3 ms·

This is a great example of someone who wants to pretend that the market doesn’t exist, like the previous poster said. You can draw this argument to its logical

by woah 8y ago

This is a great example of someone who wants to pretend that the market doesn’t exist, like the previous poster said. You can draw this argument to its logical conclusion and argue that any good that somebody needs is “not a free market”. The food market is obviously not free because you need to eat. The car market is not free because a lot of people need to drive to work. The plumbing market is not free because sanitation is essential. I won’t comment on the relative effectiveness of free vs centrally planned economies, just pointing out the logical fallacy above.

mcv 8y ago
I'm not pretending the market doesn't exist, I just explain some of its limitations. I admit I could have explained this better. The thing that matters is choice. Without it, there's no free market. Healthcare is not a free market for urgent issues because you can't afford to shop around. Especially if an ambulance is involved, you just get taken to the nearest hospital. Depending on where you live, you may not be able to shop around much for non-emergency issues either. With jobs, people with ample financial reserves can afford to shop around, but people who live paycheck to paycheck can't. With food, well, it depends on how many different places sell food. Fortunately, there's usually no shortage of shops selling food. The market for expensive food is absolutely free, because I can say no and eat something cheap instead. But the market for cheap food does indeed not behave like a normal free market, as any economist can tell you: when prices for the cheapest foods go up, people will actually buy more, because they won't be able to afford more expensive food. And if one company had a monopoly on all food and set prices for all food high, it would not be a free market anymore, though that's true for any monopoly. Still, if it were a monopoly on something non-essential, people could still say no. A free market requires competition. When no competition is possible, there's no free market. When there's an army of unemployed people desperately hunting for jobs, companies can afford to be picky and underpay them; there's no meaningful competition to hire those people, who can't afford to say no, because the only alternative for them is to be unemployed. This can lead to a situation where even people with a job have trouble making ends meet.
kingaillas 8y ago
You are being willfully ignorant and have a poor grasp of what a "free market" is. Healthcare isn't a "free market" because of massive information asymmetry (detailed prices for services, consumer education needed to evaluate information), high barrier to competition, and of course the literal product being your life. Whereas cars are much closer to a free market. Sure, you might need to drive to work, or you can take a bus or other public transportation, ride a bike, walk, move closer or to another area somewhere this is easier to do, find a job that lets you work from home, etc. If you choose to buy a car you can gather tons of information, pick a product to fit your specific budget, and end up with something that works everywhere. You can sell the product in the future. Contrast this with healthcare where you can't generally evaluate the information, have minimal to no pricing choices (especially in certain time sensitive situations), etc.
- tynpeddler 8y ago
  Even a good you're compelled to buy can be obtained through a free market. Cars are the perfect example because contrary to your understanding, they are actually a basic requirement for a huge number of people. In addition, the vast majority of healthcare expenditures are not emergency, and aren't complicated so there's no reason why people can't obtain a diagnosis from one place and then seek out the best place to actually receive the treatment.
  - srean 8y ago
    The problem lies in executing that "seek out the best place to actually receive the treatment". Its hard when healthcare givers do not give a quote or outright misleads. Readers who are not familiar with the American way might find that hard to believe.
  - chrisBob 8y ago
    How does the free market account for the cost of researching options? I am sure I could find a better deal on many medical purchases, but the cost to find them is significant. Purchasing the default/readily-available option is often the best bet because of the hours or days required to find a better solution. Spending a few hours to save $100 or a few days to save $1000 is a clear loss to me.
rootusrootus 8y ago
For the last couple weeks I've been trying repeatedly to vote with my wallet. Since nobody will tell me how much any of this is going to cost, I have zero ability to do that. It is extremely frustrating.
nkassis 8y ago
Personally I don't view the problem as being about healthcare being a market or not, I view the problem as what a free market optimizes for. Finding the price at which the market clears is very different then optimizing for cost effectively improving the health and wellness of everyone in a society. Sometimes the free market purpose matches with the broader societal goal well, other times it does not.

by woah 8y ago

mcv 8y ago

I'm not pretending the market doesn't exist, I just explain some of its limitations. I admit I could have explained this better. The thing that matters is choice. Without it, there's no free market. Healthcare is not a free market for urgent issues because you can't afford to shop around. Especially if an ambulance is involved, you just get taken to the nearest hospital. Depending on where you live, you may not be able to shop around much for non-emergency issues either. With jobs, people with ample financial reserves can afford to shop around, but people who live paycheck to paycheck can't. With food, well, it depends on how many different places sell food. Fortunately, there's usually no shortage of shops selling food. The market for expensive food is absolutely free, because I can say no and eat something cheap instead. But the market for cheap food does indeed not behave like a normal free market, as any economist can tell you: when prices for the cheapest foods go up, people will actually buy more, because they won't be able to afford more expensive food. And if one company had a monopoly on all food and set prices for all food high, it would not be a free market anymore, though that's true for any monopoly. Still, if it were a monopoly on something non-essential, people could still say no. A free market requires competition. When no competition is possible, there's no free market. When there's an army of unemployed people desperately hunting for jobs, companies can afford to be picky and underpay them; there's no meaningful competition to hire those people, who can't afford to say no, because the only alternative for them is to be unemployed. This can lead to a situation where even people with a job have trouble making ends meet.

kingaillas 8y ago

You are being willfully ignorant and have a poor grasp of what a "free market" is. Healthcare isn't a "free market" because of massive information asymmetry (detailed prices for services, consumer education needed to evaluate information), high barrier to competition, and of course the literal product being your life. Whereas cars are much closer to a free market. Sure, you might need to drive to work, or you can take a bus or other public transportation, ride a bike, walk, move closer or to another area somewhere this is easier to do, find a job that lets you work from home, etc. If you choose to buy a car you can gather tons of information, pick a product to fit your specific budget, and end up with something that works everywhere. You can sell the product in the future. Contrast this with healthcare where you can't generally evaluate the information, have minimal to no pricing choices (especially in certain time sensitive situations), etc.

tynpeddler 8y ago
Even a good you're compelled to buy can be obtained through a free market. Cars are the perfect example because contrary to your understanding, they are actually a basic requirement for a huge number of people. In addition, the vast majority of healthcare expenditures are not emergency, and aren't complicated so there's no reason why people can't obtain a diagnosis from one place and then seek out the best place to actually receive the treatment.
- srean 8y ago
  The problem lies in executing that "seek out the best place to actually receive the treatment". Its hard when healthcare givers do not give a quote or outright misleads. Readers who are not familiar with the American way might find that hard to believe.
- chrisBob 8y ago
  How does the free market account for the cost of researching options? I am sure I could find a better deal on many medical purchases, but the cost to find them is significant. Purchasing the default/readily-available option is often the best bet because of the hours or days required to find a better solution. Spending a few hours to save $100 or a few days to save $1000 is a clear loss to me.

rootusrootus 8y ago

For the last couple weeks I've been trying repeatedly to vote with my wallet. Since nobody will tell me how much any of this is going to cost, I have zero ability to do that. It is extremely frustrating.

nkassis 8y ago

Personally I don't view the problem as being about healthcare being a market or not, I view the problem as what a free market optimizes for. Finding the price at which the market clears is very different then optimizing for cost effectively improving the health and wellness of everyone in a society. Sometimes the free market purpose matches with the broader societal goal well, other times it does not.