6 ms·

>They're more ... human, maybe, in that a foot is about one human foot long, and that an inch is about one human thumb width, and how 0F feels "pretty cold" and

by blhack 8y ago

>They're more ... human, maybe, in that a foot is about one human foot long, and that an inch is about one human thumb width, and how 0F feels "pretty cold" and 100F feels "pretty hot", and to me the charm of imperial units begins and ends right there. As far as we know, humans are the only thing in the universe that care about any of this stuff. A computer couldn't care less if you are using 1 foot or 0.3048 meters. Why not optimize for humans, the things actually using these things? Optimizing for the computer just seems...silly. It seems like something somebody from the 1970s would have thought was a futuristic idea.

Just_Smith 8y ago
Also, the statement that metric is more useful for measurement largely ignores the fact that Imperial has stuck around so long because of its usefulness in trade work. It's definitely ONLY because of base12, but being base12 - imo - positions it far beyond metric for daily use. There's a reason why food items so commonly come by the dozen. Why would anyone prefer to build a house using a system that can't even accurately measure 1/3?
- naikrovek 8y ago
  1/3 can easily be measured in metric... it's just not a whole number. Far out I can invent a system that is unique to everything, and I can create my own abominable conversion ratios all I like. It doesn't make the system superior, it makes my system necessarily inferior. My TV is now 12 Settos in size. My surround system consumes 12 audots of power. My fridge holds 12 cubic fudo of room. There. Now everything is easily divisible by 12ths. I won't even go into conversion factors on this insanity. Metric is objectively the better system to anyone that doesn't have a decades-long familiarity with the stupidity that is the imperial system. That's coming from an american without a college education, by the way. I am the target demographic for the pro-imperial people. I wasn't abducted into any metric-only education system and forced to convert or fail and disappoint my family. I was a disappointment by my own hand, thank you very much.
  - fingerlocks 8y ago
    I challenge you to make a 1/3 cut in meter length wood using a metric ruler. Must be accurate to 1/128 inch (0.2mm), the tolerance used in fine woodworking.
    - dyarosla 8y ago
      Not only is it trivial to just cut at 33.33 or what have you, your argument breaks down at cut it into 1/5s. Good luck with imperial. And has to be accurate to .02mm. In metric? This is a no brainer
      - Just_Smith 8y ago
        That doesn't really hurt the argument at all - you're just arguing about factors now, and if you're really going to go there, 12 wins due to having more factors. The mathematical correction you'll have to do to measure 1/5th will be displaced by all the correction you don't have to do for other cases.
        naikrovek 8y ago
        You're bent on the whole number thing. Why? Whole numbers don't make things easier to measure or cut or reason about. I can measure in thirds or fifths of a meter or a foot or an inch or any unit you want with a compass and a straight edge. You're arguing that the mark on the tape measure is possible for imperial and impossible for metric, when thirds are involved. Not true.
        Just_Smith 8y ago
        Because infinite numbers are not a natural expression of discrete measurements, and when it comes to being price 1/3 = 4 is always going to be easier to put your finger on than 1/3 = 3.333. I work in software and data analysis in the construction industry. A continuous measurement is good for some things, but it's definitely not good for discrete measurements. Furthermore, a lot of the people who work in the field for construction greatly prefer Imperial for a reason. They have no bias towards systems beyond what works fast and easy.
- kiriakasis 8y ago
  Counterpoint, the us already had undergone industrial revolution and had standardized size on inches. It would have been expensive to restandardize everything
whatshisface 8y ago
I should add to the discussion somewhere that when I write code (or even do calculations) that deals with Imperial units, I just use the SI prefixes and end up with things like centifeet and kiloinches (miles are banished forever). It makes the code a lot easier and the people who are used to Imperial can tell what you're going on about.
naikrovek 8y ago
Because adding 7/16ths of an inch to 7/8ths of a mile and getting an answer in inches isn't easy for a human. Adding 1cm to 982m and getting an answer in centimeters is dead easy for a human. THAT'S why human intuition about measurement doesn't mean a damn thing. Using metric means using the system optimized for humans. Period.
- Just_Smith 8y ago
  Your absolutism is a bit silly. I don't think the Imperial system is good for anything beyond construction or cooking, but there's a reason it excels those areas. And it's exactly because it's more usable by humans in certain contexts (like construction or cooking). 1/3 of a meter should not be an irrational number - how is that "optimized for humans"? A scalable system that shares the divisibility of the foot would certainly trump both systems.
  - tylerhou 8y ago
    Nit: 1/3 of a meter is rational. You're looking for "whole number."
    - Just_Smith 8y ago
      Correct - I've admittedly had a few beers. Which might be obvious due to me debating the merits of the number 12 on the internet.
      - kiriakasis 8y ago
        Well 12 is amazing, but arguably there are too many other negative aspects in the imperial system as a whole.
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      But 1/2 isn't a whole number either. Base-10 absolutism rears its head again. The objection to 1/3 is that it has a non-terminating decimal expansion. This is not a problem if you're using base-anything-with-3-as-a-factor.
Nursie 8y ago
These units are terrible for humans too. Humans are good at base 10. For this human, the relationships when (for instance) talking about water are great - 1g = 1ml = 1cm^3
- afpx 8y ago
  Humans are naturally bad at base 10. This is noticeable when learning counting and arithmetic - children often skip 7 and jumble 6, 7, 8. Base-10 is not so bad once one has learned it, though. Humans are really good at doubling and halving, which the Imperial system excels at.
  - pcnix 8y ago
    That's false, the Imperial system is pretty bad at doubling or halving. What's double of 3.7 feet? Or half of 1.5? What is 3.7 feet even? Is it 3 feet 7 inches or 3 feet plus 7th of a feet (This last question is a nitpick) Any of these in metric are super simple, but just harder to do in base-12.
    - kiriakasis 8y ago
      And I would add, it is not immediate to go from 200 inch to 18 feet 2 inches
    - afpx 8y ago
      In practice, as the previous poster pointed out, Imperial numbers are rational, not real. You wouldn’t normally experience ‘3.7’ feet. Don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not a proponent of the Imperial system (for instance, calculating prices for groceries is painful). I am just pointing out that the metric system doesn’t take into account many Human use cases (Base-10 isn’t great for Humans). It was a system forced upon people by an ‘ivory tower’, and consistent with US philosophy, it makes sense that they rejected it.
      - afpx 8y ago
        Americans are pretty awesome.

