safety manager. Fantastic training, him spinning around a chair showing how everything can be adapted, optimal eye, leg, waist, elbow height, the company gym instructor visiting demonstrating cases of how necks can get bent forward just by looking at a screen for a couple of years, the company doctor telling stories of the results of not complaining about feeling uncomfortable, and the lawyer telling us that this advice is useful coz we're giving it to you now, don't forget it. I've worked in a lot of other places since. Some have been more haphazard/freedom-giving in implementing a comfortable desk and I'm a fan of that: Put a stack of paper under the monitor. Have a footrest instead of adjusting the chair. Bring in a fishtank and have some (real) fish (not a screensaver) swimming past you while you work, go to the gym for an hour when there aren't meetings, lots of plants, do a standing desk on empty paper boxes, bring a camping bed to store under your desk and take a nap after lunch on it. Pretty free workspaces. What I've seen work, and not work, and work better, and this is complete anecdote: Colleagues that have the training to have been informed of best practices, and have an idea of the optimal 'springiness' setting to set their chair to have fun with their chair have freedom with their chair. Companies that do that then then also allow their employees to choose how to setup their environment are more productive, committed and a lot happier. Open-office environments are actually OK for this. But not hot-desking ones. Feeding your fish is 2-3 minutes of not staring at a screen or typing, refreshment. Knowing the cleaner will throwaway a present for a colleague if you're not cleaned your desk in the evening is a prison. Having plenty of small meeting rooms available can provide peace and privacy. And a quick nap on a colleague's borrowed camping bed when you're in for a long day, is bliss.

projectramo 8y ago

I think I see the problem here (with the comments). The main problem is that in order to claim something is "overrated", you have to have some idea of the "rating." So perhaps most of the other commenters were enlightened and knew exactly what the benefits were. Not me. Like (perhaps) the author, I thought sitting is really, really bad for you: for your heart, for your long term mobility, for your health. And that standing will alleviate these issues. Under my model, it wasn't just that moving was good and not moving was bad. I thought that specifically sitting was the worst form of non-movement (over lying down and standing). I can't tell you where I got this but I had read a lot of "sitting is the new smoking" type articles. Now this author tells me that is not the case, and there was no proof of it being the case. This is news to me. I had the correct "rating" for this article and it turns out I had "overrated" standing desks. If you already know all this, then of course it was not "overrated" for you.

Forbo 8y ago
Your comment reminds me of the narrator's struggle to define "Quality" in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
amoorthy 8y ago
Ask and ye shall receive. Article has a 77 OwlFactor rating: https://news.owlfactor.com/article/0-4279868/4279868-Why%20Standing%20Desks%20A?u=A15BBC88-5005-4360-9052-4813D0A22883 https://news.owlfactor.com/article/0-4279868/4279868-Why%20S... :)
deanCommie 8y ago
I think the premise of the article/implication is we went from "Sitting is the new smoking" ("and therefore you should quit - by Standing more" => "Standing is the new nicorette") to "Standing is the new Penicillin! If you accept the premise, the headline and conclusion makes sense. Standing ISN'T a replacement for exercise. There are ways to stand that will cause independent medical issues in joints. But, like you, I'm also dubious of the premise. While standing (or actually adjustable) desks are all the rage, I don't see an obsession over the concept approaching other overrated cults like crossfit, or keto.

charlesju 8y ago

I use a standing desk and my primary purposes are to keep myself more alert and to alleviate back pain. It is the single biggest improvement to back pain that I have found. As for health, like the article says, the most important things are keep up a good diet (eat just enough, eat as many whole foods as possible, vary what you eat) and exercise. I also would like to recommend https://fluidstance.com/ https://fluidstance.com/ which is a board that wobbles to go with a standing desk. This has further improved the benefits to my back and general alertness while working.

