9 ms·

If you work for Facebook, what do you do in this situation? Can you all please just leave? Is there some acceptable amount of collateral damage for you to main

by ada1981 8y ago

If you work for Facebook, what do you do in this situation? Can you all please just leave? Is there some acceptable amount of collateral damage for you to maintain your lifestyle? I’ll personally help you reconnect to your purpose and go out and live a life you’ve dreamed of. Go start a company better than Facebook and hire all the people.

Mc_Big_G 8y ago
It's pretty clear at this point that if you still work for Facebook you don't care whether they do evil or not and, if you do, the money trumps your morals.
- tzakrajs 8y ago
  Could be a way to advertise that you like collecting money for dubious causes.
- djohnston 8y ago
  i try to be respectful but this is some bs virtue signaling devoid of any nuance and steeped in economic privilege that you were likely fortunate enough to grow up with. you have no right to look down on people working a job you perceive as morally dubious for money. and you seem to think that every job at fb is about glueing eyes to ads. what about people who work on cybersecurity, or counterterrorism, or combating child exploitation? there are thousands of positions where you make measurably good impact on the world. EDIT: you certainly can look down on people for whatever, i just don't think it's justified in this case.
  - jimjansen1 8y ago
    I bet there were Nazi's whose jobs were to feed the poor in Berlin. Doesn't immunize them from what the rest of them were doing.
    - djohnston 8y ago
      yeah that's not a false equivalence or anything
  - vehementi 8y ago
    People working at Facebook are the ones who are economically privileged
  - Mc_Big_G 8y ago
    If you can get hired at Facebook you can get hired anywhere. Seriously.
    - djohnston 8y ago
      that's true, there are other opportunities, but i don't think it's fair to make a blanket character assessment of these people just because of the organization they work for. in a similar vein, i wouldn't condemn someone who works at Exxon building analytics software, or engineering some rig valve, but i WOULD condemn someone who works there with the responsibility of absolving oil & gas from any responsibility for climate change. is my position wrong? honestly im a bit unsure if it makes any sense.
      - Mc_Big_G 8y ago
        If you vehemently disagree with the core business of a company and you can easily find an equivalent job at a better company, why does your position in that company have any impact on your decision to work for that company? How is building analytics software for Exxon to help them produce oil any better than a lawyer who works to ensure they can continue producing oil? As the engineer, you know your company is "working to absolve the industry from any responsibility for climate change" You know that's wrong but you can dismiss your responsibility in helping them grow and be successful? This is just lying to yourself.
        djohnston 8y ago
        yeah, i think you're right, particularly with this example. the position i gave of analytics software was a bit contrived and off the mark for the point i was trying to make. a better example would be, "engineer whose job it is to reduce the deleterious effects of burning oil on the environment" or something like that, which is more analogous to the position of trying to remove harmful content at fb
  - hluska 8y ago
    With all due respect, you have absolutely no reason to speak to anyone like this. Phrases like "bs virtue signalling" are not only rude, but they make it extremely hard to engage with you. Part of engaging in dialogue is accepting that people are free to believe whatever they want.
    - djohnston 8y ago
      we are engaging fine, it's ok. i removed the harsher wording that was admittedly knee-jerk, although "bs virtue signaling" is still a bit rough around the edges
- jimjansen1 8y ago
  You could probably say that about 90% of the people in the Bay Area.
drharby 8y ago
Not at fb, but if this is a genuine call to promote disruption via career activisim, its heartwarming. That said, i feel like it may merely delay some timelines as tje queue for working there is large
- GauntletWizard 8y ago
  The queue is large, but the number of engineers capable of working competently at Facebook's scale is not. They already had a code quality issue when I was there (briefly, leaving for reasons of conscience) - the site will fall down and never recover if they have to replace the right 10% of their engineers.
joering2 8y ago
I know I'm being extreme her but just playing devil advocate here for a second and responding to your question regarding acceptance amount: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials If you read it carefully you can see each one of them never truly felt they are at any blame till their last breadth. If as humanity some of us could be put in charge of putting fellow humans through gas chambers and treat it as "just another job", then I doubt some engineer at Facebook coding all day would have a guilty conscience. Edit: I stand corrected - only FEW of these felt like they were at any fault at all.
- turc1656 8y ago
  "...each one of them never truly felt they are at any blame till their last breadth" That's not accurate, even based on the link that you provided. That page explicitly states that 5 of the 24 in that table "expressed repentance" in the notes.
cproctor 8y ago
Future interview question for a company with a mission statement it takes seriously: "I see that you worked at fb from 2018 on. Tell me about your broader career goals and how that fits into them." If employers publicized such questions now, it could discount the future value of having worked at fb.
notJim 8y ago
The best thing is probably something similar to what people at Google have done, with respect to Project Maven and the China stuff, as well as the recent walk-outs. If you just leave, nothing changes. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/technology/google-pentagon-project-maven.html?module=inline https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/technology/google-pentago... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/technology/google-employees-protest-search-censored-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/technology/google-employe...
- jsilvers 8y ago
  Google updated their sexual misconduct policy as a result of employees taking action and speaking out. The policy is a good iteration, but moreover, symbolically it means a great deal for a company of that size to show it listens. I don't work at Google but can only assume that these changes have changed the culture for the better.
peterlk 8y ago
Also, if you use facebook, stop. I haven't used facebook in years, and I feel pretty fine. I still have friends; we hang out; we show each other pictures. And, best of all, our communication isn't being injected with ads meant to distract us from communicating with each other. Texting, email, slack, whatsapp (yes, I know), signal, discord, and gchat work pretty well. If you're a user of FB, stop, and their power over you and your friends will begin to evaporate (if that's something you're concerned about)
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Seconded! I "deleted" my account some 5 years ago. Just to add: I also don't use Whatsapp. I refuse to touch any property, which is connected in any way with this evil, slimy carbuncle of a company. No matter if I'm slightly inconvenienced in the process.