by blhack 8y ago

Just_Smith 8y ago

Also, the statement that metric is more useful for measurement largely ignores the fact that Imperial has stuck around so long because of its usefulness in trade work. It's definitely ONLY because of base12, but being base12 - imo - positions it far beyond metric for daily use. There's a reason why food items so commonly come by the dozen. Why would anyone prefer to build a house using a system that can't even accurately measure 1/3?

naikrovek 8y ago
1/3 can easily be measured in metric... it's just not a whole number. Far out I can invent a system that is unique to everything, and I can create my own abominable conversion ratios all I like. It doesn't make the system superior, it makes my system necessarily inferior. My TV is now 12 Settos in size. My surround system consumes 12 audots of power. My fridge holds 12 cubic fudo of room. There. Now everything is easily divisible by 12ths. I won't even go into conversion factors on this insanity. Metric is objectively the better system to anyone that doesn't have a decades-long familiarity with the stupidity that is the imperial system. That's coming from an american without a college education, by the way. I am the target demographic for the pro-imperial people. I wasn't abducted into any metric-only education system and forced to convert or fail and disappoint my family. I was a disappointment by my own hand, thank you very much.
- fingerlocks 8y ago
  I challenge you to make a 1/3 cut in meter length wood using a metric ruler. Must be accurate to 1/128 inch (0.2mm), the tolerance used in fine woodworking.
  - dyarosla 8y ago
    Not only is it trivial to just cut at 33.33 or what have you, your argument breaks down at cut it into 1/5s. Good luck with imperial. And has to be accurate to .02mm. In metric? This is a no brainer
    - Just_Smith 8y ago
      That doesn't really hurt the argument at all - you're just arguing about factors now, and if you're really going to go there, 12 wins due to having more factors. The mathematical correction you'll have to do to measure 1/5th will be displaced by all the correction you don't have to do for other cases.
      - naikrovek 8y ago
        You're bent on the whole number thing. Why? Whole numbers don't make things easier to measure or cut or reason about. I can measure in thirds or fifths of a meter or a foot or an inch or any unit you want with a compass and a straight edge. You're arguing that the mark on the tape measure is possible for imperial and impossible for metric, when thirds are involved. Not true.
        Just_Smith 8y ago
        Because infinite numbers are not a natural expression of discrete measurements, and when it comes to being price 1/3 = 4 is always going to be easier to put your finger on than 1/3 = 3.333. I work in software and data analysis in the construction industry. A continuous measurement is good for some things, but it's definitely not good for discrete measurements. Furthermore, a lot of the people who work in the field for construction greatly prefer Imperial for a reason. They have no bias towards systems beyond what works fast and easy.
kiriakasis 8y ago
Counterpoint, the us already had undergone industrial revolution and had standardized size on inches. It would have been expensive to restandardize everything

