17 ms·

Thing is, it doesn't seem to pay, at least in the employment market. Employers want specialists, and pay for them. If your CV is two or three distinct things (

Thing is, it doesn't seem to pay, at least in the employment market. Employers want specialists, and pay for them. If your CV is two or three distinct things (I don't mean a selection of languages, or front and back end dev here, I mean distinct skills like say programming and accountancy) it's very unlikely to get you a better salary. In fact if you've diverged from a straight specialism throughout your career it's probable you'll be punished with a lower salary, and problems getting hired in the first place. Expect a lot of challenging interview questions as to why you haven't followed a straight line from junior, through senior into project management (which of course is a different skill, making this even more inconsistent). I'm sure those same disparate skills could be hugely useful if you're starting a business or startup, but for employment it's likely to make life harder, even though many employers would benefit just as much from your increased breadth of perspective. So outside a few rare employers, and a few lucky applicants, I don't think there's much out there for generalists, sadly.

kartickv 8y ago
Is your experience with companies that could make use of your other skill? If you understand accounting, and you're applying to a company that makes photography apps, that won't be given much value. Are you also good in your primary skill? Is it like 100% of engineering (say) + 20% of UX design, or 60% each of engineering and UX design? In the former case, one will clear the bar for an engineer job post, with your UX design skills helping to position you above other qualified engineers. In the latter case, you may be judged unqualified and rejected. And what do you think about related skills, like UX design or marketing in addition to programming.
em-bee 8y ago
but that is exactly what the OP is trying to change because the current status quo can not be upheld. that it doesn't pay now is only because not enough people are aware of the benefits. it's similar to the problem of hiring for a specific tools as opposed to hiring people who are good at learning new tools. if the new tools are similar to the ones they already know they will be productive in no time. greetings, eMBee.
nordsieck 8y ago
> In fact if you've diverged from a straight specialism throughout your career it's probable you'll be punished with a lower salary, and problems getting hired in the first place. I don't think this is true. Getting better at a thing has diminishing - often severely diminishing returns. Giving up being top 23% in programming in exchange for being top 25% in programming + top 25% in accounting doesn't seem like it would be much of a career liability. > Employers want specialists, and pay for them. If your CV is two or three distinct things (I don't mean a selection of languages, or front and back end dev here, I mean distinct skills like say programming and accountancy) it's very unlikely to get you a better salary. You're probably not going to get a better salary working for a company that only values one skill. You have to pick your employer more carefully. That being said, there are tons of software jobs in the banking/accounting sector ranging from product development to consulting. I'm sure that being an excellent programmer and an excellent accountant could make you much more money than just one without the other at some of those companies.
lumost 8y ago
on the contrary many job postings advertise for two or more core skills. Searching for any Finance or Advertising software position is likely to turn up something like the following https://www.spotifyjobs.com/job/senior-ad-tech-engineer-backend-odur7fwp/ https://www.spotifyjobs.com/job/senior-ad-tech-engineer-back... In addition to the standard Backend swe callouts the job desires ad-tech knowledge and advertising business knowledge. I'd be willing to bet they have a strong inclination towards anyone who's in the top 25% of both, but would consider cross-training for a top 1% in either. As you go up the IC ladder the demand for cross-functional skills rises.
joshvm 8y ago
> Employers want specialists, and pay for them. If your CV is two or three distinct things (I don't mean a selection of languages, or front and back end dev here, I mean distinct skills like say programming and accountancy) it's very unlikely to get you a better salary. This really depends on your employer and your definition of specialist. There are jobs where following a very straight career path would be a disadvantage: you might be perceived as a boring candidate who would potentially struggle if given work outside their domain. I think it's fair to say that, generally, breadth is valued more at smaller companies where people have to multi-task. In academia it's much easier to do well as an inter-disciplinary researcher than it is to try and be the best in a single field. The obvious killer combo right now is machine learning for X, where X is a field which does not have a strong grounding in computer science. Hacker news gives a very skewed view on the world, as if everyone is up to date with the latest developments in deep learning. In reality, most people in academia are pretty unaware of what's possible, or don't have the technical skills (or grad students with them) to make use of it. This is currently true even for maths-heavy fields like physics, which you may find surprising - I certainly do. Now is a really good time to get on the ladder. You also need to consider job satisfaction. People who are pretty good at several things may be bored with a single track career, and no amount of money will make up for that.
- WalterSear 8y ago
  > I think it's fair to say that, generally, breadth is valued more at smaller companies where people have to multi-task. IME, not at all during the hiring process. And only rarely later.
  - kartickv 8y ago
    Is your experience with companies that could make use of your other skill? If you understand accounting, and you're applying to a company that makes photography apps, that won't be given much value.
    - WalterSear 8y ago
      Obviously if your skills aren't relevant, they aren't going to be used. IMHO, this is mostly due to the nature of the industry I am in (software). Hiring engineers is difficult, and only done when there are specific needs to fill - particularly at small companies, that can't afford to think too far ahead, or afield.
