4 ms·

No matter how much you want to blame the police for this, keep in mind that if you did this in a thousand neighborhoods with many different police officers and

No matter how much you want to blame the police for this, keep in mind that if you did this in a thousand neighborhoods with many different police officers and jurisdictions, many many many more people would die. In my eyes nearly 99% of the guilt is in the man that falsely called this in. That doesn't mean more training couldn't hurt, but at a certain point, training in a live situation will always go out the window. People are not perfect.

izacus 8y ago
> No matter how much you want to blame the police for this, keep in mind that if you did this in a thousand neighborhoods with many different police officers and jurisdictions, many many many more people would die. In my eyes nearly 99% of the guilt is in the man that falsely called this in. No, sorry, but the first task for the police is to protect innocent civilians. Even if it causes harm to the policemen themselves (this is why they get all those jackets and equipment). Murdering them is not protecting, how can you defend the type of police that goes and kills a gamer in his house with no other proof than a phone call?
- rhizome 8y ago
  Even if it causes harm to the policemen themselves (this is why they get all those jackets and equipment) On the other hand, the First Rule of Policing is "get home for dinner."
  - LunaSea 8y ago
    I'm a software developer but maybe I should get payed as a police officer on top my regular wage since that's my rule as well. Actually, you might as well give me a raise because I haven't killed anybody in the process either.
    - CompanionCuuube 8y ago
      The primary oath of doctors is "do no harm". Maybe you should get payed as a doctor too since that's your rule as well. You haven't killed anyone due to medical error either so you also deserve that raise.
      - timeseries2018 8y ago
        paid
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    Maybe we should demand better of a group of people we legally allowed to raid people's homes with deadly force.
    - rhizome 8y ago
      We do (for certain values of "we"). Get involved!
  - izacus 8y ago
    > On the other hand, the First Rule of Policing is "get home for dinner." Is that in US? Because in my EU country, "Protect life" is pretty much what they're trained to do. That includes life of civilians, themselves and criminals in this order. Killing anyone is seen as a failure which results in an investigation into why hurting someone was necessary.
    - jki275 8y ago
      Yes, that's in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
  - ruds 8y ago
    I find that rule nowhere in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
- vorpalhex 8y ago
  > the first task for the police is to protect innocent civilians The first task for police is to keep crime reduced. Notice the police don't usually arrive until after a crime has happened. Not to say they won't genuinely do their best to help you, but that isn't their job. Their job is to keep crime down. The only person responsible for your safety and protection is yourself. > Even if it causes harm to the policemen themselves A fair bit of cops get killed in the line of duty. A lot more are "lucky" and only get injured - that might mean losing an eye, permanent spinal cord injuries, or just losing a few fingers or toes. Sucks to be the police officer, also sucks to be their family. Cops deal with the worst of the worst on a daily basis - the rapists, the murderers, the drug dealers - and they have to constantly make life and death decisions. Is that junkie reaching into their pocket to grab their ID or a used needle to stab you with? Would you take a bullet for a serial rapist or a spouse abuser? It's easy to cast stones. It's a lot harder to be the one driving up to a potential hostage situation where innocent lives may depend on you. Sure, it might be a prank - or it could absolutely be a barricaded suspect with innocent family inside the house with them.
jokoon 8y ago
I think the phenomena of swatters is really highlighting how the police can be dangerous towards innocent people. > keep in mind that if you did this in a thousand neighborhoods Sure, but if so few people can cause so much damage only with a phone, do you really think the police is still not part of the cause of the problem? I don't think it's worth it to have the police react this way to a call. I'd rather see criminals get away than innocent die because of swatters. > People are not perfect. Exactly, and that's the same for swatters, you will always have a good supply of people idiot enough to do that. So what is the solution, putting future idiots in jail and let future innocents die of swatting? I'm not american and I often hear about police issues in the US.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > I think the phenomena of swatters is really highlighting how the police can be dangerous towards innocent people. The phenomenon of police shooting innocent people without a SWATter being involved seems to be a more powerful and direct illustration of that, but, sure.
- CompanionCuuube 8y ago
  > I'd rather see criminals get away than innocent die because of swatters. The emphasis on speed is not to arrest the criminal but to stop innocents from dying. Swatting calls always involve hostages.
altmind 8y ago
If the police kills an unarmed and innocent man, it definitely means that police in general is not acting efficiently. Right now, I see no movement with police higher officers to improve police response protocols to reduce fatal encounters. The narrative is not about "all people are different" and "some neighborhoods are bad" and not about "some officers can use more training"; I think there is an institutional problem, with police protocols that prescribe police chasing/hunting, swarming, incapacitating, shooting, all topped up with officers having no strong knowledge of the law, and not being punishable for lying on duty and unnecessarily hurting during arrest.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jononor 8y ago
Results may look different if you include other countries as well.
plorkyeran 8y ago
I've never understood how "the police have a systemic problem rather than this being an isolated problem" is supposed to be a defense of the police. That just makes it worse!
slededit 8y ago
I'm sorry but I don't think if you did this in Canada, Great Britain, or Sweden you'd get the same results at all. If you want to control for gun ownership Switzerland has very high rates and police shootings of civilians are nowhere near proportional to what happens in America.

