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This isn't why. This is what feminism tells men, that their problems stem from them not being able to handle and process their emotions correctly. That's propag

This isn't why. This is what feminism tells men, that their problems stem from them not being able to handle and process their emotions correctly. That's propaganda. The real reason is more along of the lines of their being less of a safety net for men, less people willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%.

MFLoon 8y ago
Any data to support those assertions? FWIW I think the reasons you point to are just as plausible contributing factors as the ones GP mentions, but there's no reason it can't be both. And dismissing the effects of machismo/toxic masculinity as simply "feminist propaganda" is just not realistic.
- nyolfen 8y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20180304005047/https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e https://web.archive.org/web/20180304005047/https://theblog.o...
otikik 8y ago
> no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%. That's what misogyny tells men.
- shard972 8y ago
  Is this what listening to men looks like? If so I can see why many men don't talk about their issues....
  - zbentley 8y ago
    > Is this what listening to men looks like? Interpreting this as charitably as possible (though I suspect it might be a lost cause): yes, that is exactly what it is. GP didn't suggest that GGP was wrong, stupid, harmful, evil, or any of the above. They understood what GGP wrote, and suggested that it might be based in an opinion formed due to a skewed cultural influence, with the implication that re-examination of said opinion might be in order. That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen.
    - shard972 8y ago
      > That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen. So is it listening or criticising? I'm not even making an argument that the claims either way are wrong or right but when people say listen these days, it's usually implied that you aren't supposed to turn around and criticise them, thats at best giving constructive feedback. I'm just pointing out how men are being told to speak up, but often when they speak up they are spoken down to by the current culture for holding "wrong" views. Considering we are talking about people committing suicide it seems like this isn't exactly helping the situation.
- vuhepuravi 8y ago
  No, these are feelings that men actually have, without anyone telling them anything. And this is a perfect example of how people are often completely unsympathetic with men when we do complain about our problems. I'm not even close to the bottom 10% of men, and I don't feel like I get much attraction from women. It takes a lot of work and failures to even get a single date sometimes. This is a really shitty feeling and is one of the biggest causes of me feeling down. It can really make one feel like a worthless person sometimes.
  - guskel 8y ago
    Men talking about their problems are seen as "whiners" and have various other insults heaped upon them. So they choose to live a life of "quiet desperation" which leads to suicide.
  - otikik 8y ago
    I'm sorry you are having those problems. I was responding to someone who was blaming their problems on feminism without even bothering to google what it meant first. I have no patience for those people. > I don't feel like I get much attraction from women Well I am no expert on that myself, so I can't help you a lot there. I can tell you that the way you phrased it is worrying. Attention (any kind, not just the female one) is not something that is "owed to you". It's not a "right". There are other ways you can look at it: as mutual thing - if you want attention from women, maybe consider paying them attention first. Like, learning what their problems are, and what feminism means. Or see it as a resource, finite and limited. They can only think about so many men in a day. So it is an optimization problem. What would make you stand out? And yes, the physical thing helps in standing out, and so does being rich. Those are not the only levers available though (by all means, do some exercise. It is great for you in any case). Being empathetic helps. Being kind helps. Being assertive helps. Being socially active helps. Those things can be learned if they don't come naturally to you. Heck, just being around women more often than other guys will help (provided that you are not an asshole). Try changing one thing every 15 days, and see what sticks. The worst that can happen is that you live a better life. Don't just complain over the internet without changing anything. In case it helps: I have been married for 7 years and have a child, the "urge" to get attention from women went away in the 3rd or 4th year. I found it quite ... liberating, to be honest. I can't say whether it was due to the fact that I was married or due to reaching certain age (37-ish) though. What I crave these days is free time. Families are like gasses, they expand to occupy all space available.
krapp 8y ago
>This is what feminism tells men, that their problems stem from them not being able to handle and process their emotions correctly. What "feminism" would probably say is that masculine culture doesn't allow men to display emotions as openly as women, especially when those emotions betray a sense of physical or emotional vulnerability. The common term for this is "toxic masculinity," which is often confused by persons like yourself to mean that masculinity itself is toxic, whereas it really means that masculinity can be toxic, and can manifest in negative ways, such as an inability to express one's emotions for fear of being seen as weak, effeminate or possibly gay. This isn't propaganda, it's an obvious and self-evident sociological and cultural phenomenon, a flaw in society, not in men themselves. >and no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%. Oh. I see you've fallen down the rabbithole. It's unfortunate that the lunatic fringe of redpillers and incels seem to taken over and undermined any legitimate credibility the mens' rights movement might have. Women aren't evil, and feminists aren't entirely wrong, and no, aren't driving men to mass suicide because they don't find them attractive.
- fromthestart 8y ago
  >>The common term for this is "toxic masculinity," which is often confused by persons like yourself to mean that masculinity itself is toxic, whereas it really means that masculinity can be toxic, and can manifest in negative ways And what modern feminists like yourself struggle with is that men are inately predisposed more toward certain personality traits than women. You want to talk about obviousness and self evidence? Look at evolutionary pressure. Look at our closest related primates (and most mammals) and how much more agressive males tend to be, and how with, for example, gorillas, few males will mate with many females, while less dominant males go mateless. Yet you do not even consider the possibility that humans are hard wired towards certain average behaviors, that men are almost certainly predisposed towards agression, that females may very well be attracted to dominance (hell, it's all over our culture if you look with an open mind). Instead, you deny biology, hand waving away all discrepancies and differences with words like "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy." You deny the pain and loneliness that unnatractive men experience daily because of factors beyond their control - height, build, facial structure, social difficulty. You cannot fix society by ignoring biology, and you are only alienating these men, who are human beings like you and me, by slandering them as incels for having the same desires for companionship and affirmation unfulfilled while simultaneously blaming them for the problems in society. Pride, agression, drives for achievement and competition, these natural, "toxic" masculine traits BUILT the modern world. Yes, there was plenty of bad along the way, but one cannot ignore all of the good that has resulted from these drives, and in truth, modern society cannot exist without them. Nor should it.
majormajor 8y ago
What makes the least physically attractive men less appealing than the least physically attractive women?
- deanmoriarty 8y ago
  In general, women have way more power than men when it comes to choosing who they mate with, so women are always more appealing than men at the same level of attractiveness. Try an experiment where you sign up an online dating profile for a woman, and see how much action you get as compared to a similar man profile. Or go to a coffee shop and count how many times a woman is being approached by men over an hour, and how many times a man is being approached by a woman (hint: 0)