- nbar1 8y ago
  I feel like at this point, anyone using Facebook still is using it because of their addiction or for business purposes.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    I see it as much more like Linkedin - I have to maintain a presence to communicate with a few people, but I don't spend my free time there.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      When your product is compared to Linkedin, you’ve gone way off piste.
  - flatline 8y ago
    I occasionally share kid pics with relatives, and keep in touch with the martial arts school I attend. It's a perfectly fine tool for me, but I see how everyone else uses it and it makes me feel slightly sick each time I open it up.
  - 8y ago
smacktoward 8y ago
If they leave, they'll just be replaced by others who are willing to do what they weren't. The allure of wealth and status is powerful, especially in a time when people are divided into a small group that does extremely well and a much larger one that has to work harder every day just to get by. The solution for Facebook employees is not to leave, it's to organize. If Facebook employees were organized they'd have power, and then they could use that power to force management to stop running the company in ways that make them ashamed to tell people they work there.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  If they leave, they'll just be replaced by others who are willing to do what they weren't. Which, alas, may not be the best and the brightest.
  - smacktoward 8y ago
    "The graveyards are full of people the world could not do without." -- Elbert Hubbard
- matt4077 8y ago
  Leaving is strictly better that organising, because at a first approximation they could just make you leave if it were different. Which they would never do. The argument about others just replacing you is, of course, best known from chess, where it's called the "German Defense" and consists of everyone pretending they are just pawns. Practically, there is also the almost tautological fact that whatever replacement can be found is second-best (if that). With these tech giants essentially hiring everyone that meets requirements, 20% of tech workers taking a stand will effectively mean a reduction of their workforce by the same amount, unless they are willing to lower standards.
ptero 8y ago
I agree in spirit, but just-leave-now is the wrong remedy. Sorry. There is no rush -- quick outrages, emotional appeals and media frenzy are poor guides for major life decisions. Do consider leaving if you think it is warranted (personally, I do), but do not rush. Write a short note to yourself on what you want to do and why, then think hard about this at least once a week, but keep going for a month. If in a month this still seems like the way to go, leave (and if not, stay; there is no shame it that). That way you also build up resolve to stick to your guns if you get a last minute appeal to stay -- this is a lot easier if you thought about your decision for a long time and decided that what you are doing is right for you. My 2c.
- matt4077 8y ago
  Nah, just leave. Tomorrow morning. Unless you need a few days to download a few internal documents that you believe the world should see. If you work at Facebook, I'm reasonably certain you (including family) won't starve. By delaying you will also risk losing the courage of conviction. Because anger dulls over time. Delaying also diminishes the effect of leaving, because the causality is no longer obvious. Imagine the power a mass exodus would have! With the significance the workforce has in this sector, it would instantly become the most significant motivation to behave ethically beyond the minimum required by law.
  - hnuser355 8y ago
    Wooo encouraging strangers to make impulsive financial/career decisions
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - hindsightRegret 8y ago
    Troll. It's easy to post outrage on the internet; it's much, much harder to take real action. People have mortgages, car payments and kids. It's not like those just go away when you leave a job. Most people don't have liquid savings that will last them more than 6+ months - especially with families. I don't work at Facebook, but I don't think it's fair to expect the workers to abandon ship when it's the leadership piloting their Titantic. There's also an argument to be made for fixing the problem from within that you don't even consider.
xvedejas 8y ago
I have a couple friends who work there. As far as I can tell they're not interested in all the political news about Facebook and are probably not aware of most of it. Their attitudes are typically "if the management messes up, but I'm just building cool useful tools, I'm not part of the problem". And honestly, I kinda sympathize. Facebook can be a shitty company regardless of whether they're also building good infrastructure.
- givinguflac 8y ago
  I definitely don’t/can’t sympathize with those people. It’s about personal responsibility, and they’ve found a lovely modern way to say “I was just following orders.”
  - xvedejas 8y ago
    They're not the ones deciding, nor the ones carrying out unethical actions. Employees working on technical infrastructure are not even enabling censorship or fake news, that's been possible on any centralized social media site forever. I don't see how "I was just following orders" even applies here.
    - givinguflac 8y ago
      Anyone intelligent enough to be building these tools should have a good idea of how it can be misused. It’s not like Facebook has a solid history of doing the right thing.
dawhizkid 8y ago
At a certain point in a company's lifecycle, you go from attracting people who are excited by the mission to people who are there for the money. Facebook has long shifted from the first to the second phase. I don't think things that have happened recently will phase most people who work there unless it materially hurts their share price.
dominotw 8y ago
Yess. Please leave. More job openings for me.
rage-thaw 8y ago
Instead of just leaving Facebook (or Google or whatever), they should put pressure on the company they work for and try to make some influence. If all the `ethically conscious' engineers leave FB (which will not happen), what FB will do is that it just recruit engineers who are less aware of the wrongdoing of FB, who are less likely to challenge a company policy that people consider unethical. Think of Google and DoD. If those Google employees who opposed the deal all walk away, then Google will just carry on working with DoD and let engineers who don't care if their work will be used to kill people to work on it. (Using a green account because I don't want the above rant to appear in my main account's posting history.)
rv-de 8y ago
Why don't you start with removing the Facebook share button on your website?
- periya 8y ago
  You hit the nail on the head. It's super easy to attack employees of these corporations when people won't even evaluate their decisions. If you were to evaluate each of the big companies, most of them have done some really shady stuff to get a leg up.
- ada1981 8y ago
  Which website? Happy to. (Many of the websites out there I’ve created are legacy or not longer maintained by me.)
  - rv-de 8y ago
    The one you reference in your HN profile.
    - ada1981 8y ago
      Changed the link in my HN profile, will remove The share button when that site is redone. Thanks!