whatshisface 8y ago

I should add to the discussion somewhere that when I write code (or even do calculations) that deals with Imperial units, I just use the SI prefixes and end up with things like centifeet and kiloinches (miles are banished forever). It makes the code a lot easier and the people who are used to Imperial can tell what you're going on about.

naikrovek 8y ago

Because adding 7/16ths of an inch to 7/8ths of a mile and getting an answer in inches isn't easy for a human. Adding 1cm to 982m and getting an answer in centimeters is dead easy for a human. THAT'S why human intuition about measurement doesn't mean a damn thing. Using metric means using the system optimized for humans. Period.

Just_Smith 8y ago
Your absolutism is a bit silly. I don't think the Imperial system is good for anything beyond construction or cooking, but there's a reason it excels those areas. And it's exactly because it's more usable by humans in certain contexts (like construction or cooking). 1/3 of a meter should not be an irrational number - how is that "optimized for humans"? A scalable system that shares the divisibility of the foot would certainly trump both systems.
- tylerhou 8y ago
  Nit: 1/3 of a meter is rational. You're looking for "whole number."
  - Just_Smith 8y ago
    Correct - I've admittedly had a few beers. Which might be obvious due to me debating the merits of the number 12 on the internet.
    - kiriakasis 8y ago
      Well 12 is amazing, but arguably there are too many other negative aspects in the imperial system as a whole.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    But 1/2 isn't a whole number either. Base-10 absolutism rears its head again. The objection to 1/3 is that it has a non-terminating decimal expansion. This is not a problem if you're using base-anything-with-3-as-a-factor.

Nursie 8y ago

These units are terrible for humans too. Humans are good at base 10. For this human, the relationships when (for instance) talking about water are great - 1g = 1ml = 1cm^3

afpx 8y ago
Humans are naturally bad at base 10. This is noticeable when learning counting and arithmetic - children often skip 7 and jumble 6, 7, 8. Base-10 is not so bad once one has learned it, though. Humans are really good at doubling and halving, which the Imperial system excels at.
- pcnix 8y ago
  That's false, the Imperial system is pretty bad at doubling or halving. What's double of 3.7 feet? Or half of 1.5? What is 3.7 feet even? Is it 3 feet 7 inches or 3 feet plus 7th of a feet (This last question is a nitpick) Any of these in metric are super simple, but just harder to do in base-12.
  - kiriakasis 8y ago
    And I would add, it is not immediate to go from 200 inch to 18 feet 2 inches
  - afpx 8y ago
    In practice, as the previous poster pointed out, Imperial numbers are rational, not real. You wouldn’t normally experience ‘3.7’ feet. Don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not a proponent of the Imperial system (for instance, calculating prices for groceries is painful). I am just pointing out that the metric system doesn’t take into account many Human use cases (Base-10 isn’t great for Humans). It was a system forced upon people by an ‘ivory tower’, and consistent with US philosophy, it makes sense that they rejected it.
    - afpx 8y ago
      Americans are pretty awesome.