mistersquid 8y ago

Because I disagreed with the conclusions of the article, I submitted this article to the HN community for assessment. Many of the responses here call into question the article's apparent position, especially as regards its inflammatory title, and these responses reflect my own opinion and experience. I expressed my objections as a comment to the article, reproduced here for convenience. [0] > I've been a long distance runner all my life, hovering at a 7:30 pace. In my mid 40s I began getting pain in my legs while running. Increasingly, I could not run more than 3 miles at a time without injuring. My pace went to 8:30 or slower. > Almost 2 years ago, I went to physical therapy and my doctor prescribed a standing desk. 1 hour standing; 1 hour sitting. > Part of the problem according to my doctor is that my legs were tightening while sitting. Intermittently standing and stretching was not enough to offset what sitting was doing to my leg and back muscles. > Since receiving a standing accessory at work and acquiring a motorized desk at home, my injuries have disappeared. > Of course the stretching exercises I continue to do as directed by my physical therapist help. But stretching by itself did not work as I grew older. > The combination of stretching exercise and alternating standing and sitting afforded by a standing desk has helped me recover from my injuries. > My running pace has hit 7:20 and declining. > Dismissing the potential benefit of standing desk as an expensive luxury is about as advisable as dismissing a doctor's visit as unnecessary use of health care. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/upshot/why-standing-desks-are-overrated.html#commentsContainer&permid=29452335 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/upshot/why-standing-desks...

jboy55 8y ago
The article that you are commenting on specifically states that standing desks aren't an improvement for cardiovascular health. The article also states that standing desks can help ergonomic issues. The article you posted shows that a standing desk can help ergonomic issues, it doesn't mention cardiovascular health.
- mistersquid 8y ago
  You are right that the article clarifies the lack of relationship between cardiovascular health and standing. My point is that for me the two are interlinked. I could not run due to musculoskeletal issues from sitting. Being able to alternate between standing and sitting addressed these issues and allowed me to resume (improve) my running. I don’t have enough expertise to evaluate if the studies cited by the author account for the relatonship between ergonomics (musculoskeletal effects) and cardiovascular health, but I do believe in my specific case the two are inextricably linked. EDIT: spelling

netcan 8y ago

You know what the problem with problems is? I'll tell you the problem with problems... :) Imagine Jules. Jules likes to put her laptop on the counter and work standing for an hour after lunch, while having her coffee. ...helps her digestion, or neck or something.. Personally, I like standing and/or walking while working too. I think better, it feels like. I like walking meetings, especially if we're going to be scheming. Anyway... Jules has a laptop, a counter and she can stand if she likes. The problem (with problems) is that we^ can't live with "Jules likes X." X must be a universal truth, transformational but as yet undiscovered... something worthy of TedX. In comes corporate and bureaucratic fact-finding, maybe some pseudo-science. Occasionally actual science weighs in, but those assholes always seem to hedge with fancy "maybes" and "more studies required." So, we create some corporate truth, a way for Jules to stand up with official, legible backing. It's the same HN debate we keep having about open offices. We can't keep it at "I like/dislike this thing," thing must be quantifiably better. Not all the decisions we make are factual. ^We means: HN, HR, OHS, furniture manufacturers, ergonomics auditors, techchrunch...

jm__87 8y ago
Thanks. I stopped reading the article here: > Research, however, suggests that warnings about sitting at work are overblown, and that standing desks are overrated as a way to improve health. Who cares what research says. If someone says it helps them and they prefer it to sitting, that is enough proof for me.
- savanaly 8y ago
  By that logic, I guess homeopathy is also perfectly proven as effective?
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sbhn 8y ago

I stand 3 hours a day on the busses and trains trying to keep balance to and from work, I can’t wait to sit down when I finally get the chance.

PascLeRasc 8y ago

In case anyone wants a different position on standing desks from another NYTer: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/treadmill-desk-office.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/t...

jboy55 8y ago
That's a treadmill desk... I really think this comment section is just people reading the article as "Standing desks are bad" and posting any positive thing about standing desks. The article is, "Standing desks, by themselves, (no treadmill), provide no cardiovascular benefit. In terms of cardiovascular health, sitting maybe a marker not a cause." That is, people who sit 12 hours a day on average, typically don't exercise and have poor cardio health. Simply standing instead of sitting won't help that, you have to exercise.