MFLoon 8y ago

Any data to support those assertions? FWIW I think the reasons you point to are just as plausible contributing factors as the ones GP mentions, but there's no reason it can't be both. And dismissing the effects of machismo/toxic masculinity as simply "feminist propaganda" is just not realistic.

nyolfen 8y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20180304005047/https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e https://web.archive.org/web/20180304005047/https://theblog.o...

otikik 8y ago

> no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%. That's what misogyny tells men.

shard972 8y ago
Is this what listening to men looks like? If so I can see why many men don't talk about their issues....
- zbentley 8y ago
  > Is this what listening to men looks like? Interpreting this as charitably as possible (though I suspect it might be a lost cause): yes, that is exactly what it is. GP didn't suggest that GGP was wrong, stupid, harmful, evil, or any of the above. They understood what GGP wrote, and suggested that it might be based in an opinion formed due to a skewed cultural influence, with the implication that re-examination of said opinion might be in order. That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen.
  - shard972 8y ago
    > That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen. So is it listening or criticising? I'm not even making an argument that the claims either way are wrong or right but when people say listen these days, it's usually implied that you aren't supposed to turn around and criticise them, thats at best giving constructive feedback. I'm just pointing out how men are being told to speak up, but often when they speak up they are spoken down to by the current culture for holding "wrong" views. Considering we are talking about people committing suicide it seems like this isn't exactly helping the situation.
vuhepuravi 8y ago
No, these are feelings that men actually have, without anyone telling them anything. And this is a perfect example of how people are often completely unsympathetic with men when we do complain about our problems. I'm not even close to the bottom 10% of men, and I don't feel like I get much attraction from women. It takes a lot of work and failures to even get a single date sometimes. This is a really shitty feeling and is one of the biggest causes of me feeling down. It can really make one feel like a worthless person sometimes.
- guskel 8y ago
  Men talking about their problems are seen as "whiners" and have various other insults heaped upon them. So they choose to live a life of "quiet desperation" which leads to suicide.
- otikik 8y ago
  I'm sorry you are having those problems. I was responding to someone who was blaming their problems on feminism without even bothering to google what it meant first. I have no patience for those people. > I don't feel like I get much attraction from women Well I am no expert on that myself, so I can't help you a lot there. I can tell you that the way you phrased it is worrying. Attention (any kind, not just the female one) is not something that is "owed to you". It's not a "right". There are other ways you can look at it: as mutual thing - if you want attention from women, maybe consider paying them attention first. Like, learning what their problems are, and what feminism means. Or see it as a resource, finite and limited. They can only think about so many men in a day. So it is an optimization problem. What would make you stand out? And yes, the physical thing helps in standing out, and so does being rich. Those are not the only levers available though (by all means, do some exercise. It is great for you in any case). Being empathetic helps. Being kind helps. Being assertive helps. Being socially active helps. Those things can be learned if they don't come naturally to you. Heck, just being around women more often than other guys will help (provided that you are not an asshole). Try changing one thing every 15 days, and see what sticks. The worst that can happen is that you live a better life. Don't just complain over the internet without changing anything. In case it helps: I have been married for 7 years and have a child, the "urge" to get attention from women went away in the 3rd or 4th year. I found it quite ... liberating, to be honest. I can't say whether it was due to the fact that I was married or due to reaching certain age (37-ish) though. What I crave these days is free time. Families are like gasses, they expand to occupy all space available.

