6 ms·

It's interesting how back when programs actually ran on your machine, you could just use an older version. I knew people who never upgraded Winamp. Today we do

It's interesting how back when programs actually ran on your machine, you could just use an older version. I knew people who never upgraded Winamp. Today we do know this is problematic (due to security updates mostly) but when it comes to web applications we don't have a choice. Don't like the new look, well tough. If the application has an API (like Reddit) you could write your own or use a better client. I could say that about Gmail/IMAP but their IMAP implementation is shitty and broken. I moved entirely off gmail to self hosted in 2012 and I'm glad I did so I don't have to deal with their interface. When I need webmail, I've got roundcube and it's still nice and fast.

Arnt 8y ago
What precisely is shitty and broken about gmail's IMAP implementation? Gmail's IMAP implementation implements three RFCs I wrote; I haven't noticed anything wrong in those areas. Are my RFCs unusual or am I overlooking something?
- frutiger 8y ago
  Not the GP poster, but the most frustrating thing for me is that GMail labels are implemented as IMAP mailboxes instead of IMAP flags.
  - Arnt 8y ago
    You might be more frustrated if they'd done it the other way; IMAP clients have a terrible habit of downloading the entire mailbox. If they were to expose all mail in one mailbox with flags as the usual case, users with such clients and a lot of mail would suffer.
    - michaelmior 8y ago
      I'm sure that's true, but I assume that many of these clients either wouldn't have been written this way or would have adapted by now if Gmail did things differently.
      - Arnt 8y ago
        Possible. But until those changes are done and deployed, users on mobile connections would do gigabyte-sized downloads and Google's servers would suffer. If a lot of clients do SELECT * FROM *, the DBA will complain a lot until it stops, one way or another. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches; it must have been a nasty choice to make.
        michaelmior 8y ago
        Sure, can't argue with that :)
- lucideer 8y ago
  I'm curious if you've actually used an IMAP client witha Gmail account; if so, which one(s). A sibling comment has already mentioned the folder/flags mixup issue, but while it sounds like one small feature, that one thing is so fundamentally broken that I really can't see how any user of Gmail IMAP would overlook it. I get duplicate notifications for the same mail in INBOX and [Gmail]/All Mail and actions on one copy don't affect the other unless clients implement Gmail-specific hacks (which many/most do). What RFCs are you referring to?
  - izacus 8y ago
    I used Thunderbird and am still using Airmail and they're working without issues for me. Faster, more responsive and better UI than any web crap.
    - lucideer 8y ago
      I've never used Airmail, but the Thunderbird guys have put a lot of years[0] of work into specifically supporting Gmail's weirdness. It's still not as polished as something like macOS Mail (see commenter above)—you can still run into pitfalls syncing all folders/"labels" with special names, or moving emails from one folder/"label" to another, but it works ok. [0] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=402793&hide_resolved=0 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=40279...
  - jghn 8y ago
    I try using pine here and there. Every time I try, whenever I attempt sending a mail it locks my account for suspicious activity
    - avhon1 8y ago
      Same thing happens with my phone (using the K9 email client) whenever I get or send email over a cellular connection.
  - mcv 8y ago
    I use Mail on OS X. I've never had any problems with Gmail. Folders work fine. I never use flags. Notifications work fine. When I delete a message, it's gone. Sometimes it takes a while for the deletion to propagate from one device to another, but I've never had a message survive deletion long term.
- josteink 8y ago
  > What precisely is shitty and broken about gmail's IMAP implementation? Sent emails for one. I’ve written various email integration components and have to make special safe-guards for Gmail-specific crap.
themodelplumber 8y ago
If WinAMP still had support, you could still run it. This is why apps like QMMP exist. I use it to listen to my music because I manage my own playlists and prefer the way it works. On the web, the same thing is possible. My public library's search interface is old, but it's still maintained and I hope it doesn't get this "next level" Gmail-type upgrade. These big upgrades end up rewriting some of the biggest leverage points in the software, so it's as if you went back to the software store and bought a completely different title, in a way. I wish more people could understand that "upgrade" thinking needs more nuance. We lose a lot of value in all of these wasteful efforts to upgrade.
- abtinf 8y ago
  > If WinAMP still had support A company bought Winamp and is supporting/developing it again. A version supporting Windows 10 "leaked" just a few weeks ago. https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/15/winamp-returns-in-2019-to-whip-the-llamas-ass-harder-than-ever/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/15/winamp-returns-in-2019-to-...
- kh_hk 8y ago
  It works with wine just fine
josteink 8y ago
> I could say that about Gmail/IMAP but their IMAP implementation is shitty and broken. I believe the words you are looking for are “embrace” and “extend”. And with undo and DRM in latest Gmail, we might as well add “extinguish”.
- alexis_fr 8y ago
  For those who wonder what “DRM in latest Gmail” means: https://boingboing.net/2018/07/20/not-actually-confidential.html https://boingboing.net/2018/07/20/not-actually-confidential....
zzo38computer 8y ago
I still do run most programs on my own computer; I think is better. Often I write my own. For email, I run my own server and I like Heirloom-mailx as the user program (I find it much better than Outlook), although you can also use others if you like to do.
smsm42 8y ago
I've been using gmail mostly via IMAP for at least a decade and didn't notice any trouble. The only unusual things that I could notice is that gmail has labels, not folders, and some folders live in [Gmail], but otherwise I didn't see any serious trouble there.
- cronix 8y ago
  Same here. I use Thunderbird via IMAP and gmail hasn't slowed down at all in the last 10 years since I've been using it. I don't use their webmail interface or gmail branded mobile app either. Email is email. Use an actual email client.
chongli 8y ago
Yes! I'm using WinAmp 2.95 right now! I run it through Wine and it works perfectly on my Linux PC and my MBP running Mojave. I make it a point to use native apps (which I lump Wine into, since it's not running in the browser) these days. I'm deeply skeptical of the cloud. The whole point seems to be to get us to rent the things we used to own. And if we're not paying the rental fees out of our wallet, then we're paying with our personal data instead.
- jayalpha 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMMS2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMMS2 ?
  - zapzupnz 8y ago
    XMMS 2 or Audacious or Beep, all work well as WinAmp replacements — provided one doesn't rely on WinAmp-specific plugins which are the joy of WinAmp.
    - chongli 8y ago
      Yeah, that's my issue. I rely on multiple WinAmp-specific plugins for which no replacements (that I'm aware of) exist.