mobjack 8y ago
Project management requires a more generalist skill set compared a senior programmer. Specialization is good to a point, but then it can be more valuable to branch into other areas. After you learn how to program, you will need to learn what to program and that requires more diverse skills and knowledge to make those decisions.
- Godel_unicode 8y ago
  Is that actually true? I've met very few project managers who know any discipline other than project management with anything I would call depth. I can't even imagine talking to a PM about any serious technical question anymore. Their answers in the past have always been a unique type of unhelpfully vague but hard to argue with which puts all the effort back on you, but not in a way which adds anything to solving the problem. Things like "what's best practice" when I've just exhaustively explained how we're in the precise corner case to which the normal best practice doesn't apply are, for me, the hallmark of PM ideas. Deep technical insight or domain knowledge are not.
  - collyw 8y ago
    Yeah, I have found a few PM's who were "used to be technical". To be honest I found it a bit frustrating at times as they would think they knew enough to make (some of the) technical decisions, when I felt that I should actually be making those decisions as was the one actually getting my hands dirty with the code. Plus I had more experience as a developer than them, as they had transitioned to PM and hadn't actually been building stuff for a while.
chrisco255 8y ago
Having domain knowledge in accounting would certainly help you if you were writing accounting software. And similarly, having programming skills as an accountant could be quite useful for creating custom tooling.
- collyw 8y ago
  Sure this is useful, but the vast majority of my jobs have involved picking up the domain knowledge in the first couple of months.
seanpackham 8y ago
Recently I find this to be the case for me. I consider myself a generalist: engineering (a few stacks/languages), product, business, marketing, leadership and education. Recruiters tell me to focus on one thing on my CV and I feel employers don’t believe I could be even two of those things. For example with my blend of skills I was able to double the traffic, increase leads and social engagement by 5-6x at the last place I worked after my first quarter. My boss didn’t understand what happened and when I recount the steps and results to other people they don’t believe me. After winding down my own startup a few months ago I’ve struggled to get hired. People don’t advertise for generalists and as I remove certain skills and roles/duties from my CV I’ve found the hiring process gets easier. I’d love some advice, even more I’d love to put my skills to work.
- kartickv 8y ago
  A possibly silly question: did you counter with "Why don't you test my engineering skills if you don't believe me? Give me a fair chance. And then, if I'm not good, by all means reject me." That's assuming you've applied for an engineering job. Another question: as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18484883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18484883 says, would it help to rewrite your CV to highlight what the job is looking for? Again, if it's an engineering job, talk about your eng accomplishments in great detail, with perhaps only a bullet point for other skills at the bottom of the resume? As https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ says: > Did the solicitation for the job say “We are seeking someone with strong skills at scaling traffic in a fast-moving environment”? Pick out the key words. Scaling traffic. Fast-moving environment. “Scaling traffic” doesn’t sound like how I’d phrase it if I were writing or speaking for myself, but if you’ve just described your need to me as scaling traffic, by golly I will tell you how great I am at scaling traffic.
anotheryou 8y ago
exactly. I throw all art out of my resume and the best offers come from companies in the same market as my current employer. I'm a generalist, but for each application I have to mold it in to a fitting expertise. Even when applying for product and project management. even within companies, no matter what you actually do, your job title will haunt you. doing 90% frontend dev and being the designer, doing 60% product and being the project manager.
f4stjack 8y ago
Do agree. I am a: - philosopher (Bachelor's degree) - sociologist (Master's degree with thesis on criminology) - international relations student (another bachelor's dg in 2 years) - C# Programmer (by a workshop) - Java Programmer (by profession) - Python programmer / Data scientist (by self education) - Data Analyst with SQL(workshop & profession) and the HR guys around here just think "I am not focused enough" and don't even get into the technical phase of the interview most of the time. Sadly, I think, if I could get into that part I'd ace it. Right now I am super demotivated though. Maybe this is a regional thing, I can not comment about how my resumé would look to an international company but the question of "what does it mean to be an employable person" is a valid one and sadly can be answered with hyperspecialization and/or knowing the right people working in the company.
- tzekid 8y ago
  Working in a team is not only about skill, but about work-culture. If they have dismissed you because you have a broad range of interests, then that place wasn't right for you anyways.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    There are very, very few places where a broad range of professional skills is considered an asset for a developer. Most places want cogs. If you're too broad or have too many teeth, you're not going to fit in with the other cogs. But you may be pitching at the wrong level. Developer jobs may not be the right niche for someone with a broad spectrum of skills. (By which I mean genuinely broad multidisciplinary professional skills and interests, not [three popular coding languages with some backend experience].) Management and strategy may be a better fit.
    - touristtam 8y ago
      Or analysis/statistics field?
- mgreenham 8y ago
  I have a startup in healthcare (health.ai) looking in San Diego for broad interest developer... mike@health.ai
collyw 8y ago
"Full Stack Developer" is pretty much a generalist, and they are as in demand as ever.
- BerislavLopac 8y ago
  It is a generalist within the "computer programming" skill, so still a specialist. It all comes down to how narrow we define "specialisation".