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nimbius 8y ago

Coming from a blue collar job (I work as an engine repair mechanic) ive never understood standing desks. most of the articles are right up there with either crystal chakra magic or "our ancesters were healthier!" crap. I stand 6-8 hours a day. so do most of my coworkers. Simple observation of a chubby mechanic or a fat construction worker will tell you that the "standing desks are healthier" line is complete bullshit.

tuukkah 8y ago
Umm, sitting kills. The idea is that a standing desk can let you live longer whatever your body formation.
- dugdun 8y ago
  I don't think that it's sitting that kills. I think it's more the fact that you are less active. You can have the same problem standing all day without moving around.
  - tuukkah 8y ago
    So either sitting kills by itself and standing up is enough to avoid it, or sitting kills by taking time from being physically active and it's not enough to stand up (which also takes time from being physically active). Here's some brand-new research based on 1000 people wearing accelerometers 24/7: http://epublications.uef.fi/pub/urn_isbn_978-952-61-2928-0/index_en.html http://epublications.uef.fi/pub/urn_isbn_978-952-61-2928-0/i... Sedentary behaviour, physical activity, and risk of coronary artery disease and diabetes mellitus "From the accelerometer-derived parameters of SB [sedentary behaviour], a higher number of daily SB bouts lasting over 10 minutes was the strongest predictor of a high CVD [cardiovascular disease] risk."
vhost- 8y ago
Claims of the health benefits of standing desks are not about weight loss. I don't think I've seen that claimed at all. Claims I've seen most often are back related, blood pooling related, and cardiovascular/blood circulation. The jury is still out, but subjectively, switching to a standing desk at least a few times a week really helped my posture and back.

simonsarris 8y ago

I dislike standing desks but I sincerely recommend trying the following: Buy yoga pants (lulu mens pants look good enough that I wear them for almost everything), take off your shoes, and sit like you used to sit when you were a kid: Sit cross legged, sit on your legs, sit 'normally', and let yourself move around and change positions and fidget naturally. Over time I have found this much more intuitively comfortable than a sitting or standing desk, and being able to fidget more easily helps me think, just like going for walks helps me think. Point being: try stuff out! Maybe you'll find something more comfortable than the status quo, faddish or not.

incadenza 8y ago

This just in! Standing is not exercise. I’m glad we cleared up this hotly debated topic.

khalll 8y ago

Overrated? Just plain stupid.

jackconnor 8y ago

Their results are that standing desks help with back problems, but don't provide cardiovascular exercise - yea, not shit. This is exactly what everyone thought, so I have no idea why this click-baity article exists. Standing desks don't cure cancer, they don't stop baldness, and they won't do anything for your allergies either, I'm shocked they didn't include these as reasons standing desks are "overrated".

vemv 8y ago

At work, I hate sitting (despite owning a couple very specific chairs that I'm actually comfortably in) and I also hate standing. Both seem to keep my body/mind tense - which is at odds with the deep focusing/relaxation I need for working on creative solutions for long stretches of time. Very recently I discovered the wonders of beanbags, reclinable armchairs, and so on. I might even try a hammock one day. All these mix well with wireless keyboard/trackpad + a projector. Looking forward to build my next-gen home office in this style (current sofa/projector combo is just me squatting the office event room).

asdff 8y ago
How do you deal with sleeping? Every time I sit somewhere with my head supported, I begin to drift off. Doesn't matter if I slept in, or if I've had two cups of coffee. If my head is stabilized, it's over for me.
- vemv 8y ago
  Ha ha, sounds like a good problem to have :) Can't help sadly, generally computers will leave me well awake for at least a couple hours since the moment I'm done.

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swerveonem 8y ago

Standing desks might be but adjustable desks are not. Who wants their neck at the same angle all day everyday for years?

passwordreset 8y ago

I have a standing desk. I've heard about how stupid standing desks were, so I went out and bought a highchair. Now I can sit at my desk like a normal person. Thanks, New York Times!

sudovancity 8y ago

I mean, it's ok for people to like something and others to not like it. Some people like to stand and some people don't.