Arnt 8y ago

What precisely is shitty and broken about gmail's IMAP implementation? Gmail's IMAP implementation implements three RFCs I wrote; I haven't noticed anything wrong in those areas. Are my RFCs unusual or am I overlooking something?

frutiger 8y ago
Not the GP poster, but the most frustrating thing for me is that GMail labels are implemented as IMAP mailboxes instead of IMAP flags.
- Arnt 8y ago
  You might be more frustrated if they'd done it the other way; IMAP clients have a terrible habit of downloading the entire mailbox. If they were to expose all mail in one mailbox with flags as the usual case, users with such clients and a lot of mail would suffer.
  - michaelmior 8y ago
    I'm sure that's true, but I assume that many of these clients either wouldn't have been written this way or would have adapted by now if Gmail did things differently.
    - Arnt 8y ago
      Possible. But until those changes are done and deployed, users on mobile connections would do gigabyte-sized downloads and Google's servers would suffer. If a lot of clients do SELECT * FROM *, the DBA will complain a lot until it stops, one way or another. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches; it must have been a nasty choice to make.
      - michaelmior 8y ago
        Sure, can't argue with that :)
lucideer 8y ago
I'm curious if you've actually used an IMAP client witha Gmail account; if so, which one(s). A sibling comment has already mentioned the folder/flags mixup issue, but while it sounds like one small feature, that one thing is so fundamentally broken that I really can't see how any user of Gmail IMAP would overlook it. I get duplicate notifications for the same mail in INBOX and [Gmail]/All Mail and actions on one copy don't affect the other unless clients implement Gmail-specific hacks (which many/most do). What RFCs are you referring to?
- izacus 8y ago
  I used Thunderbird and am still using Airmail and they're working without issues for me. Faster, more responsive and better UI than any web crap.
  - lucideer 8y ago
    I've never used Airmail, but the Thunderbird guys have put a lot of years[0] of work into specifically supporting Gmail's weirdness. It's still not as polished as something like macOS Mail (see commenter above)—you can still run into pitfalls syncing all folders/"labels" with special names, or moving emails from one folder/"label" to another, but it works ok. [0] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=402793&hide_resolved=0 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=40279...
- jghn 8y ago
  I try using pine here and there. Every time I try, whenever I attempt sending a mail it locks my account for suspicious activity
  - avhon1 8y ago
    Same thing happens with my phone (using the K9 email client) whenever I get or send email over a cellular connection.
- mcv 8y ago
  I use Mail on OS X. I've never had any problems with Gmail. Folders work fine. I never use flags. Notifications work fine. When I delete a message, it's gone. Sometimes it takes a while for the deletion to propagate from one device to another, but I've never had a message survive deletion long term.
josteink 8y ago
> What precisely is shitty and broken about gmail's IMAP implementation? Sent emails for one. I’ve written various email integration components and have to make special safe-guards for Gmail-specific crap.