kartickv 8y ago

Is your experience with companies that could make use of your other skill? If you understand accounting, and you're applying to a company that makes photography apps, that won't be given much value. Are you also good in your primary skill? Is it like 100% of engineering (say) + 20% of UX design, or 60% each of engineering and UX design? In the former case, one will clear the bar for an engineer job post, with your UX design skills helping to position you above other qualified engineers. In the latter case, you may be judged unqualified and rejected. And what do you think about related skills, like UX design or marketing in addition to programming.

em-bee 8y ago

but that is exactly what the OP is trying to change because the current status quo can not be upheld. that it doesn't pay now is only because not enough people are aware of the benefits. it's similar to the problem of hiring for a specific tools as opposed to hiring people who are good at learning new tools. if the new tools are similar to the ones they already know they will be productive in no time. greetings, eMBee.

nordsieck 8y ago

> In fact if you've diverged from a straight specialism throughout your career it's probable you'll be punished with a lower salary, and problems getting hired in the first place. I don't think this is true. Getting better at a thing has diminishing - often severely diminishing returns. Giving up being top 23% in programming in exchange for being top 25% in programming + top 25% in accounting doesn't seem like it would be much of a career liability. > Employers want specialists, and pay for them. If your CV is two or three distinct things (I don't mean a selection of languages, or front and back end dev here, I mean distinct skills like say programming and accountancy) it's very unlikely to get you a better salary. You're probably not going to get a better salary working for a company that only values one skill. You have to pick your employer more carefully. That being said, there are tons of software jobs in the banking/accounting sector ranging from product development to consulting. I'm sure that being an excellent programmer and an excellent accountant could make you much more money than just one without the other at some of those companies.

lumost 8y ago

on the contrary many job postings advertise for two or more core skills. Searching for any Finance or Advertising software position is likely to turn up something like the following https://www.spotifyjobs.com/job/senior-ad-tech-engineer-backend-odur7fwp/ https://www.spotifyjobs.com/job/senior-ad-tech-engineer-back... In addition to the standard Backend swe callouts the job desires ad-tech knowledge and advertising business knowledge. I'd be willing to bet they have a strong inclination towards anyone who's in the top 25% of both, but would consider cross-training for a top 1% in either. As you go up the IC ladder the demand for cross-functional skills rises.

joshvm 8y ago

> Employers want specialists, and pay for them. If your CV is two or three distinct things (I don't mean a selection of languages, or front and back end dev here, I mean distinct skills like say programming and accountancy) it's very unlikely to get you a better salary. This really depends on your employer and your definition of specialist. There are jobs where following a very straight career path would be a disadvantage: you might be perceived as a boring candidate who would potentially struggle if given work outside their domain. I think it's fair to say that, generally, breadth is valued more at smaller companies where people have to multi-task. In academia it's much easier to do well as an inter-disciplinary researcher than it is to try and be the best in a single field. The obvious killer combo right now is machine learning for X, where X is a field which does not have a strong grounding in computer science. Hacker news gives a very skewed view on the world, as if everyone is up to date with the latest developments in deep learning. In reality, most people in academia are pretty unaware of what's possible, or don't have the technical skills (or grad students with them) to make use of it. This is currently true even for maths-heavy fields like physics, which you may find surprising - I certainly do. Now is a really good time to get on the ladder. You also need to consider job satisfaction. People who are pretty good at several things may be bored with a single track career, and no amount of money will make up for that.

WalterSear 8y ago
> I think it's fair to say that, generally, breadth is valued more at smaller companies where people have to multi-task. IME, not at all during the hiring process. And only rarely later.
- kartickv 8y ago
  Is your experience with companies that could make use of your other skill? If you understand accounting, and you're applying to a company that makes photography apps, that won't be given much value.
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    Obviously if your skills aren't relevant, they aren't going to be used. IMHO, this is mostly due to the nature of the industry I am in (software). Hiring engineers is difficult, and only done when there are specific needs to fill - particularly at small companies, that can't afford to think too far ahead, or afield.

mobjack 8y ago

Project management requires a more generalist skill set compared a senior programmer. Specialization is good to a point, but then it can be more valuable to branch into other areas. After you learn how to program, you will need to learn what to program and that requires more diverse skills and knowledge to make those decisions.