Lio 8y ago

By chance the treadmill to go with my sit/stand desk arrived today. Having used a height adjustable desk some years ago I'd sort of written them off. I can't use one all day on its own, I find the blood just pools in my legs after a while and I just want to sit down. Equally though I've also suffered sciatica in the past which I attribute to sitting for hours and hour before a log commute driving. It was agony. So to break things up I've got my own treadmill desk for my home office. I'm walking right now as I type this. I can feel that my heart rate is definitely slightly raised but not so much I"m likely to start sweating. All in all seems pretty good so far.

choot 8y ago

I work remote. And i lay in bed most of the times. Somtimes, I am laying in the bathtub with a coke and completing projects on my Dell XPS16 running Debian. I never felt the need to sit or stand.

apl002 8y ago

i just like them cause they are a good change of pace for comfort. If im working on code for 5+ hrs, my butt/back gets sore from sitting for so long. Switching to standing for an hour or so allows me to grind longer. In no way do i think that im somehow being healthier for standing

madmax108 8y ago

I do not see why it has to ever be an all or nothing when it comes to desks. At work, we have adjustable desks, which can electronically be adjusted to sitting or standing positions. I alternate between sitting and standing every hour or so, combined with small walks around office between shifting positions (say to the cafeteria or washroom or the game room). When I get off my desk, I make it a point to focus on some point far away to ensure my eyes get a break from simply staring at a screen 2 feet away from me. Combining this along with ensuring I consume enough water through the course of the day (in AC environments, a very common cause of headaches/neckaches is simply dehydration) means I can ensure that I get to operate productively through the day. Don't see why people get so paranoid about having to be in a single position for 8 hours a day. The human body simply ain't made for that!

anon2775 8y ago

Standing desks should come with anti-fatigue mats like most restaurants have.

PhrosTT 8y ago

Sitting shortens your hip flexors over time. This causes lower back pain.

MarkMc 8y ago

Standing seems to burn about 50 calories per hour more than sitting [0] and walking burns about 80 calories per mile [1]. So wouldn't a first approximation for the benefits of standing an extra 5 hours per day be the same as walking 3 miles per day? [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24532996 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24532996 [1] https://www.verywellfit.com/walking-calories-burned-by-miles-3887154 https://www.verywellfit.com/walking-calories-burned-by-miles...

TheBeardKing 8y ago

>For convenience and comfort, it’s nice to have options if you have various aches and pains — “Alternating standing and sitting while using a computer may be useful for some people with low back or neck pain,” he said — but people shouldn’t be under the illusion that they’re getting exercise. Yeah and how do many people get to having back and neck pain? From sitting all day! Talk to any spine specialist and they'll tell you that. Since I switched to standing most of the day my pain is definitely reduced, and I know I'm burning more calories because I often incorporate more movements than I would typically do sitting. I stretch more often, do a yoga position, whatever, the point is that incorporating movement is much more likely when you're already standing.

sytelus 8y ago

The article is quite misleading IMO. It cites bunch of studies which directly conflicts with headline and the author just brushes them off. For other studies which mildly agrees with title, author overblows its important. For example, one study says: standing or walking for more than six hours a day at work was associated with a doubled or tripled risk of needing surgery Note that it's 6 hours of standing! Also, important to remember that these are correlation studies meaning that surveyors (I refuse to call them "scientists") sends outs surveys and tries to find statistical correlation. This is much different than real scientific studies, i.e., causal studies, where you try to understand cause and effect of your hypothesis. One of the major issue in sitting all day is pasture management which causes back pain issues. So it's not about getting cardio exercise (that would be silly) but avoiding long term back pain issues. Also, sit-and-stand desk allows you to adjust height easily which is again important through out the day.

damontal 8y ago

I feel like I problem solve better sitting. For meetings I tend to stand but if I’m coding anything nontrivial I sit.

radarthreat 8y ago

I'm guessing this article was funded by Big Chair.

nunez 8y ago

TL;DR: Sitting too long is bad. Standing too long is bad. Find a balance!

dqpb 8y ago

> “Alternating standing and sitting while using a computer may be useful for some people with low back or neck pain,” he said — but people shouldn’t be under the illusion that they’re getting exercise. Nobody is under the illusion that standing is exercise. What a pointless article.

objektif 8y ago

I actually think standing desks are horrible for knees. So I would agree with the assertion to a certain degree. I have tried it for 4 months and only thing I gained out of it is knee pain.