4 ms·

> I can't afford to do another sleep study (American Healthcare rocks!). That's the invisible hand of the free market taking care of you!

njarboe 8y ago
Almost nothing about the American healthcare system has anything to do with a free markets. From medical schools, to opening a new hospital, to pricing, to forced insurance, healthcare tied to employment, companies or government pay for almost all of it, FDA drug approval process, etc. Not saying free market and medical are a good mix (who knows?), but what there is in America not is not even a market at all.
- jimison 8y ago
  Touche. Perhaps the rhetoric of free-market-can-solve-everything Libertarians, the get-the-government-out-of-my-health-care Republicans, and the healthcare-is-a-human-right Democrats are all co-opted by America's crony capitalism and we get... this.
- mullingitover 8y ago
  > Not saying free market and medical are a good mix (who knows?), but what there is in America not is not even a market at all. The free market is simply incompatible with health care. Imagine a world where, any time you have a life-threatening health problem, you can expect to transfer everything you own to the hospital, since they have perfect leverage over you.
  - aidenn0 8y ago
    That's not how free markets work. Otherwise food would also cost everything you own.
    - IshKebab 8y ago
      Poor analogy. Food is not generally patented, and people can eat many different kinds of food to live. Would you tell the people that needed epipens "well just have some paracetamol instead".
      - Zak 8y ago
        In a free market, there would be cheap generic alternatives. Epinephrine itself isn't expensive at all (around a dollar a dose), and the autoinjector was patented in 1977, making it long-expired (though modifications of the design are covered by newer patents). There are other examples, such as complex surgeries that would illustrate the point you're trying to make better.
    - jamiek88 8y ago
      Anyone can grow food thus price floor in normal times (and yes everything you own in times of great famine. Diamonds for tripe in WW2 Polish ghettos). Can’t grow a new lung.
    - rocqua 8y ago
      Any kind of food will do to prevent starvation given a slight mix. So, if you won't sell me potato's for a decent price, I'll just get rice from somewhere else. In medicine, you tend to need very specific treatments. This means the set of potential suppliers is much lower, which essentially means the supply is restricted. If you won't sell me an epi-pen for less than 100 dollars, there aren't a lot of places I can turn to. Moreover it's not like open-heart surgery is going to work. Besides, some procedures are just actually expensive. Open-heart surgery takes a lot of labor, organ transplants require intense logistics. Dialysis is a complex and repetitive procedure. The 'fair price' for these in the economic sense is still high. Way to high for most people's morality. Should people really have to chose between death and the bankruptcy of their entire family? Because in a functioning free market, it is near essential that some people have demand for something they can't pay for. So if we turn dialysis, heart surgery, etc. into free markets, there are going to be people who need those treatments that cannot pay for them.
      - brokenmachine 8y ago
        > So if we turn dialysis, heart surgery, etc. into free markets, there are going to be people who need those treatments that cannot pay for them. Isn't that exactly what happens now?
  - db48x 8y ago
    I disagree. If doctors had to compete with each other, then none of them could charge so much.
    - abjorn 8y ago
      It's hard to shop around when you're having a heart attack.
      - db48x 8y ago
        You're supposed to do that _before_ you have a heart attack.
        anticensor 8y ago
        Congrats. You managed make it like telco market, in that everyone will subcsribe to a group of doctor for a long-term contract.
        njarboe 8y ago
        This is how a HMO works in the US and they are very popular due to lower costs than health insurance plans that allows you to go to any doctor/hospital of your choice. My experience with Kaiser in California is that they also provide better service in general, but sometimes don't have the specialty services you might need in their system.
        abjorn 8y ago
        Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 911 operator doesn't ask your preferred doctor before sending an ambulance.
  - axaxs 8y ago
    Not true. Healthcare is pretty much the opposite of a free market. In a true free market, healthcare costs would tank.

njarboe 8y ago

Almost nothing about the American healthcare system has anything to do with a free markets. From medical schools, to opening a new hospital, to pricing, to forced insurance, healthcare tied to employment, companies or government pay for almost all of it, FDA drug approval process, etc. Not saying free market and medical are a good mix (who knows?), but what there is in America not is not even a market at all.

jimison 8y ago
Touche. Perhaps the rhetoric of free-market-can-solve-everything Libertarians, the get-the-government-out-of-my-health-care Republicans, and the healthcare-is-a-human-right Democrats are all co-opted by America's crony capitalism and we get... this.
mullingitover 8y ago
> Not saying free market and medical are a good mix (who knows?), but what there is in America not is not even a market at all. The free market is simply incompatible with health care. Imagine a world where, any time you have a life-threatening health problem, you can expect to transfer everything you own to the hospital, since they have perfect leverage over you.
- aidenn0 8y ago
  That's not how free markets work. Otherwise food would also cost everything you own.
  - IshKebab 8y ago
    Poor analogy. Food is not generally patented, and people can eat many different kinds of food to live. Would you tell the people that needed epipens "well just have some paracetamol instead".
    - Zak 8y ago
      In a free market, there would be cheap generic alternatives. Epinephrine itself isn't expensive at all (around a dollar a dose), and the autoinjector was patented in 1977, making it long-expired (though modifications of the design are covered by newer patents). There are other examples, such as complex surgeries that would illustrate the point you're trying to make better.
  - jamiek88 8y ago
    Anyone can grow food thus price floor in normal times (and yes everything you own in times of great famine. Diamonds for tripe in WW2 Polish ghettos). Can’t grow a new lung.
  - rocqua 8y ago
    Any kind of food will do to prevent starvation given a slight mix. So, if you won't sell me potato's for a decent price, I'll just get rice from somewhere else. In medicine, you tend to need very specific treatments. This means the set of potential suppliers is much lower, which essentially means the supply is restricted. If you won't sell me an epi-pen for less than 100 dollars, there aren't a lot of places I can turn to. Moreover it's not like open-heart surgery is going to work. Besides, some procedures are just actually expensive. Open-heart surgery takes a lot of labor, organ transplants require intense logistics. Dialysis is a complex and repetitive procedure. The 'fair price' for these in the economic sense is still high. Way to high for most people's morality. Should people really have to chose between death and the bankruptcy of their entire family? Because in a functioning free market, it is near essential that some people have demand for something they can't pay for. So if we turn dialysis, heart surgery, etc. into free markets, there are going to be people who need those treatments that cannot pay for them.
    - brokenmachine 8y ago
      > So if we turn dialysis, heart surgery, etc. into free markets, there are going to be people who need those treatments that cannot pay for them. Isn't that exactly what happens now?
- db48x 8y ago
  I disagree. If doctors had to compete with each other, then none of them could charge so much.
  - abjorn 8y ago
    It's hard to shop around when you're having a heart attack.
    - db48x 8y ago
      You're supposed to do that _before_ you have a heart attack.
      - anticensor 8y ago
        Congrats. You managed make it like telco market, in that everyone will subcsribe to a group of doctor for a long-term contract.
        njarboe 8y ago
        This is how a HMO works in the US and they are very popular due to lower costs than health insurance plans that allows you to go to any doctor/hospital of your choice. My experience with Kaiser in California is that they also provide better service in general, but sometimes don't have the specialty services you might need in their system.
      - abjorn 8y ago
        Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 911 operator doesn't ask your preferred doctor before sending an ambulance.
- axaxs 8y ago
  Not true. Healthcare is pretty much the opposite of a free market. In a true free market, healthcare costs would tank.