izacus 8y ago

> No matter how much you want to blame the police for this, keep in mind that if you did this in a thousand neighborhoods with many different police officers and jurisdictions, many many many more people would die. In my eyes nearly 99% of the guilt is in the man that falsely called this in. No, sorry, but the first task for the police is to protect innocent civilians. Even if it causes harm to the policemen themselves (this is why they get all those jackets and equipment). Murdering them is not protecting, how can you defend the type of police that goes and kills a gamer in his house with no other proof than a phone call?

rhizome 8y ago
Even if it causes harm to the policemen themselves (this is why they get all those jackets and equipment) On the other hand, the First Rule of Policing is "get home for dinner."
- LunaSea 8y ago
  I'm a software developer but maybe I should get payed as a police officer on top my regular wage since that's my rule as well. Actually, you might as well give me a raise because I haven't killed anybody in the process either.
  - CompanionCuuube 8y ago
    The primary oath of doctors is "do no harm". Maybe you should get payed as a doctor too since that's your rule as well. You haven't killed anyone due to medical error either so you also deserve that raise.
    - timeseries2018 8y ago
      paid
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  Maybe we should demand better of a group of people we legally allowed to raid people's homes with deadly force.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    We do (for certain values of "we"). Get involved!
- izacus 8y ago
  > On the other hand, the First Rule of Policing is "get home for dinner." Is that in US? Because in my EU country, "Protect life" is pretty much what they're trained to do. That includes life of civilians, themselves and criminals in this order. Killing anyone is seen as a failure which results in an investigation into why hurting someone was necessary.
  - jki275 8y ago
    Yes, that's in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
- ruds 8y ago
  I find that rule nowhere in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
vorpalhex 8y ago
> the first task for the police is to protect innocent civilians The first task for police is to keep crime reduced. Notice the police don't usually arrive until after a crime has happened. Not to say they won't genuinely do their best to help you, but that isn't their job. Their job is to keep crime down. The only person responsible for your safety and protection is yourself. > Even if it causes harm to the policemen themselves A fair bit of cops get killed in the line of duty. A lot more are "lucky" and only get injured - that might mean losing an eye, permanent spinal cord injuries, or just losing a few fingers or toes. Sucks to be the police officer, also sucks to be their family. Cops deal with the worst of the worst on a daily basis - the rapists, the murderers, the drug dealers - and they have to constantly make life and death decisions. Is that junkie reaching into their pocket to grab their ID or a used needle to stab you with? Would you take a bullet for a serial rapist or a spouse abuser? It's easy to cast stones. It's a lot harder to be the one driving up to a potential hostage situation where innocent lives may depend on you. Sure, it might be a prank - or it could absolutely be a barricaded suspect with innocent family inside the house with them.

jokoon 8y ago

I think the phenomena of swatters is really highlighting how the police can be dangerous towards innocent people. > keep in mind that if you did this in a thousand neighborhoods Sure, but if so few people can cause so much damage only with a phone, do you really think the police is still not part of the cause of the problem? I don't think it's worth it to have the police react this way to a call. I'd rather see criminals get away than innocent die because of swatters. > People are not perfect. Exactly, and that's the same for swatters, you will always have a good supply of people idiot enough to do that. So what is the solution, putting future idiots in jail and let future innocents die of swatting? I'm not american and I often hear about police issues in the US.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> I think the phenomena of swatters is really highlighting how the police can be dangerous towards innocent people. The phenomenon of police shooting innocent people without a SWATter being involved seems to be a more powerful and direct illustration of that, but, sure.
CompanionCuuube 8y ago
> I'd rather see criminals get away than innocent die because of swatters. The emphasis on speed is not to arrest the criminal but to stop innocents from dying. Swatting calls always involve hostages.

altmind 8y ago

If the police kills an unarmed and innocent man, it definitely means that police in general is not acting efficiently. Right now, I see no movement with police higher officers to improve police response protocols to reduce fatal encounters. The narrative is not about "all people are different" and "some neighborhoods are bad" and not about "some officers can use more training"; I think there is an institutional problem, with police protocols that prescribe police chasing/hunting, swarming, incapacitating, shooting, all topped up with officers having no strong knowledge of the law, and not being punishable for lying on duty and unnecessarily hurting during arrest.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

jononor 8y ago

Results may look different if you include other countries as well.

plorkyeran 8y ago

I've never understood how "the police have a systemic problem rather than this being an isolated problem" is supposed to be a defense of the police. That just makes it worse!

slededit 8y ago

I'm sorry but I don't think if you did this in Canada, Great Britain, or Sweden you'd get the same results at all. If you want to control for gun ownership Switzerland has very high rates and police shootings of civilians are nowhere near proportional to what happens in America.