themodelplumber 8y ago

If WinAMP still had support, you could still run it. This is why apps like QMMP exist. I use it to listen to my music because I manage my own playlists and prefer the way it works. On the web, the same thing is possible. My public library's search interface is old, but it's still maintained and I hope it doesn't get this "next level" Gmail-type upgrade. These big upgrades end up rewriting some of the biggest leverage points in the software, so it's as if you went back to the software store and bought a completely different title, in a way. I wish more people could understand that "upgrade" thinking needs more nuance. We lose a lot of value in all of these wasteful efforts to upgrade.

abtinf 8y ago
> If WinAMP still had support A company bought Winamp and is supporting/developing it again. A version supporting Windows 10 "leaked" just a few weeks ago. https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/15/winamp-returns-in-2019-to-whip-the-llamas-ass-harder-than-ever/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/15/winamp-returns-in-2019-to-...
kh_hk 8y ago
It works with wine just fine

josteink 8y ago

> I could say that about Gmail/IMAP but their IMAP implementation is shitty and broken. I believe the words you are looking for are “embrace” and “extend”. And with undo and DRM in latest Gmail, we might as well add “extinguish”.

alexis_fr 8y ago
For those who wonder what “DRM in latest Gmail” means: https://boingboing.net/2018/07/20/not-actually-confidential.html https://boingboing.net/2018/07/20/not-actually-confidential....

zzo38computer 8y ago

I still do run most programs on my own computer; I think is better. Often I write my own. For email, I run my own server and I like Heirloom-mailx as the user program (I find it much better than Outlook), although you can also use others if you like to do.

smsm42 8y ago

I've been using gmail mostly via IMAP for at least a decade and didn't notice any trouble. The only unusual things that I could notice is that gmail has labels, not folders, and some folders live in [Gmail], but otherwise I didn't see any serious trouble there.

cronix 8y ago
Same here. I use Thunderbird via IMAP and gmail hasn't slowed down at all in the last 10 years since I've been using it. I don't use their webmail interface or gmail branded mobile app either. Email is email. Use an actual email client.

chongli 8y ago

Yes! I'm using WinAmp 2.95 right now! I run it through Wine and it works perfectly on my Linux PC and my MBP running Mojave. I make it a point to use native apps (which I lump Wine into, since it's not running in the browser) these days. I'm deeply skeptical of the cloud. The whole point seems to be to get us to rent the things we used to own. And if we're not paying the rental fees out of our wallet, then we're paying with our personal data instead.

jayalpha 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMMS2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMMS2 ?
- zapzupnz 8y ago
  XMMS 2 or Audacious or Beep, all work well as WinAmp replacements — provided one doesn't rely on WinAmp-specific plugins which are the joy of WinAmp.
  - chongli 8y ago
    Yeah, that's my issue. I rely on multiple WinAmp-specific plugins for which no replacements (that I'm aware of) exist.