Mc_Big_G 8y ago

It's pretty clear at this point that if you still work for Facebook you don't care whether they do evil or not and, if you do, the money trumps your morals.

tzakrajs 8y ago
Could be a way to advertise that you like collecting money for dubious causes.
djohnston 8y ago
i try to be respectful but this is some bs virtue signaling devoid of any nuance and steeped in economic privilege that you were likely fortunate enough to grow up with. you have no right to look down on people working a job you perceive as morally dubious for money. and you seem to think that every job at fb is about glueing eyes to ads. what about people who work on cybersecurity, or counterterrorism, or combating child exploitation? there are thousands of positions where you make measurably good impact on the world. EDIT: you certainly can look down on people for whatever, i just don't think it's justified in this case.
- jimjansen1 8y ago
  I bet there were Nazi's whose jobs were to feed the poor in Berlin. Doesn't immunize them from what the rest of them were doing.
  - djohnston 8y ago
    yeah that's not a false equivalence or anything
- vehementi 8y ago
  People working at Facebook are the ones who are economically privileged
- Mc_Big_G 8y ago
  If you can get hired at Facebook you can get hired anywhere. Seriously.
  - djohnston 8y ago
    that's true, there are other opportunities, but i don't think it's fair to make a blanket character assessment of these people just because of the organization they work for. in a similar vein, i wouldn't condemn someone who works at Exxon building analytics software, or engineering some rig valve, but i WOULD condemn someone who works there with the responsibility of absolving oil & gas from any responsibility for climate change. is my position wrong? honestly im a bit unsure if it makes any sense.
    - Mc_Big_G 8y ago
      If you vehemently disagree with the core business of a company and you can easily find an equivalent job at a better company, why does your position in that company have any impact on your decision to work for that company? How is building analytics software for Exxon to help them produce oil any better than a lawyer who works to ensure they can continue producing oil? As the engineer, you know your company is "working to absolve the industry from any responsibility for climate change" You know that's wrong but you can dismiss your responsibility in helping them grow and be successful? This is just lying to yourself.
      - djohnston 8y ago
        yeah, i think you're right, particularly with this example. the position i gave of analytics software was a bit contrived and off the mark for the point i was trying to make. a better example would be, "engineer whose job it is to reduce the deleterious effects of burning oil on the environment" or something like that, which is more analogous to the position of trying to remove harmful content at fb
- hluska 8y ago
  With all due respect, you have absolutely no reason to speak to anyone like this. Phrases like "bs virtue signalling" are not only rude, but they make it extremely hard to engage with you. Part of engaging in dialogue is accepting that people are free to believe whatever they want.
  - djohnston 8y ago
    we are engaging fine, it's ok. i removed the harsher wording that was admittedly knee-jerk, although "bs virtue signaling" is still a bit rough around the edges
jimjansen1 8y ago
You could probably say that about 90% of the people in the Bay Area.