Godel_unicode 8y ago
Is that actually true? I've met very few project managers who know any discipline other than project management with anything I would call depth. I can't even imagine talking to a PM about any serious technical question anymore. Their answers in the past have always been a unique type of unhelpfully vague but hard to argue with which puts all the effort back on you, but not in a way which adds anything to solving the problem. Things like "what's best practice" when I've just exhaustively explained how we're in the precise corner case to which the normal best practice doesn't apply are, for me, the hallmark of PM ideas. Deep technical insight or domain knowledge are not.
- collyw 8y ago
  Yeah, I have found a few PM's who were "used to be technical". To be honest I found it a bit frustrating at times as they would think they knew enough to make (some of the) technical decisions, when I felt that I should actually be making those decisions as was the one actually getting my hands dirty with the code. Plus I had more experience as a developer than them, as they had transitioned to PM and hadn't actually been building stuff for a while.

chrisco255 8y ago

Having domain knowledge in accounting would certainly help you if you were writing accounting software. And similarly, having programming skills as an accountant could be quite useful for creating custom tooling.

collyw 8y ago
Sure this is useful, but the vast majority of my jobs have involved picking up the domain knowledge in the first couple of months.

seanpackham 8y ago

Recently I find this to be the case for me. I consider myself a generalist: engineering (a few stacks/languages), product, business, marketing, leadership and education. Recruiters tell me to focus on one thing on my CV and I feel employers don’t believe I could be even two of those things. For example with my blend of skills I was able to double the traffic, increase leads and social engagement by 5-6x at the last place I worked after my first quarter. My boss didn’t understand what happened and when I recount the steps and results to other people they don’t believe me. After winding down my own startup a few months ago I’ve struggled to get hired. People don’t advertise for generalists and as I remove certain skills and roles/duties from my CV I’ve found the hiring process gets easier. I’d love some advice, even more I’d love to put my skills to work.

kartickv 8y ago
A possibly silly question: did you counter with "Why don't you test my engineering skills if you don't believe me? Give me a fair chance. And then, if I'm not good, by all means reject me." That's assuming you've applied for an engineering job. Another question: as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18484883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18484883 says, would it help to rewrite your CV to highlight what the job is looking for? Again, if it's an engineering job, talk about your eng accomplishments in great detail, with perhaps only a bullet point for other skills at the bottom of the resume? As https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ says: > Did the solicitation for the job say “We are seeking someone with strong skills at scaling traffic in a fast-moving environment”? Pick out the key words. Scaling traffic. Fast-moving environment. “Scaling traffic” doesn’t sound like how I’d phrase it if I were writing or speaking for myself, but if you’ve just described your need to me as scaling traffic, by golly I will tell you how great I am at scaling traffic.

anotheryou 8y ago

exactly. I throw all art out of my resume and the best offers come from companies in the same market as my current employer. I'm a generalist, but for each application I have to mold it in to a fitting expertise. Even when applying for product and project management. even within companies, no matter what you actually do, your job title will haunt you. doing 90% frontend dev and being the designer, doing 60% product and being the project manager.

f4stjack 8y ago

Do agree. I am a: - philosopher (Bachelor's degree) - sociologist (Master's degree with thesis on criminology) - international relations student (another bachelor's dg in 2 years) - C# Programmer (by a workshop) - Java Programmer (by profession) - Python programmer / Data scientist (by self education) - Data Analyst with SQL(workshop & profession) and the HR guys around here just think "I am not focused enough" and don't even get into the technical phase of the interview most of the time. Sadly, I think, if I could get into that part I'd ace it. Right now I am super demotivated though. Maybe this is a regional thing, I can not comment about how my resumé would look to an international company but the question of "what does it mean to be an employable person" is a valid one and sadly can be answered with hyperspecialization and/or knowing the right people working in the company.

tzekid 8y ago
Working in a team is not only about skill, but about work-culture. If they have dismissed you because you have a broad range of interests, then that place wasn't right for you anyways.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  There are very, very few places where a broad range of professional skills is considered an asset for a developer. Most places want cogs. If you're too broad or have too many teeth, you're not going to fit in with the other cogs. But you may be pitching at the wrong level. Developer jobs may not be the right niche for someone with a broad spectrum of skills. (By which I mean genuinely broad multidisciplinary professional skills and interests, not [three popular coding languages with some backend experience].) Management and strategy may be a better fit.
  - touristtam 8y ago
    Or analysis/statistics field?
mgreenham 8y ago
I have a startup in healthcare (health.ai) looking in San Diego for broad interest developer... mike@health.ai

collyw 8y ago

"Full Stack Developer" is pretty much a generalist, and they are as in demand as ever.

BerislavLopac 8y ago
It is a generalist within the "computer programming" skill, so still a specialist. It all comes down to how narrow we define "specialisation".