krapp 8y ago

>This is what feminism tells men, that their problems stem from them not being able to handle and process their emotions correctly. What "feminism" would probably say is that masculine culture doesn't allow men to display emotions as openly as women, especially when those emotions betray a sense of physical or emotional vulnerability. The common term for this is "toxic masculinity," which is often confused by persons like yourself to mean that masculinity itself is toxic, whereas it really means that masculinity can be toxic, and can manifest in negative ways, such as an inability to express one's emotions for fear of being seen as weak, effeminate or possibly gay. This isn't propaganda, it's an obvious and self-evident sociological and cultural phenomenon, a flaw in society, not in men themselves. >and no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%. Oh. I see you've fallen down the rabbithole. It's unfortunate that the lunatic fringe of redpillers and incels seem to taken over and undermined any legitimate credibility the mens' rights movement might have. Women aren't evil, and feminists aren't entirely wrong, and no, aren't driving men to mass suicide because they don't find them attractive.

fromthestart 8y ago
>>The common term for this is "toxic masculinity," which is often confused by persons like yourself to mean that masculinity itself is toxic, whereas it really means that masculinity can be toxic, and can manifest in negative ways And what modern feminists like yourself struggle with is that men are inately predisposed more toward certain personality traits than women. You want to talk about obviousness and self evidence? Look at evolutionary pressure. Look at our closest related primates (and most mammals) and how much more agressive males tend to be, and how with, for example, gorillas, few males will mate with many females, while less dominant males go mateless. Yet you do not even consider the possibility that humans are hard wired towards certain average behaviors, that men are almost certainly predisposed towards agression, that females may very well be attracted to dominance (hell, it's all over our culture if you look with an open mind). Instead, you deny biology, hand waving away all discrepancies and differences with words like "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy." You deny the pain and loneliness that unnatractive men experience daily because of factors beyond their control - height, build, facial structure, social difficulty. You cannot fix society by ignoring biology, and you are only alienating these men, who are human beings like you and me, by slandering them as incels for having the same desires for companionship and affirmation unfulfilled while simultaneously blaming them for the problems in society. Pride, agression, drives for achievement and competition, these natural, "toxic" masculine traits BUILT the modern world. Yes, there was plenty of bad along the way, but one cannot ignore all of the good that has resulted from these drives, and in truth, modern society cannot exist without them. Nor should it.

majormajor 8y ago

What makes the least physically attractive men less appealing than the least physically attractive women?

deanmoriarty 8y ago
In general, women have way more power than men when it comes to choosing who they mate with, so women are always more appealing than men at the same level of attractiveness. Try an experiment where you sign up an online dating profile for a woman, and see how much action you get as compared to a similar man profile. Or go to a coffee shop and count how many times a woman is being approached by men over an hour, and how many times a man is being approached by a woman (hint: 0)