drharby 8y ago

Not at fb, but if this is a genuine call to promote disruption via career activisim, its heartwarming. That said, i feel like it may merely delay some timelines as tje queue for working there is large

GauntletWizard 8y ago
The queue is large, but the number of engineers capable of working competently at Facebook's scale is not. They already had a code quality issue when I was there (briefly, leaving for reasons of conscience) - the site will fall down and never recover if they have to replace the right 10% of their engineers.

joering2 8y ago

I know I'm being extreme her but just playing devil advocate here for a second and responding to your question regarding acceptance amount: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials If you read it carefully you can see each one of them never truly felt they are at any blame till their last breadth. If as humanity some of us could be put in charge of putting fellow humans through gas chambers and treat it as "just another job", then I doubt some engineer at Facebook coding all day would have a guilty conscience. Edit: I stand corrected - only FEW of these felt like they were at any fault at all.

turc1656 8y ago
"...each one of them never truly felt they are at any blame till their last breadth" That's not accurate, even based on the link that you provided. That page explicitly states that 5 of the 24 in that table "expressed repentance" in the notes.

cproctor 8y ago

Future interview question for a company with a mission statement it takes seriously: "I see that you worked at fb from 2018 on. Tell me about your broader career goals and how that fits into them." If employers publicized such questions now, it could discount the future value of having worked at fb.

notJim 8y ago

The best thing is probably something similar to what people at Google have done, with respect to Project Maven and the China stuff, as well as the recent walk-outs. If you just leave, nothing changes. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/technology/google-pentagon-project-maven.html?module=inline https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/technology/google-pentago... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/technology/google-employees-protest-search-censored-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/technology/google-employe...

jsilvers 8y ago
Google updated their sexual misconduct policy as a result of employees taking action and speaking out. The policy is a good iteration, but moreover, symbolically it means a great deal for a company of that size to show it listens. I don't work at Google but can only assume that these changes have changed the culture for the better.

peterlk 8y ago

Also, if you use facebook, stop. I haven't used facebook in years, and I feel pretty fine. I still have friends; we hang out; we show each other pictures. And, best of all, our communication isn't being injected with ads meant to distract us from communicating with each other. Texting, email, slack, whatsapp (yes, I know), signal, discord, and gchat work pretty well. If you're a user of FB, stop, and their power over you and your friends will begin to evaporate (if that's something you're concerned about)

CaptainZapp 8y ago
Seconded! I "deleted" my account some 5 years ago. Just to add: I also don't use Whatsapp. I refuse to touch any property, which is connected in any way with this evil, slimy carbuncle of a company. No matter if I'm slightly inconvenienced in the process.
nbar1 8y ago
I feel like at this point, anyone using Facebook still is using it because of their addiction or for business purposes.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  I see it as much more like Linkedin - I have to maintain a presence to communicate with a few people, but I don't spend my free time there.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    When your product is compared to Linkedin, you’ve gone way off piste.
- flatline 8y ago
  I occasionally share kid pics with relatives, and keep in touch with the martial arts school I attend. It's a perfectly fine tool for me, but I see how everyone else uses it and it makes me feel slightly sick each time I open it up.
- 8y ago

smacktoward 8y ago

If they leave, they'll just be replaced by others who are willing to do what they weren't. The allure of wealth and status is powerful, especially in a time when people are divided into a small group that does extremely well and a much larger one that has to work harder every day just to get by. The solution for Facebook employees is not to leave, it's to organize. If Facebook employees were organized they'd have power, and then they could use that power to force management to stop running the company in ways that make them ashamed to tell people they work there.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
If they leave, they'll just be replaced by others who are willing to do what they weren't. Which, alas, may not be the best and the brightest.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  "The graveyards are full of people the world could not do without." -- Elbert Hubbard
matt4077 8y ago
Leaving is strictly better that organising, because at a first approximation they could just make you leave if it were different. Which they would never do. The argument about others just replacing you is, of course, best known from chess, where it's called the "German Defense" and consists of everyone pretending they are just pawns. Practically, there is also the almost tautological fact that whatever replacement can be found is second-best (if that). With these tech giants essentially hiring everyone that meets requirements, 20% of tech workers taking a stand will effectively mean a reduction of their workforce by the same amount, unless they are willing to lower standards.

ptero 8y ago

I agree in spirit, but just-leave-now is the wrong remedy. Sorry. There is no rush -- quick outrages, emotional appeals and media frenzy are poor guides for major life decisions. Do consider leaving if you think it is warranted (personally, I do), but do not rush. Write a short note to yourself on what you want to do and why, then think hard about this at least once a week, but keep going for a month. If in a month this still seems like the way to go, leave (and if not, stay; there is no shame it that). That way you also build up resolve to stick to your guns if you get a last minute appeal to stay -- this is a lot easier if you thought about your decision for a long time and decided that what you are doing is right for you. My 2c.

matt4077 8y ago
Nah, just leave. Tomorrow morning. Unless you need a few days to download a few internal documents that you believe the world should see. If you work at Facebook, I'm reasonably certain you (including family) won't starve. By delaying you will also risk losing the courage of conviction. Because anger dulls over time. Delaying also diminishes the effect of leaving, because the causality is no longer obvious. Imagine the power a mass exodus would have! With the significance the workforce has in this sector, it would instantly become the most significant motivation to behave ethically beyond the minimum required by law.
- hnuser355 8y ago
  Wooo encouraging strangers to make impulsive financial/career decisions
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- hindsightRegret 8y ago
  Troll. It's easy to post outrage on the internet; it's much, much harder to take real action. People have mortgages, car payments and kids. It's not like those just go away when you leave a job. Most people don't have liquid savings that will last them more than 6+ months - especially with families. I don't work at Facebook, but I don't think it's fair to expect the workers to abandon ship when it's the leadership piloting their Titantic. There's also an argument to be made for fixing the problem from within that you don't even consider.

xvedejas 8y ago

I have a couple friends who work there. As far as I can tell they're not interested in all the political news about Facebook and are probably not aware of most of it. Their attitudes are typically "if the management messes up, but I'm just building cool useful tools, I'm not part of the problem". And honestly, I kinda sympathize. Facebook can be a shitty company regardless of whether they're also building good infrastructure.

givinguflac 8y ago
I definitely don’t/can’t sympathize with those people. It’s about personal responsibility, and they’ve found a lovely modern way to say “I was just following orders.”
- xvedejas 8y ago
  They're not the ones deciding, nor the ones carrying out unethical actions. Employees working on technical infrastructure are not even enabling censorship or fake news, that's been possible on any centralized social media site forever. I don't see how "I was just following orders" even applies here.
  - givinguflac 8y ago
    Anyone intelligent enough to be building these tools should have a good idea of how it can be misused. It’s not like Facebook has a solid history of doing the right thing.

dawhizkid 8y ago

At a certain point in a company's lifecycle, you go from attracting people who are excited by the mission to people who are there for the money. Facebook has long shifted from the first to the second phase. I don't think things that have happened recently will phase most people who work there unless it materially hurts their share price.

dominotw 8y ago

Yess. Please leave. More job openings for me.

rage-thaw 8y ago

Instead of just leaving Facebook (or Google or whatever), they should put pressure on the company they work for and try to make some influence. If all the `ethically conscious' engineers leave FB (which will not happen), what FB will do is that it just recruit engineers who are less aware of the wrongdoing of FB, who are less likely to challenge a company policy that people consider unethical. Think of Google and DoD. If those Google employees who opposed the deal all walk away, then Google will just carry on working with DoD and let engineers who don't care if their work will be used to kill people to work on it. (Using a green account because I don't want the above rant to appear in my main account's posting history.)

rv-de 8y ago

Why don't you start with removing the Facebook share button on your website?

periya 8y ago
You hit the nail on the head. It's super easy to attack employees of these corporations when people won't even evaluate their decisions. If you were to evaluate each of the big companies, most of them have done some really shady stuff to get a leg up.
ada1981 8y ago
Which website? Happy to. (Many of the websites out there I’ve created are legacy or not longer maintained by me.)
- rv-de 8y ago
  The one you reference in your HN profile.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    Changed the link in my HN profile, will remove The share button when that site is redone. Thanks!